On the topic of thirst

[Scarlette Sadie]

Hello everyone, I've been playing Vintage Story for about a month and a half now and I'm loving it. I guess I just wanted to give my two cents in regards to a thirst system. Some people love the idea and some people hate it. I think I'm in the later. I would not like to manage another bar, but I would like to be able to do something with the juices we're able to make. So here's my idea. We already have a system for cold damage/freezing. I think there should be a system for heat exhaustion. Rather than a full on thirst bar, when it gets too hot drinking water or juice would help reduce heat stroke (along with other activities like jumping in water or sitting inside). That way it would be absolutely critical for you to have water when travelling through hot arid areas without having to juggle another bar. Anyway, loving this game and I have faith that if you do implement thirst it will be as thought out and robust as the rest of your game. 

[KookedEgg]

Maybe it could work as a more difficult mode yknow. Like, there's standard survival against the elements, the drifters, and starvation but then you add a "True Survival" type of mode where you have to worry a lot more about actual survival stuff. Idk, just an idea.

[LaundryOften]

I would love a thirst bar.  It could be enabled/disabled like anything else.  You could make different tiers of canteens with leather and metal and attach it to your belt somehow.  There could be a hotkey for drinking or it could work automatically without any animation, you would just need to keep it filled.

[Maelstrom]

A thirst bar, then a weight bar, then an illness bar, then a...

 

[ArtiKs]

Quote

"A thirst bar, then a weight bar, then an illness bar, then a..."

I'm starting to disagree on the thirst video. In some cases it doesn't work as a definitive answer on every thirst-related post... though I do get the point.
The only reason people keep suggesting Thirst, Weight and Illness, is because there are things already in-game that feel unfinished, and coincidentally, do fit with Thirst as a mechanic. The problem is not them being in the game, but the way the could be implemented.

Thirst = Temperature regulation (I know Clothes help with this too)
Players get Cold on winters and need firepits to rise their body heat. There are some extra useful aplications to this. Might need to make another separate post to make a point.
Thirst might even be related to pies, since you can fill 2 or 3 nutrition bars at the same time. If cold on winter, why not heat during summers, and so on. It's deliberate to have one and not the other, especially since seraphs are no longer heat resistant as they used to be. Getting wet under the rain? Why not make some of the already in-game HAT slow the heating and getting wet process?

Weight = Inventory Management
Players have multiple containers with different amounts of inventory spaces, sometimes reserved for certain types of items. Since there is a limit on the amount of backpacks you can put on, and have to take one off to carry a skep, they assume weight should also be linked to that capacity. This one for sure would be a hassle though, especially when looting ruins and the resonace archives. Like, NO i dont' want to make several trips but i do want the spoils in one go .
(In my opinion, as a mod this would be fine, and i think one exists already: "Simple Weight Mod" by KenigVovan)

Illness = Secondary effects
Alcohol already makes players dizzy and there is nothing else to it. Apparently alcohol has pros and cons irl, but in-game it's just for roleplay. If there is a secondary effect, this would open up space for potions related to the temporal stability, or simple teas from the many flowers implemented for extra speed, or slow down the stability loss, or whatever~

If people keep suggesting mainly thirst as a mechanic, is because they find that the current liquid uses are not enough. There is hot water, ice, salt, naussea/dizziness, alcohol, honey, milk... and it makes you think twice why on earth those mechanics are not connected to each other through them. If anything, this game can only get more features... especially on the diet and a reason to consume different nutrients. There's a ton of food sources and the only boost we get is extra HP.  If not in the vanilla game, then using mods. Let them make posts on Thirst. Maybe one of them finally proposes a nearly perfect implementation, who knows~ We can only dream :'v
 

[Maelstrom]

I'm not totally against more metrics to manage, so long as the added metric brings something meaningful to the game, such as the recently added air metric when swimming underwater.  Currently, weight is a subset of inventory and water a subset of nutrition (water is existent in ALL food so one could argue the hunger bar incorporates thirst already).

I am decidedly against a new metric/bar if it's just to simulate some aspect of reality (such as thirst to introduce a requirement to carry a liquid food item).  I'd prefer something like a stamina/fatigue meter that as it increases the ability to do things physically declines, such as reduced damage in combat, slower walking and mining speeds, etc.  Weight could be included in this meter where higher weight increases the speed of fatigue. This meter would also address another meter suggested - sleep.  Sleeping, in addition to emptying the hunger bar would also reduce the fatigue bar, restoring the ability to mine quickly or do greater damage in combat.

[Thorfinn]

1 hour ago, Maelstrom said:

Sleeping, in addition to emptying the hunger bar would also reduce the fatigue bar, restoring the ability to mine quickly or do greater damage in combat.

It should also deplete the hunger bar more slowly. Assuming it were to be implemented, of course. But you would also adjust things by, say, how warm the house was in winter -- being too cold is bad for hunger and bad for getting rest. It just seems to me that we are getting into simulation for simulation's sake, not because it adds game value. 

But Thirst, I don't see anything interesting, engaging, fun. Why play a game which isn't fun? I think I'd rather re-arrange my underwear drawer by color. At least then there's a sense of accomplishing something.

[Thorfinn]

19 hours ago, ArtiKs said:

[Weight] for sure would be a hassle though

Yes. A yard of dirt is about a ton and a half. If the seraph were human, realistically he would be able to carry somewhere around 1/30th of a block of dirt any distance at all, and not under any circumstances up a ladder built of sticks. Forget about quarrying stone -- some of the lightest rocks weigh in around 2-3 tons per 1m^3 block. Heck, even water comes in around 1800#. Please, please, please don't even think about suggesting using realistic weights.

I'm not opposed to suggesting thirst mods, and I doubt anyone else is, either. I'd just prefer to keep them in the modding discussion section until someone comes up with a mod that doesn't make one think of that video. For example, I love Expanded Foods, but it really doesn't add much functionality to the game, rather just RP variety. A recipe here and there that heals if you have other mods installed. Drying berries, I guess, which would be good as a mod by itself, or ideally integrated into the game as another way of preserving fruit. But mostly it's just different ways of putting a lot of time and effort to produce foods not in the base game but are more or less the equivalent of a food and a poultice of some type. 

Edited September 6, 2023 by Thorfinn

[Maelstrom]

59 minutes ago, Thorfinn said:

Yes. A yard of dirt is about a ton and a half. If the seraph were human, realistically he would be able to carry somewhere around 1/30th of a block of dirt any distance at all, and not under any circumstances up a ladder built of sticks. Forget about quarrying stone -- some of the lightest rocks weigh in around 2-3 tons per 1m^3 block. Heck, even water comes in around 1800#. Please, please, please don't even think about suggesting using realistic weights.

If that were the case we'd have a reality simulator and I doubt many people would be interested in that game.  Even survival games have to give up on reality to some degree.

[Jon20]

I like the idea of a thirst bar as a toggleable option for game world settings. Currently, there's really not a whole lot of reason for me to make alcohol in terns of game mechanics, apart from Aqua Vitae used for bandages and preservation, and even then the drunk visuals can be a little annoying sometimes.

Water mechanics could go hand in hand with both heat and cold. Hotter climates would drain your water quicker, especially if you're in exposed deserts or humid jungles. In the colder regions, making tea or other warm drinks would help consistently skite off the cold rather than cooking hot meals. This could also be another optional mechanic that people could toggle on or off to their liking.

It would give people a reason to make juice as well. Water taken from impure sources would need to be boiled, but juice is simply pressed and ready to go as well as giving a small amount of satiety, but could go bad faster than stored water. Alcohol like beer, wine and cider would be another great way of water preservation, and then having distilled drinks do the opposite and detract from hydration, or only give a very, very small amount of hydration.

[Thorfinn]

I think that's all true enough, @Jon20 and maybe that's where it is headed. Seems to me its going to require reworking some basic game assumptions. Can you drink straight from a water source block? Or do you have to cure a hide to make a wineskin, or clayform and fire a jug/bowl, or find and process a gourd somehow, or what?

You have only 10 inventory spaces at beginning of game. Most people find even the full array of hand baskets too limiting. Hopefully, if integrated, waterskins are treated more like bowls and buckets than bags, and that you don't have to give up at least 3 inventory spaces to carry liquids.

How do you handle the problem of an island spawn, where you are surrounded by salt water? Restart?

Edited September 7, 2023 by Thorfinn

[Jon20]

@Thorfinn Those are all good points. If it were up to me, drinking straight from the freshwater block would be something I'd add, but only giving small amounts of hydration per drink, since you're effectively cupping your hands and drinking like that. Having skins/clay jugs and eventually bottles would help, allowing the player to carry water supplies wherever they go.

Yeah, the current inventory is already pretty small honestly, I tend to use mods that enhance the backpack capacities. I think having them be simple inventory items would work, although a mod for something like a camelbak that you wear that holds a lot of water and you could drink from would be cool.

For islands, I think coconuts and rain collectors crafted from logs and plant fibres would help a lot, maybe any other plants that could give water as well. Once you've got materials, making a distillery could allow you to desalinate the water from the ocean, and maybe give a very small amount of salt as well.

For deserts, I think some kind of moisture collector might be interesting. I don't really know too much about it or even if it's doable with only primitive tech, I just remember seeing some in the Mad Max game made out of tarp and buckets and I thought they were a really cool idea. Maybe hides and buckets in this case, or some kind of large windmill looking structure that funnels water into a metal tank? Other than that, I think the main issue with deserts would always be the lack of food and water, or at least those resources in large amounts.

Edited September 8, 2023 by Jon20

[Maelstrom]

2 hours ago, Jon20 said:

For deserts, I think some kind of moisture collector might be interesting.

Sure it possible.

[DruidAgaric]

For the sake of realism and manageability of having both hunger and thirst, I think starvation could take days or weeks, perhaps losing health and strength along the way (or fat reserves?). And thirst over days.

 

It might be a good idea to have different types of water based on water body size, lakes are safer and cleaner than ponds. (Rivers and springs later in development)

 

If you drink untreated water you get a health penalty. The dirtier the water the greater the penalty. Pond water for example could save your life, but have serious consequences. 

 

Some ideas for penalties could be health and hunger bar reduction. If you drink lake water you get a small penalty, pond water a large penalty. If you drink more before the penalty times out it stacks and can kill you if you're health bar reduces to zero possible points. This is pretty realistic, I have drank Lake water in the woods a couple times after running out of water on the trail, I got hydrated but the next day was low energy and the runs. (Low health and low food bar) 

 

Another real life solution to slghtly dirty water is using moss as soak purifier and filter. Many mosses contain iodine and can kill pathogens. Still a container could be tough, maybe wooden cups to start with. (You can actually boil water in wood)

 

Spring water could be a natural clean water source as you can drink spring water in real life. You can also eat snow and ice, but that can be calorie intensive (warning up the frozen water internally) and dangerous in cold weather.

 

This could at least get you to clay boiling, at which point clean water would be easily available.

[Yozo]

I'm fully against. This will make the game cumbersome. Go sweat in a desert if you like it so much.