From Minecraft to Vintage Story - My Story

[Rudometkin]

Preface: I'm a nobody with nearly 0 followers and practically 0 social status. I played Minecraft since it was in early access (Now, I am shifting to Vintage Story). Here's my story on how I got to Vintage Story:

A few days ago, I made some opinionated videos that Minecraft torches should burn out, caves should actually be pitch black, and I mentioned food shouldn't be so easy to acquire. Of course, I was advocating for a more immersive survival experience by adding some actual depth into the game. For a long time now, I have been saying Minecraft is among the worst survival games on the market, while it has among the most potential. The game is shallow in terms of immersion, but the overall Minecraft community defends it. So, right out of the gate, we can see I'm naturally going to be fighting against the Minecraft community for every instance of 'rebalancing' I push for.

Then, I made my most recent video, which was a little issue with the broken campfires in Minecraft, about how they burned infinitely and thus cooked food infinitely, therefore being unbalanced, and 'ruining' the game. I thought, "this campfire issue is a small leak in the sinking ship that is Minecraft, but I'll cover it anyway".

The video blew up. It hit 1.7k views with over 70 comments, most of which were people ridiculing my take (does nothing to me - I even spent about an hour and a half debating the commenters in my videos). But in some of the comments, I was recommended to try out Vintage Story. They said it's basically already everything I'm wanting in Minecraft.

So, I checked out the trailer for Vintage Story, and I immediately became hooked. It is fair to say VS captures the exact vision I have. I haven't played yet, but I bought 4 copies of the game for some family members and I, and I have done some studying on the world setting options, and I'm happy that this team is working on this powerhouse of a game, which might soon end up being my favorite.

So, this is where I belong. I'm excited to be a member of this community. Instead of spending the majority of my energy over there, I want to spend it here. I look forward to meeting you all and getting into Vintage Story!

[DejFidOFF]

2 hours ago, Rudometkin said:

Preface: I'm a nobody with nearly 0 followers and practically 0 social status. I played Minecraft since it was in early access (Now, I am shifting to Vintage Story). Here's my story on how I got to Vintage Story:

A few days ago, I made some opinionated videos that Minecraft torches should burn out, caves should actually be pitch black, and I mentioned food shouldn't be so easy to acquire. Of course, I was advocating for a more immersive survival experience by adding some actual depth into the game. For a long time now, I have been saying Minecraft is among the worst survival games on the market, while it has among the most potential. The game is shallow in terms of immersion, but the overall Minecraft community defends it. So, right out of the gate, we can see I'm naturally going to be fighting against the Minecraft community for every instance of 'rebalancing' I push for.

Then, I made my most recent video, which was a little issue with the broken campfires in Minecraft, about how they burned infinitely and thus cooked food infinitely, therefore being unbalanced, and 'ruining' the game. I thought, "this campfire issue is a small leak in the sinking ship that is Minecraft, but I'll cover it anyway".

The video blew up. It hit 1.7k views with over 70 comments, most of which were people ridiculing my take (does nothing to me - I even spent about an hour and a half debating the commenters in my videos). But in some of the comments, I was recommended to try out Vintage Story. They said it's basically already everything I'm wanting in Minecraft.

So, I checked out the trailer for Vintage Story, and I immediately became hooked. It is fair to say VS captures the exact vision I have. I haven't played yet, but I bought 4 copies of the game for some family members and I, and I have done some studying on the world setting options, and I'm happy that this team is working on this powerhouse of a game, which might soon end up being my favorite.

So, this is where I belong. I'm excited to be a member of this community. Instead of spending the majority of my energy over there, I want to spend it here. I look forward to meeting you all and getting into Vintage Story!

Great choice ! A was bored about Minecraft after just 2 years of playing.. Easy, repetitive and as you mentoin "the worst survival game", but on the other hand good game for kids to start..

[Rudometkin]

30 minutes ago, DejFidOFF said:

Great choice ! A was bored about Minecraft after just 2 years of playing.. Easy, repetitive and as you mentoin "the worst survival game", but on the other hand good game for kids to start..

One big factor that makes Minecraft too easy is the ability to block yourself off from enemies. A natural solution that came to my mind is that you perhaps shouldn't be able to place blocks if within a certain radius of hostile mobs.

I'm curious to learn how VS handles this, if it is even a problem at all.

I agree, Minecraft is great for kids now. I'm more willing to give up on it now that I have found my community here with VS  

[Maelstrom]

First - welcome to VS!

Tyron (the sole primary developer) constantly tweaks the mob AI regarding how creative we can cheese the mobs.  In the latest release the mobs are less subject to the cheesy pillar up a few blocks and the AI has a mental breakdown.  We'll let you figure out how to deal with the initial baddies of wolves and bears.  

[ifoz]

4 hours ago, Rudometkin said:

I'm curious to learn how VS handles this, if it is even a problem at all.

I preface this by saying, welcome to Vintage!!

Secondly, in answer to this, while you can indeed do this, enemies have some tricks up their sleeves. Many are fast and agile, some have ranged attacks, and some can climb.
The 'story locations' - big 'one of each per world' lore-relevant experiences, are also 'claimed', meaning you cannot break or alter them, so you'll be fighting on the turf of the enemies without the ability to place or break things.

[DejFidOFF]

14 hours ago, Maelstrom said:

First - welcome to VS!

Tyron (the sole primary developer) constantly tweaks the mob AI regarding how creative we can cheese the mobs.  In the latest release the mobs are less subject to the cheesy pillar up a few blocks and the AI has a mental breakdown.  We'll let you figure out how to deal with the initial baddies of wolves and bears.  

Yes sometime in bad way. Try go out in light temporal storm with just leather armor in VS 1.20.pre11 you get some fun !

[Thorfinn]

8 minutes ago, DejFidOFF said:

Try go out in light temporal storm with just leather armor in VS 1.20.pre11

Pre-11? Aw, jeepers I'm 2 behind.

[Maelstrom]

1 hour ago, DejFidOFF said:

Yes sometime in bad way. Try go out in light temporal storm with just leather armor in VS 1.20.pre11 you get some fun !

Leather armor is just plain trash, imo.  I don't bother with anything except gambeson before iron/steel, except sometimes I'll make some improvised armor early on.

[Rudometkin]

16 hours ago, Maelstrom said:

First - welcome to VS!

Tyron (the sole primary developer) constantly tweaks the mob AI regarding how creative we can cheese the mobs.  In the latest release the mobs are less subject to the cheesy pillar up a few blocks and the AI has a mental breakdown.  We'll let you figure out how to deal with the initial baddies of wolves and bears.  

Thank you. It's good to hear the primary developer cares so much about this, and thank you for leaving it for me to figure the game out.

I've heard wolves are the notorious ones. At this point I'm thinking if I'm not near one, I'll try to not run into one. I'm thinking early weapons and running speed won't cut it. Maybe there's something that repels them. Maybe I'll see if I can set a bait trap, or just bait distraction to lead them away from my area. If I am even able to establish an area!

[Maelstrom]

You're welcome, although I have an ulterior motive.  I am eagerly awaiting your next post complaining about how things went wrong so I can respond with some mirth. And maybe some snark. 

[DejFidOFF]

1 hour ago, Maelstrom said:

Leather armor is just plain trash, imo.  I don't bother with anything except gambeson before iron/steel, except sometimes I'll make some improvised armor early on.

leather armor is ust fine 60% protection and no penalties..

[Grummsh]

51 minutes ago, DejFidOFF said:

leather armor is ust fine 60% protection and no penalties..

I second this! Leather armor when you get to making leather is imo the best to just put on and run explore stuff. Like DejFidoff said is has no negative stats like -speed ir - healing and for the stuff you can encounter on the surface (weak drifters, wolves even bears) it helps mitigate dmg to the point its not an issue anymore.

That said i havent played any 1.20 prerealeses so maybe the new mobs chage that to a degree.

[DejFidOFF]

39 minutes ago, Grummsh said:

I second this! Leather armor when you get to making leather is imo the best to just put on and run explore stuff. Like DejFidoff said is has no negative stats like -speed ir - healing and for the stuff you can encounter on the surface (weak drifters, wolves even bears) it helps mitigate dmg to the point its not an issue anymore.

That said i havent played any 1.20 prerealeses so maybe the new mobs chage that to a degree.

I play 1.20pre a lot and well, full leather armor is in 1.20 like just improvised in 1.19.8, because new mobs..

[Grummsh]

1 hour ago, DejFidOFF said:

I play 1.20pre a lot and well, full leather armor is in 1.20 like just improvised in 1.19.8, because new mobs..

Damn good to know what to expect then

[Maelstrom]

leather armor durability is horrid.  The protection and penalties are great, but it doesn't last long.  Give me gambeson any day.

[LadyWYT]

On 11/6/2024 at 2:36 PM, Rudometkin said:

For a long time now, I have been saying Minecraft is among the worst survival games on the market, while it has among the most potential. The game is shallow in terms of immersion, but the overall Minecraft community defends it.

I mostly agree with the sentiment, but I would also argue that Minecraft isn't really a survival game anymore, nor does it really try to be(nor should it). It is, for the most part, a building game with a few simple survival elements and other bits thrown in to make it more interesting, and personally that's what I enjoy about it. It's easy to jump in, build pretty much whatever I want, with a few challenges to keep it interesting, and then put aside for a while to tinker with other things. As for Minecraft's immersion, I think a lot of that hinges on how much you put into the world yourself, otherwise there's not a lot there in terms of lore or story to engage with. In short--it's a great blank canvas that appeals to a wide audience.

Vintage Story, in contrast, is very much a survival game with a solid range of building mechanics to go with it. It also isn't shy about knocking the player down and kicking them in the shins, so to speak, when it comes to difficulty(assuming the player did not adjust the settings to easy mode). It makes the player actually work for each advancement they make, though at the same time the effort required to progress doesn't feel unfair. Vintage Story also handles world lore very differently, in that it has a specific story to tell, makes this very clear to the player...and at the same time makes the player go find and put the pieces together themselves. The building system is also better than a lot of similar games, due to the how much customization the chisel mechanic allows.

Overall, I enjoy both games a lot, and which one I choose to play depends on what I want to do. Vintage Story I enjoy a lot more for the challenge and immersive world/story. Minecraft I enjoy more for how easy it is to just jump in and start building(not in creative mode!) whatever fantastical thing strikes my fancy, which I find much harder to do in Vintage Story.

 

[Rudometkin]

On 11/6/2024 at 9:23 PM, ifoz said:

I preface this by saying, welcome to Vintage!!

Secondly, in answer to this, while you can indeed do this, enemies have some tricks up their sleeves. Many are fast and agile, some have ranged attacks, and some can climb.
The 'story locations' - big 'one of each per world' lore-relevant experiences, are also 'claimed', meaning you cannot break or alter them, so you'll be fighting on the turf of the enemies without the ability to place or break things.

Thank you!

Cool, I like to hear that about the story locations.

I'm only 2 in-game nights into VS (no combative confrontations yet, except fighting my hunger), but I'm curious. Do you see the ability to block off baddies as a problem? I haven't even seen a confrontation yet, except for the bear shown in the trailer video.

The idea just recently occurred to me - we could have block placement be a timed process as a world creation option. Perhaps holding down your mouse button to place a block takes it about two seconds to fill up a placement bar before the block places.

This would of course eliminate rapid blocking enemies and the cheesy single block pillars.

[Maelstrom]

16 hours ago, LadyWYT said:

It also isn't shy about knocking the player down and kicking them in the shins

Well, that's a polite way of putting it.  

[ifoz]

3 hours ago, Rudometkin said:

The idea just recently occurred to me - we could have block placement be a timed process as a world creation option. Perhaps holding down your mouse button to place a block takes it about two seconds to fill up a placement bar before the block places.

This would of course eliminate rapid blocking enemies and the cheesy single block pillars.

This could be interesting to see. Personally though it would grind my gears as a builder to have to place blocks at a snail's pace, so I'd rather not play with this enabled. 

I don't really view blocking enemies as an issue though. Usually they're too quick or you're in a cave, and if you can manage to block them without getting hit, that takes some skill on it's own.
The larger issue with MC mobs that makes blocking them so effective is the fact that the main cast of hostile mobs were never balanced with sprinting in mind at all.

The story locations have no ability to place blocks, so I'd say they're 'combat on even turf' whereas in the rest of the world, it's very much up to your own skills, wits, and choices within combat encounters.

Edited November 8, 2024 by ifoz

[Rudometkin]

On 11/7/2024 at 1:56 PM, Maelstrom said:

You're welcome, although I have an ulterior motive.  I am eagerly awaiting your next post complaining about how things went wrong so I can respond with some mirth. And maybe some snark. 

Ah, well, I can only hope that the wolves and bears are this upfront about their motives.

I might actually have a fair chance at battle.

[LadyWYT]

6 hours ago, Maelstrom said:

Well, that's a polite way of putting it.  

I mean...I thought about writing something else, but opted for the politer statement.

9 hours ago, Rudometkin said:

Do you see the ability to block off baddies as a problem?

Yes and no--it depends on the context, similar to other exploits/unintended methods of gameplay. Blocking off dangerous areas when possible makes a lot of sense, and it's not really possible(or advisable) to prevent the player from plunking down blocks to serve as obstacles in a game that encourages building. In reality, the player should be figuring out new, better ways to solve the challenges that the game throws at them, and not in constant danger of being on death's door. Where it really becomes a problem though, is when the exploit returns a significant benefit for very little investment, compared to the intended gameplay loop. On the other hand, I would also say that hinges somewhat on playstyle; some players find the most enjoyment in finding the absolute most efficient methods of acquiring resources and completing tasks the most fun thing to do in the game. Other players will find much less enjoyment from doing that same thing. I think it depends a lot on whether an exploit is effective enough that players feel forced to pick that option over the intended option. I don't think it's possible to completely eliminate exploits, but as long as players don't feel forced to utilize it over the intended gameplay functions then the exploits aren't really that bad.

5 hours ago, ifoz said:

I don't really view blocking enemies as an issue though. Usually they're too quick or you're in a cave, and if you can manage to block them without getting hit, that takes some skill on it's own.
The larger issue with MC mobs that makes blocking them so effective is the fact that the main cast of hostile mobs were never balanced with sprinting in mind at all.

The story locations have no ability to place blocks, so I'd say they're 'combat on even turf' whereas in the rest of the world, it's very much up to your own skills, wits, and choices within combat encounters.

I think this is where the new mobs and their tactics will come into play. Some enemies, like the drifters, will always be a fairly straightforward fight and not much of a challenge. However, other enemies could have different methods of coming after you(which we see being added in 1.20), making standard player tactics much less effective and requiring the player to think of something else in order to stay alive. Things get even more interesting when you start mixing the enemy types together.

One thing I do like about Vintage Story though--it takes its story locations very seriously by stopping the player from tampering with the builds. To complete the area, you have to complete all the puzzles in the intended fashion while, as you pointed out, fighting the monsters on their own turf. The player can't just whip out a pickaxe and dig through to the goodies at the end of the dungeon.

1 hour ago, Rudometkin said:

I might actually have a fair chance at battle.

I'm not sure I would call any fight in Vintage Story a fair one.

[Rudometkin]

On 11/7/2024 at 10:12 PM, LadyWYT said:

I mostly agree with the sentiment, but I would also argue that Minecraft isn't really a survival game anymore, nor does it really try to be(nor should it).

Last week, I would have come back with the rebuttal: "If Minecraft survival mode shouldn't try to be a survival game, then it should drop the 'survival' title."

But now that I have spent a few nights in Vintage Story, I'm happy letting Minecraft be whatever it wants to be. My heart is in VS.

[Rudometkin]

On 11/8/2024 at 4:53 PM, ifoz said:

This could be interesting to see. Personally though it would grind my gears as a builder to have to place blocks at a snail's pace, so I'd rather not play with this enabled. 

This is refreshing for me to hear, because I'm so used to hearing the, "Tedious! Total waste of time!" types of objections for ideas like this. Many people would say 'two seconds to place a block' is "tedious", a "total waste of time", a "horrible, ridiculous idea".

Yet they give no objection to 'six seconds to break a block'.

I agree, for building, it would be a net loss. 100 blocks placed would equal to 3-1/3 minutes of placing time. Of course, this could be solved creatively. Perhaps there are buffs for building, through food, herbs, potions, jewelry, etc. Also, this calls for a new 'builder' class.

Overall the new mechanic increases the net difficulty of the game. That in itself loses many supporters, because frankly, many people cannot seem to comprehend the concept of rebalancing, but not this community. I do not intend to suggest this game needs more difficulty here, and this community is very refreshing and understanding in this matter from what I've seen, which I am very pleased with.

Of course there is nothing wrong with not wanting to play it. I'm just thinking out loud if it were added  

 

Edited November 11, 2024 by Rudometkin

[ifoz]

16 minutes ago, Rudometkin said:

I agree, for building, it would be a net loss. 100 blocks placed would equal to 3-1/3 minutes of placing time. Of course, this could be solved creatively. Perhaps there are buffs for building, through food, herbs, potions, jewelry, etc. Also, this calls for a new 'builder' class.

I think if it were added, it'd be better as an optional setting on world creation (Vintage is a big fan of having game-changing features be optional, which is really nice).
Buffs currently aren't properly in the game, though devs do plan for a buff/debuff system in the future. Alchemy is also planned, which would go hand-in-hand with such a system.
Buffs from jewellery.. I'm a little more on the fence. This game's world doesn't really have magic (there is "magic" tech, but it's rooted in irl medieval alchemy lore), so getting buffs from jewellery probably wouldn't fit the world and lore.

Builder class is something I'm kinda against though, just because limiting creativity behind an arbitrary decision isn't the best way to go about it. Especially if I wanted to choose another class for fashion, backstory or gameplay, but then am forced to choose builder just so I personally can enjoy the game's creative aspects more. I do think it would be much better to have as an optional world setting for those who want it.

Anyway, this community is pretty good with discussing ideas and offering feedback rather than outright dismissing them. 

[LadyWYT]

2 hours ago, ifoz said:

Builder class is something I'm kinda against though, just because limiting creativity behind an arbitrary decision isn't the best way to go about it. Especially if I wanted to choose another class for fashion, backstory or gameplay, but then am forced to choose builder just so I personally can enjoy the game's creative aspects more. I do think it would be much better to have as an optional world setting for those who want it.

I would think a lumberjack or stonemason would make for better building-oriented classes, instead of lumping everything into one defacto builder class. Both of those classes could probably have other benefits outside of building advantages too. For instance, lumberjacks would probably have a bonus to seedling drop rates, tree chopping, and charcoal yield. Stonemason is a bit trickier, but I'd wager they could have a chance of getting an extra block of stone when quarrying blocks. I'd also wager that you could remove the mining bonus from the Blackguard and replace it with something else, and give the mining speed bonus to the Stonemason instead.

As for what to give Blackguards in place of the mining speed bonus...I've been tinkering with custom classes of late, and if I had to rework them, I think I might increase the bonuses they have to health, melee damage, and movement speed when armored. Give them a total movement speed penalty of -10%(so their base speed is 90% of normal), and a bigger range that animals/enemies can detect them. The forage penalty...eh...keep it for the challenge and flavor, but that could also be removed as I've not really found it to be much of a concern. In this scenario though, it's the stealth penalty and movement speed that are bigger hazards, in my opinion. The greater range of enemy detection means that wildlife and monsters will have an easier time spotting you before you spot them, giving them a chance to either flee or attack. In regards to the movement speed penalty, -10% doesn't sound like much, until you consider that faster mobs like bears and moose can already outrun the 100% player in many cases. 90% movement speed, in my experience so far, means that you're probably going to have to fight whatever is chasing you and hope for the best instead of running, unless you have very fast reflexes and terrain that you could possibly use to your advantage. Factor in the new faster monsters, and improvements to creature pathfinding, and that small penalty to movement speed suddenly starts to have a bigger impact that what might be expected.