Containers, bags, and reeds

[redram]

So, the newest patch has bags, which is cool.  Is flax in the game though?  I've done a lot of first-day runs in a lot of worlds, and I have never seen it.  Crops in general seem kind of rare.  Only by running flat out, ignoring tools and ores, and spawning and staying in temperate areas, have I found more than one type of crop or berry bush in 1 day.  That might change of course but the situation led me to wonder what sort of breadth of containers we can expect.  Obviously flax bags, presumably leather ones too, and backpacks?  Silk bags?  Will material affect capacity?  Will the container slots be just mix-and-match whatever, or will there be some rules, like maybe only one backpack, and one belt at a time?  I'm further wondering if there's plans for specialized containers.  Like log piles for logs, ingot piles, etc.  Maybe tool belts for tools and weapons.  Special seed or produce containers. Burlap bags to hold saplings and berry bushes. 

Acknowledging I don't know what's planned, I'd like to suggest perhaps a lower tier, more common material, like reeds?  not minecraft style reeds which are actually more like sugarcane, but cattail reeds in temperate areas, or in more tropical areas actual reeds.  They could be much more common, and give another early game use for the flint knife.  They could make simple baskets (maybe 2 size; hip and back baskets) and maybe they only hold one or two slots each (3 or 4 for back), but it's better then nothing, and would help till actual flax or leather is obtained.   Fish could be kept in reed creels.  Reed baskets could hold produce.

Other uses for reeds might be decorative reed mats, maybe even reed bedrolls.  Reed hampers (small early chests) that could hold only certain items (not tiny stuff like seeds, nor super-heavy stuff like dirt blocks).  Rice hats for the look?  limited use fish traps?

Or maybe animals will be easier to find than flax, and leather not too terribly hard to make, and/or flax becomes more common and this suggestion is moot.  But I wanted to toss it out there anyway.  Regardless of if reeds become a crafting material, I think cattails/reeds would add some much-needed scenery. to water areas.

 

[Tyron]

YES! MANY MANY BAGS!

The crop spawning rate during worldgen is definitely not final yet, we'll need to carefully balance it for it to be challenging to acquire but also not too rare. Essential crops like flax should indeed probably be more common. In fact, I'll triple the chance right now. 

Ever played world of warcraft? That kind of bag system i'm dreaming about. So a big range of general purpose bags from 4 - 24 slots and then profession-specific bags that can hold more slot but only certain materials, i.e. Mining Bags, Herbalism bags, Farming bags, etc.
We could also definitely add some bags the player can not carry more than one of its kind of, if it makes sense for that particular bag. All in all this is indeed a wonderfully expandable system.

Log piles and Ingot piles I will most definitely add again. Those are like one of the most satisfying blocks in TFC
I'll probably also add peat and metal plate piles. The ingot pile model is already done (you wouldnt believe how much time we spent finding the right style...), I need an engine feature to get it into the game though.

I also agree there should be an easy way to get more slots early on. I was rather thinking of very crude leather bags though. Maybe reeds too, we already have a model for reeds but also awaits an engine feature before we can add it. 

 

 

 

 

 

[Saraty]

5 hours ago, redram said:

limited use fish traps?

Yes please! Fishing could make it easier to survive in the beginning.

Animals won't be commonly encountered (most certainly not in amounts You can find them in Minecraft). Also, it should be challenging to to hunt them down. At least that was our initial plan...  

[redram]

Oh yes, ingot piles are definitely a great thing (though it'd also be nice to have safes to keep them in)!  I've never played WoW (looked like too much of a time sink), but it's good to know the system is planned to be expansive.  I've actually never seriously played vanilla minecraft either.  Maybe 15 minutes after I got it.  I pretty much bought minecraft to play TFC after watching Etho's LPs of it.  Honestly I think what hooked me was the charcoal pile mechanic.  I saw that and thought 'that's a pretty esoteric thing.  I've gotta see what else these guys are doing!'  I love learning about old-time processes and trades.  Attention to detail will get peoples' attention, I think.

[Tyron]

Nice, we also found TFC through etho

Charcoal making was an awesome mechanic indeed.

[Ivan]

Yes, I like the idea of fish traps. Having devices that can be tended works for players and NPCs. Also that might act out outlying indicators of nearby settlement or dwelling.

[redram]

So in the course of brainstorming containers, I was wondering if VS will have the same stacking mechanics as MC.  Specifically, I'm told that in MC, the players inventory automatically has the largest stacks sizes available for any given item.  Which means containers can only have smaller stacks than inventory, and hence, they're always going to be inferior in that sense.  If possible, I think it would give more container options if stack sizes could be increased by container.  So for instance the general containers like bags and backpacks might have a x1 stack multiplier (same as the hotbar).   Since they can hold the most variety of items presumably, they have a standard capacity.  But specialized containers might hold more.  So for instance if you had a bushel basket, it might have not so many slots - 4 or something - but they might have x2 or even x3 stack multipliers, so they can hold fewer types of items, but more of them.   I really like the notion of options creating strategic dilemmas for players, and this kind of thing would add another layer and make them think.  So maybe for a specific task, they'd be better of going with fewer slots, but higher stack containers.  

Moving on, some wearable container ideas:
 

Spoiler

creel for fish and other marine food as well as fishing bait if that's ever a thing.  Bushel basket for vegetables, and grain sack for grains.  These all would only accepts raw versions of the food in question.  They'd have fewer slots, but x2 or more stack size, and would reduce spoilage.   If creel and bushel basket were reed based and fairly easy to get, it might allow food spoilage to be a bit more aggressive if in non-food containers.  It'd also be pretty cool if the basket and sack were place-able items that don't fit in chests.  Could greatly add to the scenery, I think.

Related to spoilage, what if berry bushes and saplings had a spoilage timer?  This represents that the player is just carrying them around bare-root, which will kill a plant pretty fast.  Also maybe their normal stack size is very low, like in the 1-4 range.   BUT, they can make a burlap bag, which holds drastically more, and also greatly reduces the 'spoilage'.  This would make bushes and trees harder to accumulate at first, making settling near native ones attractive.  These could be another place-able, non-chest item.  Maybe even show a sapling on top, if they contain any plants.

Other container ideas:

tool loops - these would only be useful if no other containers can hold tools.  The loop might be able to hold four tools. 

potion bag - I'm kind of assuming potions might be a thing, since alchemy was mentioned.  Assuming that's true, what if any time the player takes fall damage, there's a chance for potions carried in other contains (but not hotbar) to break.  The more fall damage, the more chance to break.  But potions in a potion bag are safe from fall damage.

Chicken crate - perhaps limited to only the back.  Crate would be able to hold several chickens.  Making it much easier to transport them distances.   There could even be an animal crate of some kind for smaller animals, like pigs or dogs, but maybe it only holds one at a time.  It might hold a few small animals, like squirrels or rabbits.  It'd be pretty fun if it were place-able, and even showed the animals inside when placed!

 

Also, some stationary container ideas:
 

Spoiler

 

Vault.  This could be the only container which holds ingots (besides an actual ingot stack of course).  This would be fairly involved to build, and preferably would have a functioning lock (combination, or key?), for multiplayer. 

Gem Case.  This assumes gems will be as plentiful as in TFC.  It could be a stack of drawers within one block, so maybe each drawer has 24 slots for gems (standard stack size).  This would allow compact storage of gems.

Storage Crate.  Along with barrels and grain sacks, this would complete the look of warehouses.  A crate would have only one slot, but it would have an immense stack multiplier, so it's one slot could hold more of one type of item, than a chest and all it's slots.  It has no GUI.  You either right click it with the type of item already inside, and it puts the entire stack inside, or you right click with anything else and it spits out a stack of the item.  It'd be for bulk storage of building materials and maybe ore, mostly.  Things you end up with tons of.   It'd be helpful if writing and a number automatically appear, indicating contents and number.  Or maybe the character must right click it with a writing utensil like charcoal or graphite, to get the writing benefit.

Hay Bale.  I think there are already textures for a hay bale, but I didn't know if this was a specific building block, or animal related, or sort of like a log pile for straw -  which is what I'd suggest.  Could be useful if animals need to be fed - they could eat out of the hay bale.

Meat Hook - this would be hung from the ceiling.  It would be a little like a crate, in that it would have one slot, so it only holds one type of meat.  The appearance changes based on general meat type.  Depending on how graphic you want to be, it could range from whole dressed carcasses (pig-sized, and cow-sized), to haunches, to plucked poultry.  Maybe even fish.  The hook enhances the preservation somewhat, because the meat is not resting on dusty dirty surfaces. 

Herb rack - this would also be ceiling-applied.  It would graphically show bunches of herbs dangling from it.  It would have as many slots as could be graphically represented. 4 or 9 I'd guess.  This would be a neat scenery thing, as well as a container.

Hide Rack or Bale - used to store leather.  The rack could be wall-applied.  It'd be neat if they dynamically arranged themselves in that case, sort of like chests.  So a 2x2 of hide racks shows up as a large 2x2 hide, like a bear.  two adjacent racks become a longer hide.  And one by itself is a small hide.  Each constituent rack contributes X slots to the overall 'container'. 

 

Another question, if there's going to be specialized containers, how will this be handled in the inventory interface?  If I understand correctly, the inventory will dynamically add and subtract slots based on containers worn.  Will each slot have a ghosted icon indicating which item type it matches?  So general containers would have nothing, mining container slots have a ghost pickaxe, while farming slots might have a ghost pitchfork?  a creel might have ghost fish icon?  And if I pick up an item off the ground, will it automatically prefer to be put in the slots it has an affinity for? 

Some other things to consider: what happens if a player removes a container?  All the items that were in the slots for that container will first try to go to the hotbar, and if no room there, then onto the ground?  Or will they remain inside the container?  Presumably the player will be able to carry containers on the hotbar.    If so can they access contents (assuming it holds the items even when not in container slots) from the hotbar, kind of how TFC does with vessels or barrels, as a separate interface screen from the inventory?  Or will they only be accessible when worn in the correct slots?   If I can carry for instance two food baskets, and when removed I can put them in my hotbar, will I be able to tell from the inventory screen which basket contains which items?  Or will I have to just remove one and see what disappears?  Maybe if the slots appear in a predictable fashion; for instance the container in the first slot (left-most) always shows it's slots first in inventory?  Just some details that came to mind.

 

[Tyron]

> If I understand correctly, the inventory will dynamically add and subtract slots based on containers worn. 

Yea, thats right.

> Will each slot have a ghosted icon indicating which item type it matches?  So general containers would have nothing, mining container slots have a ghost pickaxe, while farming slots might have a ghost pitchfork?  a creel might have ghost fish icon? 

I was thinking of a particular background color, but a ghosted icon might also work (or both together), we'll have to find out what works best.
 

> And if I pick up an item off the ground, will it automatically prefer to be put in the slots it has an affinity for? 

Thats right, that code already exists. Each inventory can declare how well suited it is for a particular item. When picking up or transfering an item the inventory always searches for the best suited inventory slot first.
 

>  Some other things to consider: what happens if a player removes a container? All the items that were in the slots for that container will first try to go to the hotbar, and if no room there, then onto the ground?  Or will they remain inside the container?

Right now, your inventory screen is merely listing up each bags inventory slots from left to right. The order is as you would expect - left to right, top to bottom. So the first slot in your inventory always belongs to the first bag in your bag-hotbar. When you remove the first bag, it also removes those slots from your inventory. All the items in those slots are lierally stored in the bag. So you can hand over a full bag to another player if you like.

I'm not sure yet how we'll handle vessels

[Saraty]

Absolutely adore the idea of animal crates!!!
Besides of what You already described I have yet another idea: It could be used to capture feral and wild baby animals. The crate containing special food item would be left on ground near animal herd and it will trap one small baby animal who comes to eat the food. This could be the only way (besides breeding) to acquire feral or wild baby animals. Feral animals babies would become domesticated if grown by player from young age on.