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A Discussion about the decision to pickup Hytale and include it into Vintage Story as a Mode instead of making a separate game, & on if picking up Hytale is a good idea. RESPECTFUL RESPONSES ONLY.

cosmobeau

By cosmobeau
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Facethief Steel Worker

Facethief

Posted
Posted
1 minute ago, CastIronFabric said:

I agree with the OP.

I do not think its a major deal from a point of mechanism but from a point of optics it causes confusion which can quickly escalate out of control.

 

How???

Facethief Steel Worker

Facethief

Posted
Posted (edited)
1 minute ago, CastIronFabric said:

It causes confusion.

I would rather not get into a conversation regarding how.

 

Then why’d you reply???

edit: if the dev who posted here is to be believed, the new gamemode will be downloaded from the mod page and only the mod page, so it’d be simple to find and hard to confuse with VS and the engine.

Edited by Facethief
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Thorfinn Historian

Thorfinn

Posted
Posted
On 8/17/2025 at 12:40 AM, Katherine K said:

But I suppose, VS has a somewhat unconventional engine/gameplay split, so I can see how having a framework be part of the engine would make it a lot more convenient to work with.

Hadn't really thought too much about it before you said it, but that's what's so different about VS, isn't it? Engine and framework co-mingled. Means most things that people care to change about the game require not much more than basic literacy in English. Still not thrilled with .dll expanding those capabilities, as that's a security hole waiting to be exploited. Someday, when the game gets big enough to have a malicious subset of the player base, they will have to do something about it. Maybe that's what the announcement a week or two ago that the team was going to start paying more attention to the mods was all about.

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LadyWYT Historian

LadyWYT

Posted
Posted
22 hours ago, Facethief said:

edit: if the dev who posted here is to be believed, the new gamemode will be downloaded from the mod page and only the mod page, so it’d be simple to find and hard to confuse with VS and the engine.

I'd wager that would also come with a link to the modpage on the VS title screen itself. That way everyone is not only aware of the existence, but has an easy way to jump straight to the appropriate page without needing to sort through the database.

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CastIronFabric Steel Worker

CastIronFabric

Posted
Posted
3 hours ago, LadyWYT said:

I'd wager that would also come with a link to the modpage on the VS title screen itself. That way everyone is not only aware of the existence, but has an easy way to jump straight to the appropriate page without needing to sort through the database.

So do I drop the game into my mod folder with all my other mods?

Can I play the mod in my existing world?

Can I use other mods in this modded game mod?

Is it a standalone?

Is it being created and supported by Angeo?

Since its in the mod page will they support all the other mods I am using from the same front page if I use it in this mod?

Questions I am not asking, but questions I would assume would be asked.

I just think it would be cleaner to create a separate game. If they like ones key for VS would work in the other game. simple.

 

anyway, that is as far as I am going to go into the statement of 'I think this will cause confusion that will escalate quickly' because I think it already has.

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Krougal Steel Worker

Krougal

Posted
Posted (edited)

We can speculate all we want, but we really just need to wait and see.

I don't think Anego has anything set in stone right now, nor do they need to until it happens.

Like I always tell my wife, "I'll burn that bridge when I get there!"

 

Edited by Krougal
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Teo9631 Berry Picker

Teo9631

Posted
Posted (edited)
On 8/17/2025 at 12:33 AM, Thorfinn said:

Go hack and look. Was that promised, or was that only your expectation?

Crap, read the click-throughs on the software you use. Even top-shelf, full-release software isn't warranted to do anything, even install.

[EDIT]

True to form, I didn't express the last post very well. The discounted present value and ROI is the absolute most anyone should expect in a value-for-value exchange. Any value-for-value exchange.

[EDIT2]

In case that was not clear, by top-shelf, I mean things like Windows, Linux or MacOS. They do not promise anything.

Not true, like at all.

I am not a lawyer by any means and I am far from qualified to answer this and I honestly don't think you are one either, so lets leave it at that.

But I write software for living and I live in the EU and I happen to know that EU has a very specific law, specifically the Digital Content Directive (EU) 2019/770, to ensure that consumers have rights when digital content, such as software, is defective the consumer is entitled to remedies, which can include repair, replacement, a price reduction, or a full refund.

The EULA does claim "at your own risk" and "as is." but under EU law, such a broad disclaimer is unlikely to be fully enforceable. While you should expect an early access game to have issues, this clause cannot override my statutory rights under the Digital Content Directive if the game is fundamentally broken, unplayable, or significantly different from how it was advertised.

Edited by Teo9631
Katherine K Copper Caster

Katherine K

Posted
Posted
16 hours ago, Thorfinn said:

Still not thrilled with .dll expanding those capabilities

Agreed, it's a mixed bag. On one hand, it lets you run raw machine code, so you have all the wonderful capabilities. On another, it lets you run raw machine code, so you have all the less wonderful vulnerabilities.

Then again, so much of modern development ecosystem is, "I needed this feature, so I imported a package. No, I don't know who made it." Maybe it's a lost battle, and we'll just have to rely on mod aggregation sites being properly reviewed and moderated.

I liked how in Space Engineers the terminals did run custom C# if you had the right settings turned on on the server, but it was passed around as text and compiled on target machine with stuff like IO and unsafe execution disabled. And it's not that you can't hide a back door in that, but you have to write something that will instantly look suspicious to the right person and would at least be more likely to get analyzed and flagged. As much as I'd love to always have capability to run native code for performance on particularly heavy tasks, like what's discussed in the Advanced Hydrodynamics thread, having the mods be limited to C# that's distributed as source would be safer. Not safe. But safer.

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Thorfinn Historian

Thorfinn

Posted
Posted
6 hours ago, Katherine K said:

I liked how in Space Engineers the terminals did run custom C# if you had the right settings turned on on the server, but it was passed around as text and compiled on target machine with stuff like IO and unsafe execution disabled.

That's how another voxel game that I was very involved in the development of dealt with it, too, though Lua instead of C#, so it wasn't even compiled at runtime. It ran into issues with execution speed, like you would expect of any interpreter-based language. I doubt it would be able to handle the workload of VS.

Krougal Steel Worker

Krougal

Posted
Posted
9 hours ago, Katherine K said:

Agreed, it's a mixed bag. On one hand, it lets you run raw machine code, so you have all the wonderful capabilities. On another, it lets you run raw machine code, so you have all the less wonderful vulnerabilities.

Then again, so much of modern development ecosystem is, "I needed this feature, so I imported a package. No, I don't know who made it." Maybe it's a lost battle, and we'll just have to rely on mod aggregation sites being properly reviewed and moderated.

I liked how in Space Engineers the terminals did run custom C# if you had the right settings turned on on the server, but it was passed around as text and compiled on target machine with stuff like IO and unsafe execution disabled. And it's not that you can't hide a back door in that, but you have to write something that will instantly look suspicious to the right person and would at least be more likely to get analyzed and flagged. As much as I'd love to always have capability to run native code for performance on particularly heavy tasks, like what's discussed in the Advanced Hydrodynamics thread, having the mods be limited to C# that's distributed as source would be safer. Not safe. But safer.

Yeah, and then there is Easy Anti Cheat, which allows unrestricted access to your system, reports back to Chicom Epic, and really does nothing to prevent cheaters, as any Rust player can attest to. Yet more and more games are pushing it, and very few people raise any objections about it.

Ahhh Space Engineers...that is one of the things I love about it, all the cool things you can do with programs. Just wish it had a more robust and stable engine. I hope SE2 turns out better and not like most sequels.

Facethief Steel Worker

Facethief

Posted
Posted
21 hours ago, CastIronFabric said:

So do I drop the game into my mod folder with all my other mods?

Can I play the mod in my existing world?

Can I use other mods in this modded game mod?

Is it a standalone?

Is it being created and supported by Angeo?

Since its in the mod page will they support all the other mods I am using from the same front page if I use it in this mod?

Respectively:

Probably, doubtful, mods are wierd, until mods get made (unless you mean a standalone game, in which case probably not), yes (I don’t know what you expected), didn’t you already ask that?

@Tyron, I hope you’re taking notes for an FAQ page.

CastIronFabric Steel Worker

CastIronFabric

Posted
Posted (edited)
17 minutes ago, Facethief said:

Respectively:

Probably, doubtful, mods are wierd, until mods get made (unless you mean a standalone game, in which case probably not), yes (I don’t know what you expected), didn’t you already ask that?

@Tyron, I hope you’re taking notes for an FAQ page.

add

 

'all the other game 'modes' are settings I can adjust in any game world' why is this 'mode' different?

OR...just hear me out...OR...make it a stand alone game 

 

EDIT: Here is another one 'How come the setting 'Temporal Storm' is not in the settings in this one mode but it exists in all other modes'?

Edited by CastIronFabric
Thorfinn Historian

Thorfinn

Posted
Posted
30 minutes ago, CastIronFabric said:

OR...just hear me out...OR...make it a stand alone game 

 

Or... just hear me out, place a screen one level earlier in the Anego engine where you select the Game, then select the Mode, for those games that have modes? Granted, that means the mods directory in the base game install directory should no longer be used for user-level mods, but that's what the plaintext file in that directory already says. If that directory housed ONLY games or game modes, it accomplishes the same end, but minimizes hassles keeping the engine updated. (Not during EA, obviously. It has to be updated whenever any one of the supported games updates their game that changes something in the engine.

This is why the engine/gameplay that @Katherine K mentioned is so important. Presently there are no .dlls (that I know of) in the assets directory, just .jsons. The vision at present seems to be to code most functionality into the engine, and have the game assets be a glorified, massive set of config files. And, frankly, there's a lot to like about that. Look at the file sizes of the basic game (in the install directory). Most are measured in kB, only two in mB, and those both are around 2. The uninstall is the biggest thing in that directory!

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CastIronFabric Steel Worker

CastIronFabric

Posted
Posted (edited)
8 minutes ago, Thorfinn said:

Or... just hear me out, place a screen one level earlier in the Anego engine where you select the Game, then select the Mode, for those games that have modes? Granted, that means the mods directory in the base game install directory should no longer be used for user-level mods, but that's what the plaintext file in that directory already says. If that directory housed ONLY games or game modes, it accomplishes the same end, but minimizes hassles keeping the engine updated. (Not during EA, obviously. It has to be updated whenever any one of the supported games updates their game that changes something in the engine.

This is why the engine/gameplay that @Katherine K mentioned is so important. Presently there are no .dlls (that I know of) in the assets directory, just .jsons. The vision at present seems to be to code most functionality into the engine, and have the game assets be a glorified, massive set of config files. And, frankly, there's a lot to like about that. Look at the file sizes of the basic game (in the install directory). Most are measured in kB, only two in mB, and those both are around 2. The uninstall is the biggest thing in that directory!

I do not see the advantage and even on a technical level is appears to cause more confusion than needed.

Just fork the game out to a separate experience and go....share updates just like Space Engineers and Medieval Engineers did.

Keep the two projects logically separate which is always easier to maintain and it helps the users as well.

Not to mention if they do create two separate projects the level of customization skyrockets for the other project. They do not have to use existing fork, they could even go back to the very first build of VS and build off of that if they like or not. a lot more flexibility

 

Edited by CastIronFabric
Thorfinn Historian

Thorfinn

Posted
Posted
1 minute ago, CastIronFabric said:

Space Engineers and Medieval Engineers did not do that.

Their developers obviously are operating under a different vision. Anego might ultimately have to go that route, too, because player bias is for the familiar. I think it would be unfortunate to have foreclosed on what, to me, seems a no brainer in terms of good ideas. But I'm just one player.

CastIronFabric Steel Worker

CastIronFabric

Posted
Posted
Just now, Thorfinn said:

Their developers obviously are operating under a different vision. Anego might ultimately have to go that route, too, because player bias is for the familiar. I think it would be unfortunate to have foreclosed on what, to me, seems a no brainer in terms of good ideas. But I'm just one player.

Well then I disagree with their vision on that. I know that might seem sacrilege to many but just because its their vision does not mean its a good idea.

 Anyway, from a development standpoint if one wants to create a stand alone experience that is significantly different from the main branch then keeping the two separate will allow for a lot more flexibility for both and the consumer will not end up making long threads discussing why, how, what, who

 

Thorfinn Historian

Thorfinn

Posted
Posted
2 minutes ago, CastIronFabric said:

Anyway, from a development standpoint if one wants to create a stand alone experience that is significantly different from the main branch then keeping the two separate will allow for a lot more flexibility for both and the consumer will not end up making long threads discussing why, how, what, who

That is the standard paradigm, yes. Is it right? Maybe. Time may tell. All the late discussion of IP has me wondering. For example, I could not fork it without making substantial changes, which means whatever some judge thinks it means.

But, if I were to develop something based on it, and direct you to Anego to download the engine, everything is peachy-keen. And from a community point of view, I would actually like to have some button to "Browse Other Anego Engine Games". I'll never have to fiddle with sound or graphics or anything else, because once I have the engine set up correctly, I'm done. No fiddling around trying to get inventory mapped to the key of my preference, it just defaults to whatever my Anego engine settings are.

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CastIronFabric Steel Worker

CastIronFabric

Posted
Posted (edited)
6 minutes ago, Thorfinn said:

That is the standard paradigm, yes. Is it right? Maybe. Time may tell. All the late discussion of IP has me wondering. For example, I could not fork it without making substantial changes, which means whatever some judge thinks it means.

But, if I were to develop something based on it, and direct you to Anego to download the engine, everything is peachy-keen. And from a community point of view, I would actually like to have some button to "Browse Other Anego Engine Games". I'll never have to fiddle with sound or graphics or anything else, because once I have the engine set up correctly, I'm done. No fiddling around trying to get inventory mapped to the key of my preference, it just defaults to whatever my Anego engine settings are.

I do not know if its standard or not, but in this context it makes the most sense to me.

I am sorry 'because the devs want to do it' is not a good enough reason for me to say 'oh well then I agree its a good idea'

 

I will say this though, I have worked on a project that tried to do two logically different things as one package as a developer and it did not work.

I ended up making two separate programs and that worked out a lot better for me. I do not think that is exclusively true in all cases however.

Edited by CastIronFabric
Echo Weaver Historian

Echo Weaver

Posted
Posted
1 hour ago, CastIronFabric said:

I am sorry 'because the devs want to do it' is not a good enough reason for me to say 'oh well then I agree its a good idea'

I'm sorry, but you don't have to agree it's a good idea. What you think just don't matter.

The only people qualified to make this decision are making it. This ceaseless armchair quaterbacking is pointless.

The only way anyone's opinion matters is if they start their own company and do it their way.

  • Like 1
Facethief Steel Worker

Facethief

Posted
Posted
2 hours ago, Echo Weaver said:

The only way anyone's opinion matters is if they start their own company and do it their way.

Or if they can sue. Or buy the company. Not like that’s happening here, but still.

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