v1.21.0-rc.1 - Story Chapter 2 Redux

[Facethief]

4 hours ago, Scorpictorem said:

I'm not sure I understood your question correctly.

There really wasn’t one. The person who started this thread of discussion, @Edgeville Pker, was expressing their excitement about the upcoming Hytale-like gamemode, not expressing discontent with a perceived lack of story in VS.

[ijkdenem]

i can't wait.

[CastIronFabric]

On 7/24/2025 at 8:38 AM, Scorpictorem said:

I'm not sure I understood your question correctly. I assume that you (like many players) do not know that in addition to a simple sandbox, the game already has special places that complement the history of the world. (I will also note that the game has books and notes of those who lived during the apocalypse. It can be found in ruins or filtered from the soil with bones. And the game has also tapestries that can be collected entirely, hung on the wall and, looking at them, learn a piece of history) I will hide the rest under the spoiler, so that those who have already gone to forge a pickaxe from tin bronze do not spoil their pleasure from independent exploration.

  Reveal hidden contents

The game has two bosses, a place where people are more talkative (than merchants), and they give several quests. The plot is not finished yet. At the moment, it leads to a person who knows more than us about the causes of the apocalypse. He will tell a lot (even about who the players are) and give a hint about the next update of the game.

 

I hate to beat a dead horse that for some reason gets people excited but I gotta ask.

What exactly do we mean by 'RPG'. It appears in this thread we assumed it means more about the story. I was told in another thread that I was incorrect in suggesting RPG would likely means heavy story

In fact even AI struggles to be clear on what attributes make up an 'RPG'.

Edited July 25, 2025 by CastIronFabric

[FlareUKCS]

VS is not an RPG, its a eldritch horror survival game with a creative slant, the newly announced adventure mode will be more RPG like.

VS can be a RPG with certain mods like the XSkills mod, but natively it is not. RPG typically denotes a game where on gains skills/levels up, becomes a hero/villain and 'wins' the game, VS has an optional story one can pursue if one wants or not, the game doesn't care its more a reason things are like they are... the world, and the players experiences it as they want.

That's my lowly opinion at least

[CastIronFabric]

38 minutes ago, FlareUKCS said:

VS is not an RPG, its a eldritch horror survival game with a creative slant, the newly announced adventure mode will be more RPG like.

VS can be a RPG with certain mods like the XSkills mod, but natively it is not. RPG typically denotes a game where on gains skills/levels up, becomes a hero/villain and 'wins' the game, VS has an optional story one can pursue if one wants or not, the game doesn't care its more a reason things are like they are... the world, and the players experiences it as they want.

That's my lowly opinion at least

like I said, AI can not even be coherent on what the attributes of an RPG is and is not.

I asked AI 

'is a skill system required for a game to be an RPG' answer: no

'is a story required for a game to be an RPG' answer: no

'is lore required to for a game to be an RPG' answer: no

'what is are the attributes of an RPG' answer: character progression.

Now I know AI often gets things wrong but these inconclusive answers does seem inline with my historical experience as well. If we say 'character progression' then yes I agree that all one would have to do is slap on XSkill and then BAM its now magically a RPG

However my core point is, some people tell me (not just here but over my lifetime) RPG requires lore, some say required story, some say does not require any of that. In this side conversation people seem to imply that an RPG should have a story, you say its skill progression. I am saying its clear to me nobody (even AI) really has a solid definition that they can realistically tell other people 'it is..xyz'

anyway, rant over.

[FlareUKCS]

You heard of the 'heroes journey', a template for story writers of all types... it outlays a start, a struggle, a path of getting strong and then a ending, that to me is a RPG. VS is more a carve a life here type, you start and struggle but you are not usually aiming to get strong to get to the end, you are carving out a space to live in... you aint the hero you are a seraph that woke up and wanted to live, then thrive.

RPG should be define by the R... you play a Role, a position carved out for the player to fill, then struggle a bit then get stronger, then win. It should stand to reason you need some lore centric reason to be the role (I dont define hero or villain as some have bad people winning). The confusing part could be because it doesn't have to be a traditional story, it could be starting with the player, no background reason just a conflux that occurs now and the player/s need to act, a current story with a current issue and not one started years ago.

[CastIronFabric]

9 minutes ago, FlareUKCS said:

You heard of the 'heroes journey', a template for story writers of all types... it outlays a start, a struggle, a path of getting strong and then a ending, that to me is a RPG. VS is more a carve a life here type, you start and struggle but you are not usually aiming to get strong to get to the end, you are carving out a space to live in... you aint the hero you are a seraph that woke up and wanted to live, then thrive.

RPG should be define by the R... you play a Role, a position carved out for the player to fill, then struggle a bit then get stronger, then win. It should stand to reason you need some lore centric reason to be the role (I dont define hero or villain as some have bad people winning). The confusing part could be because it doesn't have to be a traditional story, it could be starting with the player, no background reason just a conflux that occurs now and the player/s need to act, a current story with a current issue and not one started years ago.

yeah I was a student of Joseph Campbell by proxy. I read a few of his books and listened to his entire lecture series.

What I am here to tell you is this:

People are asserting what RPG is..as if they have the definition and its a conclusive definition that everyone should be agreeing to. They very well might have the definition hidden somewhere however there is NOT a consensus on what the word means, AI can not be clear on the question and to assume everyone is on the same page to the definition and what attributes are involved is not being realistic.

So in short when the developers say 'its going to have RPG elements' well what is or is not RPG elements is in fact..subjective.

even though it should not be...it is

[FlareUKCS]

I suppose in the end what defines a genre is not that important as what we get from the experience personally.

I mean Diablo is considered a ActionRPG, but I dont think its a RPG myself, I think Baldurs Gate ... Diablo was a fun loot collection that I enjoyed, the lore was interesting but I liked the loot collecting, definitely not what I consider any RPG...action or not.

So I agree with you it is subjective, or even personal.

[CastIronFabric]

7 minutes ago, FlareUKCS said:

I suppose in the end what defines a genre is not that important as what we get from the experience personally.

I mean Diablo is considered a ActionRPG, but I dont think its a RPG myself, I think Baldurs Gate ... Diablo was a fun loot collection that I enjoyed, the lore was interesting but I liked the loot collecting, definitely not what I consider any RPG...action or not.

So I agree with you it is subjective, or even personal.

it actually is important when one is building expectations on what a game will be or should be when its said to be an RPG.

If someone says 'this is a good RPG game' and people respond by talking about the story, we do not know if that person considers a story to be an important attribute of a RPG.

I am one of those people, I played D&D in the 80s and 'story' was never my interest. To me a Narrative told by a DM is not what an RPG is. Its about skill progression, tactics, numbers and the story that happens when the players interact with the world thus changing the pre-determined route. That is exactly why I felt most of the D&D computer game completely missed the point.

So I guess my point is, guys..do not assume the game is going to be XYZ because they said its RPG because their personal view on what an RPG is might not be in line with yours. 

 

To be clear for those who read my posts on the other thread. I personally believe that these developers will make the other project 'heavy on story' but the reason is not exclusively because they used the term RPG. Other people do not agree with my prediction but regardless, that is a side note

Edited July 25, 2025 by CastIronFabric

[Maelstrom]

Rule #1 - We don't talk about adventure mode.  err fight club.
Rule #2 - We don't talk about adventure mode. err... fight club.

 

[Echo Weaver]

1 hour ago, CastIronFabric said:

If someone says 'this is a good RPG game' and people respond by talking about the story, we do not know if that person considers a story to be an important attribute of a RPG.

I am one of those people, I played D&D in the 80s and 'story' was never my interest. To me a Narrative told by a DM is not what an RPG is. Its about skill progression, tactics, numbers and the story that happens when the players interact with the world thus changing the pre-determined route. That is exactly why I felt most of the D&D computer game completely missed the point.

I am exactly the opposite. I've been an avid table-top RPG player since the early 90s, and it was ALWAYS about the narrative to me. I preferred a low-combat mix of choices that included a lot of talking your way out of trouble and recruiting the adversary against a common threat or whatever. Add in vivid NPCs who behave unexpected ways. And mysteries -- investigative games are the hardest to GM, I think, because the players want to sit around all day considering possibilities.The more opportunities to take the story in different directions, the better.

As far as RPG *computer games* go, at least what i consider the "classic" ones like Diablo, I find combat tactics and character builds to be much more fun than they are on tabletop because the game takes over the math. Diablo II had a fabulously complex trait tree that could create totally different feels for characters of the same class. So there was a myriad of choices, but it was in character advancement rather than story. I really enjoy calculation and roll-table crunchy gaming when I don't have to spend so long calculating and looking things up myself. OTOH, mechanics are a lot more fun, but complex choices with impact on the character path are much more difficult to do in a satisfying way in software. A lot of stories are more frameworks for interesting tactics than narratives in the own right. And that's fine because the tactics are (IMHO) much more fun.

And at this stage of my life, I enjoy playing a dwarf swinging a battle-axe to defeat the armies of the evil sorceress to be a lot more fun on table-top than I did 30 years ago.

I think both of these styles are equally "RPG." And, really, they have a lot of the same elements -- what changes in the focus of which element gets the most attention.

It'd be interesting to make a list of elements that feel important RPGs as a genre. When I say RPG, I think:

 - Story. It can be a simple shell scenario or an elaborate branching narrative.

 - Character advancement that is intrinsic to the character rather than just gear related (e.g. VS and That Other Block Game have no innate character progression; progression is all about getting resources and crafting stuff). It could be skill advancement. It could be stat advancement. It could be increasing hit points.

 - Some kind of quests or tasks that provide sub-goals to drive the action and provide useful rewards. These might or might not advance a central objective.

That said, I find it much more interesting to think about ways various features of RPGs might be implemented in a procedurally-generated sandbox game while not losing the feel of a procedurally-generated sandbox game. That means a minimum of fixed locations and NPCs.

 

ETA: Actually, I might agree with @CastIronFabric on the definition of an RPG than I think I did on first reading. I think the definition we might not agree on is "story"

Edited July 25, 2025 by Echo Weaver

[Echo Weaver]

1 hour ago, CastIronFabric said:

it actually is important when one is building expectations on what a game will be or should be when its said to be an RPG.

OK, here is probably where I disagree most.

All of us have different ideas of what is most important to an RPG. We are NOT the developers. We're just folks throwing ideas around.

The devs, meanwhile, can't set expectations because I'm pretty sure they don't know what they're building yet.

Therefore, there is no building of expectations in the conversation. It's just brainstorming and an expression of preferences.

[Thorfinn]

There's a good reason there's lots of confusion about RPG. Filter for RPG on either GOG or Steam, and you will find no common factors other than "Playing Game"

Torchlight and II had what I consider to be a good ARPG, but the "story" was just about defeating a number of bosses. Din's Curse and whatever the ones that followed, same. Almost Diablo with some different graphics and a more robust skill system. Oh, and you could improve equipment rather than just replacing it. ETA: Oh, and you can include the various iterations of Fate here.

IMO, "Role" means more than you have to be the one to stab yourself in the forehead with a crystal in a cutscene.

Edited July 25, 2025 by Thorfinn

[CastIronFabric]

25 minutes ago, Echo Weaver said:

I am exactly the opposite. I've been an avid table-top RPG player since the early 90s, and it was ALWAYS about the narrative to me...

So that is my point.

It means different things to different people. People have told me that RPG is NOT about the story. People have also told me that it IS about the story.

The question is, what does RPG mean to the person who is using the term. If I apply my definition to the phrase RPG the person might be thinking something completely different.

I do not want to be rude but guys..what I am saying is not overly complicated.

There is NOT a universally agree on definition of what an RPG attribute or is not.

Everyone, please stop trying to define the phrase as if Websters has given you a contract to define the word for everyone, my point is the phrase is subjective.

 

Edited July 25, 2025 by CastIronFabric

[Echo Weaver]

Just now, CastIronFabric said:

So that is my point.

It means different things to different people. People have told me that RPG is NOT about the story. People have also told me that it IS about the story.

The question is, what does RPG mean to the person who is using the term. If I apply my definition to the phrase RPG the person might be thinking something completely different.

I do not want to be rude but guys..what I am saying is not overly complicated.

There is NOT a universally agree on definition of what an RPG attribute or is not.

Right, and almost everyone in the thread agrees with you.

The point to speculation is that everyone's definition is equally valid.

[CastIronFabric]

2 minutes ago, Echo Weaver said:

Right, and almost everyone in the thread agrees with you.

The point to speculation is that everyone's definition is equally valid.

I am not seeing that agreement, what I am seeing is people trying to define what the word means..full stop. Not what it means to them personally but the definitive definition that everyone should understand is the definition.

but fair enough I will assume you are right when you say people are agreeing with me that its subjective.

Edited July 25, 2025 by CastIronFabric

[Facethief]

I was going to add an actual opinion here, but this discussion’s a bit saturated, so I’ll just say… I guess you could say that the term RPG plays a lot of roles… in gaming… haha.

[QueerCoded]

14 hours ago, CastIronFabric said:

like I said, AI can not even be coherent on what the attributes of an RPG is and is not

That doesn't mean anything. "AI" isn't consistent and it doesn't know anything. Don't rely on it.

[Raiback]

I can't wait to play the stable version!

[CastIronFabric]

7 hours ago, QueerCoded said:

That doesn't mean anything. "AI" isn't consistent and it doesn't know anything. Don't rely on it.

so where should I look for the definitive definition that the vast majority of people agree on? @Echo Weaver says everyone agrees with me that the definition is subjective, is that person correct?

[Pervy]

12 hours ago, QueerCoded said:

That doesn't mean anything. "AI" isn't consistent and it doesn't know anything. Don't rely on it.

Neither is the term RPG consistent. Hence the problem at hand.
Edit: I would also have asked the AI, so i didt need to dig. But i already know, that no one knows.

Edited July 26, 2025 by Pervy

[Maelstrom]

15 hours ago, QueerCoded said:

That doesn't mean anything. "AI" isn't consistent and it doesn't know anything. Don't rely on it.

But it does do a good job at aggregating information.  I asked two different AI engines "What are the qualities of an RPG" and got almost identical answers.   One provided Character progression, storytelling and player agency while the other had those plus character creation (which I would lump into progression, personally).

As I've thought on it I think those three things are the essence of an RPG.  The biggest problem of computer RPGs is the limit to player agency which can only extend to what the designer/developer decides the player can do.  Wanna pull a Han Solo in the Death Star smooth talking your way out, but the game designer says, "Nope, you gotta fight it out" you limited to fighting it out. 

I think VS Adventure Mode may have the capacity to create a milestone in expanding player agency in computer RPG.

[Facethief]

@Maelstrom I hope when you say “computer RPG” you mean an RPG on a computer and not a CRPG, because those are… difficult. I do hope that adventure mode will be as free-form as possible. If I can play the game without ever finishing the story and have fun, even on my fifth+ play through, it’s a great game.

[Maelstrom]

Computer programmed RPG as opposed to TTRPG.  TTRPG affords essentially infinite player agency whereas computerized RPG is limited; typically extremely limited.

Don't confuse limited player agency as my saying that the game isn't fun.   One of my favoritest games in all my life is Wizardry: Proving Grounds of the Mad Overlord which had a miniscule amount of storytelling, loads of progression (which is the easiest thing to program) and practically zero player agency (which is the most difficult, nigh impossible thing to program, but this will change when AI is incorporated into computer games). Not surprising as it was one of the first computerized RPGs.  I still loved, Loved LOVED the game though.  

[Facethief]

9 hours ago, Maelstrom said:

Computer programmed RPG as opposed to TTRPG.  TTRPG affords essentially infinite player agency whereas computerized RPG is limited; typically extremely limited.

Yeah, that’s what I thought you meant.

As for your second point, a game can be super fun with limited agency; I loved the Halo games in MCC, (except 4, but that’s Halo 4) but I’ll probably never play them again, at least not marathon style- there’s little difference between campaign playthroughs. On the other hand, games like Skyrim where you can never touch the main quests and have fun for ages are so easy to keep coming back to (at least if you didn’t spoil all of the quests for yourself; too much Youtube can RUIN games for me). Of course, games like The Elder Scrolls and Fallout aren’t made overnight: it takes ages to populate a world like that. That’s why I think Adventuremod has a lot of potential, and why I LOVE Rimworld; if you can generate the story, the world, the characters, there’s no limit to the replay value except for the templates you put in the game.

Man, why can’t I write like this when I need to…