Forest dangers in place of constant wolf presence

[Josiah Gibbonson]

Am I the only one who doesn't really care for the fact that wolves are the most present danger in forests? Like, almost unnaturally so. Sure, there's bears. Fair enough. But seeing a pack of wolves everywhere I look is a little bit odd.

 

Maybe anchor most wolf spawns to naturally spawning "wolf den'" structures, with a few wanderers here and there.

You'd still have bears, sure. But to make up for the lack of wolf danger, I'd add the following:

Hornet's nests: like bees nests, but instead of giving honey they give you a healthy reminder why nobody likes them. Get too close and they'll chase and sting you for no reason! 

A few snakes: Some with, some without venom, to keep you on edge.

 

Poison Ivy: Don't walk in it, unless you want to take extra damage from all sources for several days.

 

Thorn bushes: Do you really want me to explain what happens when you touch one?

 

Leopards or pumas: Like wolves, just kitty cat. 

 

Poisonous spiders: tiny spiders that can bite if you run into their webs.Toggleable option to make the small things less spider-like for those who're scared of spiders.

 

Mosquitos: they reside near ponds and lakes in forests, and only serve to be a nuisance by damaging the player a tiny bit. A single smack will kill them! Also, ambiant mosquito noises.

 

Bobcats: Dogs just can't have all the fun. Don't get too close unless you want to feel the pain. . .although in a forest, it's hard to do. 

 

Rats: food for some animals, pests for you. Keep your storage containers away from them. 

-------

 

It'd be a lot of work, but it'd add some flavor to the dangers of a forest, rather than a majority of it being wolf spam. 

 

 

Edited March 22, 2025 by Josiah Gibbonson

[Craftcoat]

Black widows, skunks and coyotes are specific to the new world.

 

With vintage story being set in 1400 in the old world those dont really fit the setting.

 

 

[Josiah Gibbonson]

23 minutes ago, Craftcoat said:

Black widows, skunks and coyotes are specific to the new world.

 

With vintage story being set in 1400 in the old world those dont really fit the setting.

Might be immersion breaking for some, but I wouldn't question it. Didn't even know it was set in the 1400's, old world lol. Will change those three dangers to something else.

[Thorfinn]

About half of those are covered between Primitive Survival and Wildcraft. Have you tried them yet?

Edited March 22, 2025 by Thorfinn

[Josiah Gibbonson]

3 minutes ago, Thorfinn said:

About half of those are covered between Primitive Survival and Wildcraft. Have you tried them yet?

No, but I should. But I don't see why good ideas should be locked behind mods that saw they were good ideas and did them already. 

[Thorfinn]

They don't have to be locked away. Though that was kind of the point of making modding an integral part of the game. Those who like those kinds of things can easily add them without affecting others' gameplay.

Personally, I don't find forests dangerous, other than the holes going to the center of the earth. Wolves are easy to kill or run away from, and bears are essentially zero risk in a forest because there are so many places they cannot go.

Edited March 22, 2025 by Thorfinn

[Josiah Gibbonson]

3 minutes ago, Thorfinn said:

They don't have to be locked away. Though that was kind of the point of making modding an integral part of the game

Then I don't see why the devs even have a suggestions forum if they're just going to let modders implement 90% of the "good" suggestions...

3 minutes ago, Thorfinn said:

Personally, I don't find them dangerous, other than the holes going to the center of the earth. Wolves are easy to kill or run away from, and bears are essentially zero risk in a forest because there are so many places they cannot go.

Even more reason to spice up forests eventually. Sounds like a bad case of "we've had the same two mobs forever so they're no longer serving their intended purpose to veteran players." 

[Thorfinn]

Oh, don't get me wrong. The suggestion forum is for that, indeed. Suggestions that mesh well into the vision get added to the roadmap. Some get fast-tracked, like those who thought the travel involved for story content was excessive. (To be fair, maybe it was. If you are not the sandbox type, or don't enjoy exploration, it's pretty hard to figure out much of anything to do in a couple days of overland movement.)

Bears have not been around all that long. 1.17, maybe? I think if you played cold start game, polar bears existed in 1.16. So, what, two whole versions without a new foe? And when those dropped, the new models were stunning? Thing is, for everyone who thinks we need badgers and mountain lions and killer rabbits, there are several who would like fewer monsters. Who think it's absurd that all the wildlife is hyper-aggressive. It's always easier to add a "Fauna of the ..." mod than it is to edit monsters out of the base game. You can much more easily tune the game to your preferences. 

[Josiah Gibbonson]

7 minutes ago, Thorfinn said:

Bears have not been around all that long. 1.17, maybe? I think if you played cold start game, polar bears existed in 1.16. So, what, two whole versions without a new foe?

Really? Wow, didn't know that. Well, better than just wolves, definitely.

7 minutes ago, Thorfinn said:

Thing is, for everyone who thinks we need badgers and mountain lions and killer rabbits, there are several who would like fewer monsters.

I get it- but this suggestion isn't to make the game harder, just more diverse. Make less wolves, and fill in the missing difficulty with new dangers. I don't want a harder experience for people, just a more diverse one!  But personally if you want less of that stuff, just turn creature aggression off lol.

 

I'm not against modding, i just dislike how mods have to update themselves, sometimes they don't work right with others you want, and they can hinder performance since several mods aren't optimized to run together. And once I add one mod, I can't help but add like fifty more. And then if I can't get them to work properly I get depressed and play something else for several months before trying again. 

11 minutes ago, Thorfinn said:

Who think it's absurd that all the wildlife is hyper-aggressive.

It is kinda absurd bears are so aggressive, they're rather docile in real life contrary to popular belief.

 

Except polar bears. Polar bears will kill you

[Thorfinn]

Fair enough. I try to avoid "code" mods by any but people with a proven track record of keeping them updated with API changes. But if you carefully chose amongst mostly "content" mods, there are a lot that don' t ever need updating. Step Up worked for, I don't know, 3,4  years, before it needed an update. Some of the mods on my internal server haven't been updated since 1.14.

It's also true that a lot of people overwrote files rather than patching them, causing tons of conflicts. But if you look at a mod that is patches, it's probably going to be compatible, though some of the results might be weird. You have one proper patch mod that enhances drifters and another that nerfs them, it's going to depend which loads first. Believe me, I get the frustration. I'm just not sure what to do about it other than education of the user base or making mods much more difficult, c.f., Dwarf Fortress.

[LadyWYT]

33 minutes ago, Josiah Gibbonson said:

Then I don't see why the devs even have a suggestions forum if they're just going to let modders implement 90% of the "good" suggestions...

If I'm recalling correctly, Tyron mentioned in an interview that the devs watch the modding community fairly close to see what's happening. Ideas that are well-made and fit the game vision, as well as have enough traction, are more likely to be added to the game in some form or another(if the modder isn't hired by Anego Studios themselves), however it's also not a guarantee.

I'd also argue that "good suggestion" is somewhat relative, depending on one's gameplay preferences. What may be a good idea to one might be horrible to another. And sometimes an idea wouldn't be great for the base game, but would make a great mod. I suppose I would cite Primitive Survival as a prime example of that. There are several things in that mod that would be a good fit for the base game(like the smoker and the pelts/hunting trophies), however, there are also things in it that I don't think fit the base game that well (such as the knothole lootboxes, relics, and monsters).

Anyway, enough of that, on to the original post!

2 hours ago, Josiah Gibbonson said:

Hornet's nests: like bees nests, but instead of giving honey they give you a healthy reminder why nobody likes them. Get too close and they'll chase and sting you for no reason! 

This could actually be pretty entertaining, especially if you're playing with a friend that doesn't know the difference between a hornet's nest and a beehive.

2 hours ago, Josiah Gibbonson said:

A few snakes: Some with, some without venom, to keep you on edge.

Also a good fit, though I'd be curious how a venom mechanic would work. Maybe it just results in a weakness/fatigue debuff for a short time, with more serious bites draining significant chunks of health. If/when an alchemy mechanic is added, that could offer some counterplay to getting bitten, but at the very least it would be an interesting, albeit a bit easy to avoid, hazard early on.

2 hours ago, Josiah Gibbonson said:

Poison Ivy: Don't walk in it, unless you want to take extra damage from all sources for several days.

Interesting debuff idea, I like it. An alchemy system for crafting medicines/potions would offer counterplay here again. However, I think the stronger idea you mentioned later with:

2 hours ago, Josiah Gibbonson said:

Thorn bushes: Do you really want me to explain what happens when you touch one?

Thorns are a bit easier to identify and avoid, I think, plus thorny plants remain a danger year-round. That's not to say that poison ivy isn't dangerous year-round either, but it tends to be more of a problem when it's all leafed out.

2 hours ago, Josiah Gibbonson said:

Leopards or pumas: Like wolves, just kitty cat. 

Big cats in general, really. Fauna of the Stone Age does a really good job of adding them--they're quite fast and will actively stalk the player, so outrunning or otherwise ignoring them aren't really options if you end up with one nearby.

2 hours ago, Josiah Gibbonson said:

Poisonous spiders: tiny spiders that can bite if you run into their webs.Toggleable option to make the small things less spider-like for those who're scared of spiders.

I think the insect "models" are really too small to be adding them as a proper hazard. Better to leave them as ambience/utility(bees and termites), and let snakes fill in the venom gap.

2 hours ago, Josiah Gibbonson said:

Mosquitos: they reside near ponds and lakes in forests, and only serve to be a nuisance by damaging the player a tiny bit. A single smack will kill them! Also, ambiant mosquito noises.

We kinda already have the ambience version with the midge swarms. Otherwise, I think it has the same problem as the previous idea--insect models are probably too small for the source of the negative effect to be readily apparent.

2 hours ago, Josiah Gibbonson said:

Bobcats: Dogs just can't have all the fun. Don't get too close unless you want to feel the pain. . .although in a forest, it's hard to do. 

Eh...maybe a hazard for your chickens, but I dunno about posing a real threat to the player. Not that bobcats can't be fierce, but they're also rather small, more in line with the threat that foxes pose in the game. Much like foxes, I'd expect them to prey on smaller animals and generally try to avoid the player instead of attack.

2 hours ago, Josiah Gibbonson said:

Rats: food for some animals, pests for you. Keep your storage containers away from them. 

Could be food for you too, if you're desperate enough. I dunno about adding a pest mechanic to ruin food stores though. It could be an interesting challenge, but it could also prove to be a massive pain in the rear too. The latter seems more likely.

20 minutes ago, Josiah Gibbonson said:

It is kinda absurd bears are so aggressive, they're rather docile in real life contrary to popular belief.

Wildlife in general typically tries to avoid humans in the place, however, I think there's a lore reason for why predators are so aggressive--moreso than the player simply not being human. I'm not sure that the exact reason has been given, but I would assume it probably has something to do with the temporal anomalies and monsters setting creatures more on edge, to the point they actively attack what they perceive as a threat.

But I mean, the general reason is "videogame rules", and probably just that kind of behavior code not yet being developed. Gotta be some early-game challenge, and bears and wolves are a staple hazard.

24 minutes ago, Josiah Gibbonson said:

I'm not against modding, i just dislike how mods have to update themselves, sometimes they don't work right with others you want, and they can hinder performance since several mods aren't optimized to run together. And once I add one mod, I can't help but add like fifty more. And then if I can't get them to work properly I get depressed and play something else for several months before trying again. 

I think it's just a drawback of playing with mods, really. They're a great way to customize a game to one's liking, or extend the life of a game in general, but they don't always work and they aren't always optimized as well as they should be.

[Thorfinn]

20 minutes ago, LadyWYT said:

I suppose I would cite Primitive Survival as a prime example of that. There are several things in that mod that would be a good fit for the base game(like the smoker and the pelts/hunting trophies), however, there are also things in it that I don't think fit the base game that well (such as the knothole lootboxes, relics, and monsters).

That's an excellent point!

I'd love to have the smoker broken out. Primitive Survival - Fishing would also be a great sub-mod, as would Primitive Survival - Farming, with irrigation and earthworms. In a similar vein, I'd like Expanded Foods - The Basics, which I would probably put in Vanilla Plus, But Expanded Foods - 87 Variants on Poached Eggs Au Gratin, I'd use only on some specialty server.

[PineReseen]

I'm not sure most of these would fit Vintage Story, spiders and mosquitoes are quite small and would be hard to spot and attack, and bobcats/pumas are both in the Americas from what I know.

Leopards though, would probably be a good addition to dry climates since from what is on the wiki, there are only 2 dry-climate predators, and one of them is the bear.

Hornets could spice up the forests a bit if they're big enough to hit, so why not?

Snakes in temperate climates would probably be neutral and hunt rodents and other small animals, and would not do a great deal of damage. I still do like this idea nevertheless, as they could be a threat to unprotected chickens or their eggs!

Rats would probably be an ambience animal, but the food (or/and crop) stealing mechanic could be toggled on when generating the world. They'd also provide a food source for snakes.

Poison ivy and Thorn bushes could encounter the problem of being too difficult to spot and thus making players feel like they're taking random damage, but if implemented correctly, they could be an interesting addition.

I do agree that there is too little variety in predators smaller than bears though, and it would be a worthwhile improvement to add more hostile animals.
Also, lynxes would be old-world specific, and fit the hostile animal criteria quite well. (Probably what you meant by bobcats, they looks really similar, and lynxes do include bobcats in their definition)

Edited March 22, 2025 by PineReseen
Forgot to mention rats

[Broccoli Clock]

38 minutes ago, PineReseen said:

Poison ivy and Thorn bushes could encounter the problem of being too difficult to spot and thus making players feel like they're taking random damage, but if implemented correctly, they could be an interesting addition.

 

We already have metal spikes on the ground near locust spawners that do damage to the player. I thought it was some random chance before I noticed them so you are right in how players will react, but the mechanism is in the game so why not expand it to things like poisonous or prickly plants?

 

12 hours ago, Josiah Gibbonson said:

Maybe anchor most wolf spawns to naturally spawning "wolf den'" structures, with a few wanderers here and there.

I like the idea that there is a den spawning mechanism, at present the wolves seem to "just be there" rather than a reason for them to be there.

The next question would be do you want those things dynamic, or should possible wolf dens be generated at the same time the world is.

[PineReseen]

1 minute ago, Broccoli Clock said:

We already have metal spikes on the ground near locust spawners that do damage to the player. I thought it was some random chance before I noticed them so you are right in how players will react, but the mechanism is in the game so why not expand it to things like poisonous or prickly plants?

Huh, I've never gotten that far so i can't really say. But I guess if it's there already then why not?

[Broccoli Clock]

3 minutes ago, PineReseen said:

Huh, I've never gotten that far so i can't really say. But I guess if it's there already then why not?

Keep going deep enough so you encounter the locust spawner..

https://wiki.vintagestory.at/Locust

..the spikes on the ground look like damaged rebar, with 3 (crocked) prongs facing upwards. I don't have an image but once you've seen them once you'll recognise them again. They can be hard to spot when there is a lot of clutter on the ground.

[Josiah Gibbonson]

12 hours ago, LadyWYT said:

I think the insect "models" are really too small to be adding them as a proper hazard. Better to leave them as ambience/utility(bees and termites), and let snakes fill in the venom gap.

Counterpoint, butterflies. Although you kind of have to make those more detailed. An easier fix for this problem would be to scale up insect size in general slightly. Would make the bug net more fun- I wanna collect all sorts of bugs, not just butterflies  

[LadyWYT]

6 minutes ago, Josiah Gibbonson said:

Counterpoint, butterflies. Although you kind of have to make those more detailed. An easier fix for this problem would be to scale up insect size in general slightly. Would make the bug net more fun- I wanna collect all sorts of bugs, not just butterflies  

This is true, though I'd argue those models are still too small to be that noticeable. Nice for ambience, and bug collecting, but when it comes to figuring out the source of a negative effect it's going to be difficult to do if the source is that small. Damage happening for seemingly no reason will quickly frustrate a player.

Now I suppose a player could check the damage log to figure it out, but I still suspect it's one of those ideas that's neat in theory, but would be more annoying than fun in practice.

[Josiah Gibbonson]

8 minutes ago, LadyWYT said:

This is true, though I'd argue those models are still too small to be that noticeable. Nice for ambience, and bug collecting, but when it comes to figuring out the source of a negative effect it's going to be difficult to do if the source is that small

Depends the implementation. If they were about the size of butterflies (giant mosquitos?) And created that non-stop mosquito buzzing, and more than one were present, you'd probably be able to notice.

 

I doubt they'll ever add them though, everybody hates mosquitos LOL 

[Josiah Gibbonson]

3 hours ago, Broccoli Clock said:

like the idea that there is a den spawning mechanism, at present the wolves seem to "just be there" rather than a reason for them to be there.

The next question would be do you want those things dynamic, or should possible wolf dens be generated at the same time the world is.

 

Probably dynamic. I'd make it so "occupiable caves" spawn in the surface, with some spawning populated and some spawning empty. If a wandering wolf pack or bear stumbles upon an unnocupied spawned cave, they turn it into their den (I.E, their new spawning point) 

 

During winter, bears will actively search for empty unnocupied caves to hibernate in. 

 

Players can also clear out these spawned structures, turning them unnocupied again. Would make it so you couldnt just destroy a wolf den and never have to worry about any spawning around that area often again- you'd be good for a while if you left the corpses in the now-empty den, but soon enough a bear or wolf will decide it's time to move in themselves.

[Tom Cantine]

Bighorn sheep are native to North America, too. The European mouflon looks quite similar, though.

As for mosquitoes and rats and snakes and other such, I'd like to see health expanded a bit beyond mere hit points. The chief danger from mosquitoes isn't the blood loss or even the itching, but the fact that some diseases are transmitted by them. Likewise rats: sure, they'll eat your crops, but they can also host disease-carrying fleas. And snake venom is, well, kinda like a disease.

So maybe if there were ways to get infected with something that didn't necessarily cost you hit points, but added some kind of debuff in other ways. And there are LOTS of ways that can plug into systems that are already in place. 

* Some diseases or poisons can interfere with your perception, much like temporal storms distort vision and screw up aiming at blocks, and to a lesser degree drinking alcohol does. Various effects like this can also simulate just the annoyance/distraction of insect bites that aren't even carrying disease.

* Nausea. Rather than just increase food consumption, you can make it more conspicuously an illness, by interrupting attempts to eat food randomly, not letting the player reach full satiety because they're having a hard time keeping the food down. 

* Coordination: altering the way the controls respond, with varying degrees of predictability. 

* Add an involuntary sickness emote. And maybe a voluntary one that gives some diagnostic information to any player nearby, giving them a clue as to what kind of treatment you need. 

* Speaking of treatment, we already have poultices and bandages for health points, and I understand sleeping in a bed accelerates healing, but it'd also be relatively easy to add some medicines and dietary treatments as well. Like, to get over a particular condition, you might need to max out your vegetable nutrition bar but get protein below 50%, for example. 

And you can see where some of this can be readily expanded to support a barber/surgeon class, though that'd mostly be useful on multiplayer servers and not quite so important in solo worlds.

[Troa]

gonna say no to the spiders, the locusts are bad enough.