Do we really need a combat overhaul? What are your opinions on it?

[Josiah Gibbonson]

2 minutes ago, traugdor said:

then find a different way to fight? Use a shield maybe? Maybe don't fight! This isn't a horror combat game, afterall... it's a survival crafting game.

We're lucky there's any combat at all.

We really aren't...it's like "bare minimum" to at least add combat. No, in a game like stardew valley, we're lucky there's combat. In a game where you are expected to survive, it's expected to survive against wildlife. Which would mean combat. It would be incredibly boring if the only danger we had to deal with was hunger, freezing to death during winter, and fall damage, lol. 

 

And I don't know about you, but if a game is going to insist on having monsters and boss fights, something tells me it doesn't want to be the cozy farm sim you want it to be...

 

Of course, it doesn't want to be some dark souls knockoff either. Everything must be balanced! And as someone who enjoys the combat aspect of games, it's only natural I'd want to see it expanded upon. Same as people who like to fish- they would LOVE to get more in-depth fishing. 

[Teh Pizza Lady]

1 minute ago, Josiah Gibbonson said:

it doesn't want to be some dark souls knockoff either

Then why does your other thread list a bunch of dark souls-type mobs that would be horrifying to fight against? You're all over the place, dude.

Bear in mind that this game is supposed to cater to *ALL* audiences. So, baking things in like advanced combat mechanics, upgraded mobs, scary and impossible boss fights is going to turn away the people who want it to be a Farming sim. Having in-depth farming mechanics is going to turn away the people who just want to bang knuckles with a drifter and see how long they can survive against wave after wave of enemy. All of these things can be accomplished with mods. What you're suggesting would be better served as a mod.

That is why I say, "NO!" to another dodge button. We already have TWO dodge buttons. If someone wants to add a mob with a faster projectile attack, then they can add a dodge button in their mod. As it stands, there currently is absolutely ZERO use for a separate dodge button in the base game. None whatsoever. So like your ideas aren't bad, they just don't fit the game. Take all your recent threads, compile them together into a single post, and submit it as a mod idea. Then I would actually support you but currently? Just, no.

Also the monsters are intended to be avoided entirely. There is a RARE chance they'll drop valuable loot, but for the most part, that loot is mostly useless. The game can be played in its entirety without the rare drops from mobs. Temporal gears have other sources.

9 minutes ago, Josiah Gibbonson said:

as someone who enjoys the combat aspect of games, it's only natural I'd want to see it expanded upon

Try clicking this and seeing what options are available.

[LadyWYT]

One thing I will point out, that doesn't seem to have been touched upon yet...prior to 1.20, drifters were the only monster you'd encounter on the surface(outside of some crazy locust nest spawn location). A lot of people complained that the combat was boring because the drifters were too easy to fight(if you had the skill, you could tackle the heaviest temporal storms nude with nothing but flint spears), and wanted something more challenging.

Well...we got more challenge in 1.20, with the addition of bowtorn and shivers. Now there are three types of monster to encounter on the surface(and elsewhere), with very different styles of attack, meaning that now you'll need to be much more careful and properly prepare yourself for adventuring and combat. Of course, with the addition of the new monsters, the complaints have now swung the opposite direction, with some players complaining about how difficult the combat now is since you can't just charge in guns blazing and expect to live every time.

I'm not saying that 1.20 didn't have issues with the spawn ratios for the new monsters and stuff, because it did, however @Thorfinn hit the nail on the head earlier: the more complex you make a system, the more work you have to do to make sure that it's balanced, especially if it's a system that intertwines with others. And Vintage Story is very much a game that enjoys system overlaps.

3 minutes ago, traugdor said:

Also the monsters are intended to be avoided entirely. There is a RARE chance they'll drop valuable loot, but for the most part, that loot is mostly useless. The game can be played in its entirety without the rare drops from mobs. Temporal gears have other sources.

I wouldn't say they're intended to be avoided entirely. There's a few rare goodies you can get from the really dangerous ones, specifically. However, from a lore standpoint, monsters aren't something you want to mess with unless you HAVE to, and from a gameplay standpoint it's just more economical to avoid fights that you don't really need to engage in. Fighting wears down your gear, depletes your resources, and taking damage leaves you more vulnerable to accidental death.

[Josiah Gibbonson]

9 minutes ago, traugdor said:

Then why does your other thread list a bunch of dark souls-type mobs that would be horrifying to fight against? You're all over the place, dude.

I swear if I'd suggested the bowtorn before the devs added it you'd be like "oh NO, A dark souls monster! Nope, can't have that."

 

Pardon me for wanting to fight new types of enemies that were completely OPTIONAL. If you didn't want to fight them, just turn off monster spawning or stay away from rifts.

11 minutes ago, traugdor said:

Bear in mind that this game is supposed to cater to *ALL* audiences.

...We can agree to disagree on that little assumption. Having the option to add mods doesn't automatically make it a game catered to everyone. This game struck me as "minecraft for adults" more than anything. 

 

13 minutes ago, traugdor said:

What you're suggesting would be better served as a mod.

For people who don't like combat, sure. But if I'm expected to fight monsters in this game, I don't see anything wrong with wanted it a little more in depth like the rest of this game's mechanics seem to be. Crops get nutrient rotation, for heaven sakes! But I can't even have weapon resistances or weaknesses without getting "Go find a mod for that, son!"ed into oblivion? You've all managed to change my mind on needing a "dodge" button, and parrying isn't needed at all either. But I'm not caving all the way.

16 minutes ago, traugdor said:

Also the monsters are intended to be avoided entirely. There is a RARE chance they'll drop valuable loot, but for the most part, that loot is mostly useless. The game can be played in its entirety without the rare drops from mobs. Temporal gears have other sources.

Well yes, story is optional. But if you want to play through the story, then Combat is absolutely not avoidable. Which is why I don't really get why we can't expand upon it. The people who don't want it, would be able to, as you said, avoid it. The people actually looking for a fight, would get a more detailed experience. Nobody wants it overly complex, but i'd prefer it to not be overly simple either. But to each their own.

[Josiah Gibbonson]

15 minutes ago, LadyWYT said:

I'm not saying that 1.20 didn't have issues with the spawn ratios for the new monsters and stuff, because it did, however @Thorfinn hit the nail on the head earlier: the more complex you make a system, the more work you have to do to make sure that it's balanced, especially if it's a system that intertwines with others. And Vintage Story is very much a game that enjoys system overlaps.

I can just hope they take the time to make it a wee bit more complex and balance it. (In the future, someday) for those of us who actually enjoy combat. Just like they plan on adding actual fishing for people who aren't content with spear fishing or primitive survival's take on it. 

 

People don't seem to mind the new monsters, just the fact they make the game harder...which, given the game's trailer quote "if you only do what is easy, your life will be hard" seems to be part of the idea IMO

[Teh Pizza Lady]

6 minutes ago, Josiah Gibbonson said:

I swear if I'd suggested the bowtorn before the devs added it you'd be like "oh NO, A dark souls monster! Nope, can't have that."

bold of you to assume we weren't like that when the devs added them...

7 minutes ago, Josiah Gibbonson said:

This game struck me as "minecraft for adults" more than anything. 

It's not and we really don't like it being compared to that other block game.

7 minutes ago, Josiah Gibbonson said:

But if I'm expected to fight monsters in this game

8 minutes ago, Josiah Gibbonson said:

But if you want to play through the story, then Combat is absolutely not avoidable

There are only two fights that are required in the story, so you are correct on that one. Everything else in the game can 100% be completed without any form of combat mostly because mobs take fall damage. 

23 minutes ago, LadyWYT said:

I wouldn't say they're intended to be avoided entirely. There's a few rare goodies you can get from the really dangerous ones, specifically.

"intended" was the wrong word. The game is 100% not designed around needing to fight them. They are 100% optional aside from two very obvious examples once you start playing the story. The game can be completed without the rare goodies, which are largely useless for now. My opinions may change once those rare goodies get more uses outside of conveniences.

 

13 minutes ago, Josiah Gibbonson said:

I can't even have weapon resistances or weaknesses without getting "Go find a mod for that, son!"ed

That's because someone made a mod for that already and it's not in the list of things that the devs have shown interest in incorporating into the base game. ... which you would know if you read the older forum posts and checked out the mods page ...

[Josiah Gibbonson]

5 minutes ago, traugdor said:

bold of you to assume we weren't like that when the devs added them...

Was it like something like "there's only drifters! This sucks!"

Devs: *adds extra variety*

"Ew no we liked it better before, tf were you guys thinking?!" 

 

5 minutes ago, traugdor said:

That's because someone made a mod for that already and it's not in the list of things that the devs have shown interest in incorporating into the base game. ... which you would know if you read the older forum posts and checked out the mods page ...

They said things may change. Although it's not a big deal now, who knows how they'll feel around chapter six. That's six bosses that all have to feel fresh and different from eachother...unless we can't expect each chapter to have a boss :c

[LadyWYT]

36 minutes ago, Josiah Gibbonson said:

Pardon me for wanting to fight new types of enemies that were completely OPTIONAL. If you didn't want to fight them, just turn off monster spawning or stay away from rifts.

Just for the record, it's not possible to turn off monster spawns without disabling the lore content entirely. The best one can do, without installing mods or otherwise tampering with the game files, is to just set creatures to "passive" so they'll never fight back, and disable rifts/temporal storms if you don't want to deal with those.

 

[Teh Pizza Lady]

"May" is not always a guarantee. I mean there was a HUGE blowup about the boats in this game, like I'm talking people hurling insults and swearing and getting banned for it kind of huge. We thought that was the end of it, but the devs did tweak the boats after to cover for their primary weakness which was the fact that they were just a touch slower than they should have been.

That said, your suggestions could be good if implemented correctly, but given that combat isn't really a huge focus in the game, I can't see:

1. Combat upgrades being necessary without an appropriate reason for combat (like better mob drops or more interesting mobs that drop certain otherwise unobtainable items that are required to progress through the story)
2. More mobs being enjoyable without a better combat system in place.

But nevertheless, this game is not a combat simulator, but it does have a boss fight or two. It's also not a farming simulator, but it does have crop rotations... Idk, collect all your ideas and make a mod suggestion and maybe someone will be willing to work with you to make your dream come to life. I don't think the average VS player would want to see it baked into the base game, however, and you can't turn combat off entirely without disabling basically all of the lore content so at that point, you'd just have another block game, but with fancier graphics... we don't need or want that.

[LadyWYT]

7 minutes ago, traugdor said:

More mobs being enjoyable without a better combat system in place.

Nah, I could easily see this. More aggressive or otherwise dangerous wildlife(like hippos, which have been teased) would add more variety of interesting things to encounter in the world, as well as a hazard to avoid. Doesn't need to be groundbreaking to be interesting in this case, and you don't really have to explain what these creatures are capable of either. Most people have seen them, or something similar to them, and will have a rough idea of what to expect.

Monsters are a different case. I think there's still room on the roster for a few more, and new additions don't need to be particularly groundbreaking here either. However, in the case of monsters, the style of anything new needs to be consistent with what we already have, so that it looks like part of the same world and not something just plopped in for grins and giggles. Vintage Story monsters currently fit into two basic categories: mechanicals, and esoteric. The mechanicals are pretty straight-forward; they're robots, and the designs generally derive from human appearance or some kind of animal. The esoteric category is things like drifters, bowtorn, and shivers; the main features these all seem to share is a lack of a face, grey "flesh", a rusty metal "skeleton", and an overall shape that suggests they may have been humans at one point(the bowtorn is currently the biggest deviation from this last point).

As for monster behavior, while it doesn't need to be groundbreaking for each new addition to the roster, each new addition should at least be exhibiting some sort of behavior that lets it stand out from the ones we already have, otherwise you encounter the issue of "it's a drifter, but kicks and throws sticks instead". I'm also guessing the next "common" enemies added, if any are, will most likely be mechanical. Mechanicals fill the "trap" and "supporting unit" roles rather well, and there's a lot more wiggle room there when it comes to design possibilities. We could see another esoteric monster or two as well, but the drifter/bowtorn/shiver combination that we have currently covers most of the "aggressive enemy" roles.

[Thorfinn]

3 hours ago, Josiah Gibbonson said:

I swear if I'd suggested the bowtorn before the devs added it you'd be like "oh NO, A dark souls monster! Nope, can't have that."

Sorry if it sometimes feels that way. People were, in fact, complaining when drifters started throwing stones at you. Indeed, mostly inerrantly, but you could exploit that to make them fight each other. But I think most agreed that adding some kind of ranged supernatural, and one with very fast movement was a needed change. It just did not take much practice to get to where they were only a danger if you really messed up.

 

3 hours ago, Josiah Gibbonson said:

But if I'm expected to fight monsters in this game, I don't see anything wrong with wanted it a little more in depth

That will probably come with time. Like I said, SOMETHING has to trigger the intended status effects.

 

3 hours ago, Josiah Gibbonson said:

Crops get nutrient rotation, for heaven sakes!

Yes, but the same is true in Ostriv, which has absolutely zero combat. Not even dangerous animals. 

 

3 hours ago, Josiah Gibbonson said:

who knows how they'll feel around chapter six. That's six bosses that all have to feel fresh and different from eachother

Good Lord, I hope not. The game has so much to offer, I'd hate to see it get bogged down in the boss trope that's been done to death. 

 

Just keep in mind that while Combat Overhaul, which many think is  even better than sliced bread, is apparently mostly a multiplayer thing,  and probably has a user base of around 10k. (Extrapolated from other server play, where someone will show up, decide it's not for him, and go his merry way.)  That's kind of in the ballpark of the more builder mods, like Millwright or some of the immersive crafting mods or new roofing materials or roads or whatnot, but it's a piker compared to things like Primitive Survival, which adds little combat, and Expanded Foods, which adds none. 

Did you know Salty has a dodge mod, as well as several other things that have come up in this and other threads? Yet maybe a couple hundred downloads, tops? I suspect you are drastically overestimating the number of people who think of VS as a battle game.

[Josiah Gibbonson]

6 minutes ago, Thorfinn said:

Did you know Salty has a dodge mod, as well as several other things that have come up in this and other threads? Yet maybe a couple hundred downloads, tops? I suspect you are drastically overestimating the number of people who think of VS as a battle game.

I...really don't think of VS as a battle game. As is, there's no reason for a dodge roll because there aren't enough enemies or attack variety to justify it. The only point I'm trying to make, is if this game is so keen on making things realistic yet fun, why should combat be left out of the loop and be doomed to stay simplistic if it insists on having it?

I don't really want it harder per-say, just . . .you know. Give it some depth so the people like me who enjoy PvE (could not care less for PvP) won't get bored of it so fast. As is, just make the weapon with the strongest damage output and go bonkers. Maybe it's just because the AI isn't the best. I personally prefer fewer monsters to spawn, with the counterbalance being you actually have to watch and learn during combat with them to learn patterns. Instead of bullying the poor things with the five copper spears in your hotbar. 

 

There clearly was a time the community was like "this sucks. Give us more monsters!" So I suppose we just have to wait until the two new monsters grow old and they want new ones.

 

Combat currently isn't broke, so it doesn't need fixed. But it sure as hell isn't perfect, and I don't see why we shouldn't strive for something more in the future.  

[k1ngofpentacles]

Honestly my only gripe isn't so much with the combat itself as much as the design philosophy of having health sponges that also have exponentially scaling damage. With the drifters, it doesn't matter as much, but the shivers and bowtorn should not be extremely tanky and also big hitters at higher tiers. I feel like the damage/armor balancing is also way off the mark of where it could be ideally.

[Josiah Gibbonson]

1 minute ago, k1ngofpentacles said:

Honestly my only gripe isn't so much with the combat itself as much as the design philosophy of having health sponges that also have exponentially scaling damage. With the drifters, it doesn't matter as much, but the shivers and bowtorn should not be extremely tanky and also big hitters at higher tiers. I feel like the damage/armor balancing is also way off the mark of where it could be ideally.

On further thought, i think most of my problems with combat would dissolve if enemies just had different weapon weaknesses or resistances. And Slightly better Ai, and a few new attacks for the harder variants, instead of just making the harder variants damage sponges with high damage output.  

 

My problem might not even be combat itself but the way enemies are implemented >->

[Thorfinn]

55 minutes ago, Josiah Gibbonson said:

if this game is so keen on making things realistic yet fun, why should combat be left out of the loop and be doomed to stay simplistic if it insists on having it?

I'll try this again. The game goes above and beyond in trying to encourage the player NOT to battle the supernatural.  Most of the time you get exactly nothing for your effort, and most of the rest of the time, you get one piece of belly button lint. Depending on your personal goals, maybe it makes sense to venture forth in storms, but the only reason to engage rather than avoid in the depths is if your stability is getting low and you want to  get a little more done before you return to the surface. It's not that drops will make you wealthy beyond your dreams.

 

42 minutes ago, k1ngofpentacles said:

Honestly my only gripe isn't so much with the combat itself as much as the design philosophy of having health sponges that also have exponentially scaling damage. With the drifters, it doesn't matter as much, but the shivers

I was a little surprised to find out shivers are little more than faster drifters who can climb, but can't fit through doorways. They are otherwise identical in their statistics. They are no more damage sponges or heavy hitters than drifters are. And bowtorn are significantly weaker. Their ONLY advantage is concentration of fire if you face several at once.

 

@Josiah Gibbonson why not spend a little time seeking out mod makers who were working on improving drifters? There have been several attempts, and I often am 2 of the literally dozens of downloads. That's got to be a tad discouraging, to put that much effort into new AI code, only to have almost zero receptivity. At least you could encourage each other. And, who knows, maybe get enough people to download it to convince the devs it's actually something the community thinks is worth spending development resources on.

Edited April 2, 2025 by Thorfinn

[LadyWYT]

18 minutes ago, Josiah Gibbonson said:

I don't really want it harder per-say, just . . .you know. Give it some depth so the people like me who enjoy PvE (could not care less for PvP) won't get bored of it so fast.

The more depth you give it, the harder it gets to manage since there's more variables to track. The ideal state to shoot for is something that's easy for someone with 0 experience or knowledge to pick up and start playing, but difficult to master. Which, I think Vintage Story strikes that balance in its gameplay pretty well so far, including the combat. It's simple enough that a newbie can jump right into the game and be fine(though they'll struggle a bit in some areas), while more experienced players can crunch the numbers to figure out the most optimal equipment for given tasks or the timing needed to do stuff like dodge attacks, if they so desire.

25 minutes ago, Josiah Gibbonson said:

As is, just make the weapon with the strongest damage output and go bonkers.

Any combat in a nutshell, really. From a realistic standpoint, the best overall weapon choice is going to either be a pointy stick, or a club, in most cases. A long pointy stick keeps the enemy at a nicer distance, while being cheap to make and easy to use. As for a club...the armor might hold up under the bludgeoning, but the body underneath said armor probably won't be able to hold up from the shock of the beating.

To win a fight, all you really have to do is keep hitting the target until it can no longer move. The process of how you achieve can be easy, hard, or somewhere in-between, but it really is as simple as that.

33 minutes ago, Josiah Gibbonson said:

I personally prefer fewer monsters to spawn, with the counterbalance being you actually have to watch and learn during combat with them to learn patterns.

17 minutes ago, Josiah Gibbonson said:

On further thought, i think most of my problems with combat would dissolve if enemies just had different weapon weaknesses or resistances. And Slightly better Ai, and a few new attacks for the harder variants, instead of just making the harder variants damage sponges with high damage output.  

 

My problem might not even be combat itself but the way enemies are implemented >->

This is where I have to agree with what a couple of others here have already said--your best bet is looking through the mod database for mods that modify the combat and creature behavior, and see if that spices things up. That's one of the strong points of robust modding support; players get to season their gameplay to their liking, however mundane or outrageous it may be. There's even mods to make the shivers sound like clowns or dress the drifters in dapper suits!

A couple of mods you might start with are these:

Combat Overhaul: https://mods.vintagestory.at/combatoverhaul

Shiver Tweaks: https://mods.vintagestory.at/shivertweaks

There's probably some others out there that you'd enjoy, but I'm not entirely sure what you're looking for. If nothing else, you could take a crack at making your own mod, if you're feeling particularly ambitious.

[Broccoli Clock]

Bowtorns desperately need their accuracy nerfed. I don't mind them spawning, I don't mind fighting them, but several times today I've literally walked round a corner and been 3 tapped by bowtorns before I had the chance to do anything. Their accuracy doesn't seem to be affected by distance.

There is a bug with bowtorns just now, they can spawn inactive. Which is fine, they won't hurt you, but when you are facing 6 bowtorns knowing they will let loose with a very accurate projectile almost immediately, the last thing you need are decoys, video in spoiler..

Spoiler

(a bug has been reported)

 

 

Edited April 2, 2025 by Broccoli Clock

[k1ngofpentacles]

9 hours ago, Thorfinn said:

I was a little surprised to find out shivers are little more than faster drifters who can climb, but can't fit through doorways. They are otherwise identical in their statistics. They are no more damage sponges or heavy hitters than drifters are.

This actually isn't true. Shivers have more health than drifters. Enough so that even a surface shiver takes 3 hits with a steel falx as a blackguard vs 2 for a surface drifter. Considering the loot table for them isn't any better, their addition just makes drifters look silly. It just feels like bad balance to have the faster, more aggressive enemy also have more health while hitting for at least the same damage as the drifters.

[Josiah Gibbonson]

11 hours ago, Thorfinn said:

try this again. The game goes above and beyond in trying to encourage the player NOT to battle the supernatural

Yet you have no choice when you try to complete the story chapters! If we're not supposed to battle the supernatural, what's the freaking point of HAVING the supernatural? Just lock yourself in your home during temporal storms and run away from those annoyances (unless you're caving, in which yes, the game once again intends for you to fight them) and never worry about them again. 

 

Also, early game flax fibers are pretty sweet, actually. The occassional rusty gear and temporal gear are nice drops too. The harder rank the enemy, the better the loot. But whenever I see a drifter, or a bowtorn, or a shiver, I'm not like "oh the game doesnt want me to kill those, I better leave them alone" I'm like "I better kill those, because if I don't they're going to irritate me by camping around my house." 

There's really no reason not to clear them out since combat is so mindless. Toss several spears and the threat is eliminated.

 

If you want an example of an enemy you aren't at all supposed to fight, look at minecraft's Warden.

11 hours ago, Thorfinn said:

a little surprised to find out shivers are little more than faster drifters who can climb, but can't fit through doorways. They are otherwise identical in their statistics. They are no more damage sponges or heavy hitters than drifters are. And bowtorn are significantly weaker. Their ONLY advantage is concentration of fire if you face several at once.

They only really "damage sponge" when you find higher tiers of them. Its not that they're any harder to fight, it's just that they literally take longer to kill and do more damage. Their AI isn't any better...

12 hours ago, Thorfinn said:

why not spend a little time seeking out mod makers who were working on improving drifters? There have been several attempts, and I often am 2 of the literally dozens of downloads. That's got to be a tad discouraging, to put that much effort into new AI code, only to have almost zero receptivity. At least you could encourage each other. And, who knows, maybe get enough people to download it to convince the devs it's actually something the community thinks is worth spending development resources on.

If I get something that "improves" drifters via a mod, I'll depress myself it's not in the base game. I despise using mods, because when you add one, you're prone to add like twelve more, and then one of them doesn't work properly, and then your FPS tanks, and then you're left in a worse mood than you started. I do NOT want to fall down that rabbit hole again. 

[Josiah Gibbonson]

12 hours ago, LadyWYT said:

The more depth you give it, the harder it gets to manage since there's more variables to track. The ideal state to shoot for is something that's easy for someone with 0 experience or knowledge to pick up and start playing, but difficult to master. Which, I think Vintage Story strikes that balance in its gameplay pretty well so far, including the combat. It's simple enough that a newbie can jump right into the game and be fine(though they'll struggle a bit in some areas), while more experienced players can crunch the numbers to figure out the most optimal equipment for given tasks or the timing needed to do stuff like dodge attacks, if they so desire.

Well, for one example, Valhiem's combat is pretty in-depth in comparison to this game (block, dodge roll, parry) not that those mechanics are really needed for this game, but the point is that combat can get a wee bit more complex without turning new players away.  But personally I think if you were first jumping into the Genre, this should NOT be the game to start. Just me though.

 

12 hours ago, LadyWYT said:

To win a fight, all you really have to do is keep hitting the target until it can no longer move. The process of how you achieve can be easy, hard, or somewhere in-between, but it really is as simple as that.

Yessss!

 

12 hours ago, LadyWYT said:

This is where I have to agree with what a couple of others here have already said--your best bet is looking through the mod database for mods that modify the combat and creature behavior, and see if that spices things up. That's one of the strong points of robust modding support; players get to season their gameplay to their liking, however mundane or outrageous it may be. There's even mods to make the shivers sound like clowns or dress the drifters in dapper suits!

A couple of mods you might start with are these:

Sorry, but won't touch combat mods. First you download one combat overhaul mod. But wait! It only overhauls COMBAT, it doesn't justify it's existance by making drifters more intelligent and giving them new attacks. So you download a drifter mod to do just that. But WAIT, they aren't compatible with eachother because it turns out the first combat mod you installed was intended for PvP! Nuh-uh. Thanks, but no thanks, I'll just wait and see what the devs cook up eventually. (Not trying to be rude, just don't want to get into all that mess lol)

 

 

[Thorfinn]

2 hours ago, k1ngofpentacles said:

Shivers have more health than drifters.

You are correct. When I first nerfed them a bit in early releases to reduce rage-quits, they were. Now surface shivers have 2 better health than their counterparts. Never noticed. They are both 3 spears. Nightmares are one extra spear, which I guess I've never noticed because storms keep me a little busy.

[Thorfinn]

38 minutes ago, Josiah Gibbonson said:

If I get something that "improves" drifters via a mod, I'll depress myself it's not in the base game. I despise using mods, because when you add one, you're prone to add like twelve more, and then one of them doesn't work properly, and then your FPS tanks, and then you're left in a worse mood than you started. I do NOT want to fall down that rabbit hole again. 

So, basically, everyone must play the game tuned as I prefer because I got burned before in a different game?

[Josiah Gibbonson]

30 minutes ago, Thorfinn said:

So, basically, everyone must play the game tuned as I prefer because I got burned before in a different game?

Wow! I never thought of it that way. Let's never change mechanics again because they're perfect as is. After all, we don't want to cater to anybody, what a nightmare that would be! 

 

On further thought, this appears to be the same arguement with adding a thirst mechanic. 

 

We're not going to see eye-to-eye clearly. You think combat is fine, I think it could use improving. 

Edited April 2, 2025 by Josiah Gibbonson

[Cattastrafy]

14 hours ago, Thorfinn said:

I'll try this again. The game goes above and beyond in trying to encourage the player NOT to battle the supernatural.

It's not that drops will make you wealthy beyond your dreams.

 

Feel like this is fairly untrue.

Caving - ultimately an exercise in combat - yields:

the "best bed" in the game

Easy access to lore scrolls

Translocators - debately one of the most powerful tools for accessing new distant lands, giving possible access to possibly elusive ores and rocks in your home territory like bauxite, ilmenite, lime related rocks, better areas for certain livestock like goats/sheep, etc. also requires the drops from monsters to even use (not so useless, eh?)

Drops for terminus teleporter (prob the only real useful Jonas item imo)

Easy to see ores and minerals sometimes, saving you a trip to mine potentially.

Plenty of gears to spend over time found as loot, directly related to your level of "wealth". Certainly easier and quicker to obtain with trade routes but...cherry on top.

 

Then there's temporal storms, I don't think the devs intend on you hiding for 15 minutes doing nothing waiting it out. That's a waste of time. Also doubt they intend on you making mob farms, which, is still the opposite of "avoiding combat" either way. You still gotta murder em when they fall into that hole!

Giving increasingly better tools to fight and survive mobs seems....well, it seems like a good excuse to test your mettle against mobs right? The tools giving you the ability to combat them in general vs tools to run away better?

The temporal gears being used to sustain yourself longer is caves is funny, contrary to the fact that the nightmare bowtorns that eventually spawn and are easy to kill compared to other nightmare monsters are insanely more effective at restoring stability than a gear. And you require combat to unlock this benefit.

 

All this said, I'd like more variety in combat but can understand and be perfectly happy with it staying roughly as it is in the distant future. More weapon types is really all I'd ask for personally. 

[Thorfinn]

So much depends on your playstyle. Killing drifters is nowhere near as effective in gaining fibers as just going out exploring for flax. Temporal gear? Don't need it if you don't get killed. Bored with combat? Try permadeath.

Similarly, caving is not necessarily an exercise in combat. It can be, if you view killing as the only way to attain your goals. But there's absolutely no reason you have to do it that way. You can easily go in, spam torches until you start getting too many enemies to ignore, leave and let them despawn, return and fence off your gains. But most of the loot? Meh. I don't sleep anyway, and even if I did, the hay bed would be best because it doesn't waste as much daylight. Terminus transporter is worthless in permadeath. Translocators are next to useless without a map, since if you somehow can't find it when you want to return, there is no way of knowing where you are. If' you've already explored the area and know the landmarks, sure, but then all that TL does for you is speed travel. Barring sheer cliffs in the way, all they do is save you a day or two per year. Restoring stability? You can also do that by simply returning to the surface and processing the stuff you just got.

But, again, if you see combat as the means to the end, you rank combat highly. If you enjoy crafting, building, or, the really novel part of the game, chiseling, combat is at best secondary.