Power Creep

[KoviBat]

I am aware combat is brought up a lot, but I just want to provide my analysis of issues I take with it. This is not to bash the devs or rant.

I think the game has a huge issue with power creep in the enemies. The difference between a surface drifter and nightmare drifter is that their health and damage go up by a lot. Nothing else changes. This doesn't make them more difficult, it makes them more tedious. You fight them in the same way, just for longer. It drags out fights. They don't need to only take a single hit to kill, but having HP max out at maybe 30 would be a lot more reasonable, considering that our weapons don't scale nearly as fast.

Shivers and Drifters deal more damage than polar bears at high-tiers. Sure, this is intended to make you use armor in areas like story locations or deep caving, but the problem arises during Temporal Storms, when they show up without you having any control. This makes the storm utterly boring, because your only option is to stay inside, and it makes it clear that the storm itself isn't a threat to you.

Seriously, all this does is drag out fights into a slugfest. Having more enemy types with comparable health pools would be a lot more fun. We could also use some more variety in environments aside from the close-quarters of hallways and caves, but the long-range threats would require a complete behavior overhaul.

Combat Overhaul does address some of the problems with the core systems, but it's a band-aid solution. This is something that needs to be addressed at a core design level, and I'm aware this isn't a problem that can be solved overnight. It is going to take a lot of effort and time to develop. I just want to provide some input to make sure that the end product is nudged in the right direction.

[LadyWYT]

48 minutes ago, KoviBat said:

The difference between a surface drifter and nightmare drifter is that their health and damage go up by a lot. Nothing else changes. This doesn't make them more difficult, it makes them more tedious. You fight them in the same way, just for longer. It drags out fights. They don't need to only take a single hit to kill, but having HP max out at maybe 30 would be a lot more reasonable, considering that our weapons don't scale nearly as fast.

Not quite. Tier 3 and 4 drifters have significant knockback on their melee attacks, which makes them even more dangerous in comparison to their lower tier counterparts. I'd also note that most drifters encountered will probably be Tier 3 or below, which means they will have 30 HP or less at default settings. The Nightmare tier, meanwhile, really lives up to its name...you really don't want to be encountering those on the regular.

 

50 minutes ago, KoviBat said:

Shivers and Drifters deal more damage than polar bears at high-tiers. Sure, this is intended to make you use armor in areas like story locations or deep caving, but the problem arises during Temporal Storms, when they show up without you having any control. This makes the storm utterly boring, because your only option is to stay inside, and it makes it clear that the storm itself isn't a threat to you.

Temporal storms are unnatural disasters, so you really shouldn't have any control over when they show up or where they spawn monsters, outside of the world settings and maybe a gadget that protects a certain area from spawns(tech update idea?) You can fight through the storm if you wish and get some rare items for the effort, or you can play it safer and hide in a bunker. I say "safer" in regards to hiding, because it's still quite possible for a monster to surprise you indoors on occasion(this happened to a friend and I recently and it really got that adrenaline going).

 

54 minutes ago, KoviBat said:

Seriously, all this does is drag out fights into a slugfest. Having more enemy types with comparable health pools would be a lot more fun. We could also use some more variety in environments aside from the close-quarters of hallways and caves, but the long-range threats would require a complete behavior overhaul.

Combat Overhaul does address some of the problems with the core systems, but it's a band-aid solution. This is something that needs to be addressed at a core design level, and I'm aware this isn't a problem that can be solved overnight. It is going to take a lot of effort and time to develop. I just want to provide some input to make sure that the end product is nudged in the right direction.

Overall, I think the combat system does its job well. It's simple enough that new players can understand it right away and get things done, but complex enough to offer several options for a variety of situations(ie, which gear is "best" depends on circumstances). 

With the monsters I do agree there is some room for improvement, but I think instead of changing the monsters we have now, the better solution is to add more monsters to the mix somewhere down the road. Of course, I would keep following the current template for future monsters as well, in that they're relatively simple, and the more challenging mechanics saved for boss fights. I'll also note that while the monsters are individually simple, the true challenge usually comes from mixing them together. Drifters are simple, until you have a couple of bowtorn shooting at you, and a shiver playing hit-and-run with your heels.

As for environment variety...it really depends on your circumstances. Monsters are commonly found underground, as are ore-laden caves and the more lucrative ruins, so it's a common place for players to have to deal with them as a result. Monsters can be found on the surface as well, but that tends to be during nighttime rift activity or during a temporal storm...both scenarios that the player likely avoids unless they really want/need to deal with that situation. Outside of story locations(which are special cases), I'm not really sure how you really add more "environment" to monster encounters, aside from adding very rare special ruins or aquatic monsters(you'd need reason to be underwater though/have a good way to deal with them).

[lifewater]

I overall agree with this sentiment.  Combat overall leaves a lot to be desired, and creating the VS version of a bullet sponge doesn't feel great.  The drops in general do not fit the risk/reward ratio, especially when a heavy storm comes.  And by the time those come around you've already gotten a gear necessary to make a bind point... which to me is the only reason to even participate.

The risk/reward balance feels better for caving since you stand to gain much more from that adventure.

Aside from a revamp to combat and mob spawning, I'm not sure of a way to make it feel better either.  

[Echo Weaver]

Perhaps I am the only player on the thread right now who is not into hard-core combat. I consider nightmare drifters to be a big change from surface because nightmare drifters can one-shot me in fairly good armor. This requires a lot of strategy when they turn up in temporal storms. I admit that I do generally "stay inside," as in luring foes into pit traps from which I can kill them using trapdoors. Running around in free-for-all mele is not terribly appealing to me.

In vanilla, I think the rusty and temporal gears are plenty incentive to fight rust beasts, but I do think the frequency of getting no loot or just a flax fiber from high-tier rust beasts is pretty demoralizing. There are half a bajillion mods changing rot beast loot. I personally think most go too far, either making rot beasts too profitable or cluttering up my inventory with too much variety of stuff that doesn't add much value. My favorite right now is Rot Lot Loot.

Edited September 3, 2025 by Echo Weaver
Removed repeated words

[Dirty_Wizard]

I agree. The Minecraft-style combat in this game is not complex enough to justify enemies that are basically just huge damage sponges. It would be better to have enemies in the late game spawn tons of alts or something, or have crazy abilities like cloaking or teleporting, rather than have stupid amounts of hp. 

[Bruno Willis]

Personally I'd like (or hate) to see higher tier shivers crawling on the walls and celling towards me like locusts can. I think that'd be good and creepy, especially if they drop off the ceiling when they have their shivering spells. Yuck!  

I've also seen a suggestion for bowtorn to be less accurate at lower tiers, and get more accurate, or alternatively to get rapid-fire bursts at high tiers but no improvement to health. 

I feel like the drifters are great as is though: they're chunky little chaps, why wouldn't they get harder to kill with more bits of rusty metal bolted on?

[LadyWYT]

5 minutes ago, Bruno Willis said:

Personally I'd like (or hate) to see higher tier shivers crawling on the walls and celling towards me like locusts can.

Boy do I have some good news for you! https://mods.vintagestory.at/shivertweaks

That's not all that mod does, by the way...

[CastIronFabric]

On 9/3/2025 at 6:08 PM, Dirty_Wizard said:

I agree. The Minecraft-style combat in this game is not complex enough to justify enemies that are basically just huge damage sponges. It would be better to have enemies in the late game spawn tons of alts or something, or have crazy abilities like cloaking or teleporting, rather than have stupid amounts of hp. 

 

I personally find the concept of having a build site restricted because of 'temporary stability', having to stop building because of a storm to go to a hide hole, staring at a wall for 10 mins in early game, hitting drifters in late game for no other reason that that they are in the way..all to be completely absurd game mechanics and I will never understand why anyone would enjoy that (nor do I care to hear why one would enjoy that). I have played combat in building crafting games for more than a decade now, I am done, baked, finished, ready for new ideas, new concepts.

Although I am immutable on all this and its not up really for any kind of debate, I do feel release for now saying it out loud. But to be clear, I do not want to engage in qualifying statements as to why one finds that enjoyable. I am just getting something off my chest.

 

 

[Thorfinn]

I hear you, @CastIronFabric.

"Let's make this game just like all the other builder games since the '80s." 

It's gone stale. The idea of boss battles seems to be the one product of the boomers that people love and want more of. But I've been on this topic before. I love thinking tactically, and find the changeups in monsters a challenge. Unfortunately, it usually doesn't last. For example, storms are still as easy as they ever were. It's just the preferred terrain is no longer a flat arena, but a lightly-forested hilly one. I'm pretty good at boss battles, too. But the "AI" chooses between too few options. The Eidolon is one of figuring out how to trigger the almost comically weak melee attack every time, all the time, but dodging. And that lets whatever healing you do need go through.

This game has a refreshing take on making the penalties for armor enough to give one pause. Better armor is no longer an unameliorated good thing, but rather a trade-off that makes you think about the foes you are going to meet and prepare contingencies for if Plan A fails. Nerfing those penalties was not a step in the right direction, unless the goal was to become just another "me, too" game.

I just no longer find the combat arms race good gameplay. I've moved on.

[CastIronFabric]

29 minutes ago, Thorfinn said:

I hear you, @CastIronFabric.

"Let's make this game just like all the other builder games since the '80s." 

 

I cant resist.

name 20 'building games' that do not have violence between the years 1980-2013. It should go without saying it would be in your best intrest to make that list compelling rather than listing games nobody has ever heard or or games in which maybe 10% of the game is 'building'

Edited September 6, 2025 by CastIronFabric

[Thorfinn]

9 minutes ago, CastIronFabric said:

name 20 'building games' that do not have violence between the years 1980-2013

Exactly. Which is why I'm at a bit of a loss why you don't like the changeup in stability. Everyone does combat, and mostly in the same way. I don't know of any other games that used any mechanic to make you not settle down in the very first location you liked. It may not be the greatest thing since sliced bread, but at least it's different.

[Diff]

1 minute ago, Thorfinn said:

I don't know of any other games that used any mechanic to make you not settle down in the very first location you liked.

Satisfactory does this in a nifty way. The Easy starting location has relatively easy-to-deal-with wildlife, large open flat areas to build, and several nearby nodes with exactly what you need to start out. It's great for getting started and learning. It's only once you learn the mechanics of the game that you realize this location sucks, the ore nodes are all impure and inherently halve the efficiency of any factory you build just based on those impure materials, and all of the even slightly more advanced resources are a long walk away.

[CastIronFabric]

11 minutes ago, Thorfinn said:

Exactly. Which is why I'm at a bit of a loss why you don't like the changeup in stability. Everyone does combat, and mostly in the same way. I don't know of any other games that used any mechanic to make you not settle down in the very first location you liked. It may not be the greatest thing since sliced bread, but at least it's different.

I am totally and completely confused as to what you are saying or what your position is and that is likely my fault not yours.

 

[CastIronFabric]

50 minutes ago, Diff said:

Satisfactory does this in a nifty way. The Easy starting location has relatively easy-to-deal-with wildlife, large open flat areas to build, and several nearby nodes with exactly what you need to start out. It's great for getting started and learning. It's only once you learn the mechanics of the game that you realize this location sucks, the ore nodes are all impure and inherently halve the efficiency of any factory you build just based on those impure materials, and all of the even slightly more advanced resources are a long walk away.

I do not know what @Diff or @Thorfinn are talking about.

-The main reason I do not play with Temporal Stability on is that I want build where ever I want. I have no idea what you guys are talking about regarding a 'change' or that in VS you can build whereever you want with Temporal Stability on or cant or can or what? 'Changeup'? what 'changeup'?

[Thorfinn]

It's just that combat has become stale, and deliberate or not, the game is seeking to discourage it. Try out a different gameplay loop.

Base-building (I hate that term in this or really any game. In this game, homesteading would be more appropriate) has also become stale. This game deliberately chose to make some otherwise lovely building sites undesirable. You may not like the mechanism, but few have come up with anything at all to discourage slapping buildings down willy-nilly anywhere you see fit. You have to adjust your playstyle to the game, not the other way around.

[Diff]

Closer to the original topic, I get the feeling that the VS devs might already be planning to escape the power creep difficulty scaling. Right now we've got 3 flavors of Tier 4 Shiver, seems like the perfect starting point for some more combat variety since they're (mostly) just reskins right now as far as I'm aware. Identical drops, stats, practically identical behavior, no reason to have them if not for future schemery, right?

[LadyWYT]

23 minutes ago, CastIronFabric said:

-The main reason I do not play with Temporal Stability on is that I want build where ever I want. I have no idea what you guys are talking about regarding a 'change' or that in VS you can build whereever you want with Temporal Stability on or cant or can or what? 'Changeup'? what 'changeup'?

Hence why the option to turn off the temporal stability mechanic exists--not everyone is going to enjoy it, and some just want to build or explore in relative peace without having to deal with it. Which is totally fine, by the way.

If something were to change about the current implementation of temporal stability though, I'd keep it as-is, but add a piece of Jonas tech to counteract the chunk instability. That way temporal stability still poses a concern in the earlier portion of the game, but you could still settle in whatever spot you like and have something else to work towards in the late game. It also gives more options for what to spend your gears and Jonas parts on, which is sorely needed.

2 minutes ago, Thorfinn said:

It's just that combat has become stale, and deliberate or not, the game is seeking to discourage it. Try out a different gameplay loop.

I might be a bit of an odd one out here, but I do like the fact that the game doesn't make combat the default way to get ahead. There are times that you need to go fight things, of course, and there is some reward for general combat efforts, but overall Vintage Story encourages the player to pick their battles carefully.

Granted, I don't mind more combat options either, but it can get pretty stale having to slaughter my way through practically everything in order to make any progress in a game. 

[LadyWYT]

Just now, Diff said:

Right now we've got 3 flavors of Tier 4 Shiver, seems like the perfect starting point for some more combat variety since they're (mostly) just reskins right now as far as I'm aware. Identical drops, stats, practically identical behavior, no reason to have them if not for future schemery, right?

You don't even have to wait for that--someone did it with a mod: https://mods.vintagestory.at/shivertweaks

Not only does it allow shivers to actually climb, but it makes the bellhead ones function similar to their namesake.

[CastIronFabric]

6 minutes ago, LadyWYT said:

Hence why the option to turn off the temporal stability mechanic exists--not everyone is going to enjoy it, and some just want to build or explore in relative peace without having to deal with it. Which is totally fine, by the way.

If something were to change about the current implementation of temporal stability though, I'd keep it as-is, but add a piece of Jonas tech to counteract the chunk instability. That way temporal stability still poses a concern in the earlier portion of the game, but you could still settle in whatever spot you like and have something else to work towards in the late game. It also gives more options for what to spend your gears and Jonas parts on, which is sorely needed.

I might be a bit of an odd one out here, but I do like the fact that the game doesn't make combat the default way to get ahead. There are times that you need to go fight things, of course, and there is some reward for general combat efforts, but overall Vintage Story encourages the player to pick their battles carefully.

Granted, I don't mind more combat options either, but it can get pretty stale having to slaughter my way through practically everything in order to make any progress in a game. 

I was confused by the statement  'changeup in stability'. I assume the option has more or less been there for a long time so I am not sure what 'changeup' is being refered to here.

Regardless and moving on, even though I turn off stability and hostiles I still make amour and weapons before going deep cave diving. I do like the idea of preparing for an adventure but I am not a fan of combat itself anymore. Also, a dev can make 'prepare for an adventure'' in many different ways other than armor and weapons. My default example would be Stationeers.

Also, building games that basically require combat to progress I am reminded of why I do not play The Forest. I forget exactly what it was but there is something that you need that you can only get from killing dead bodies. Thus even though you can turn off hostiles you cant really move forward. I think anyway, its been a long time.

Edited September 6, 2025 by CastIronFabric

[Thorfinn]

7 minutes ago, Diff said:

Right now we've got 3 flavors of Tier 4 Shiver, seems like the perfect starting point for some more combat variety since they're (mostly) just reskins right now as far as I'm aware. Identical drops, stats, practically identical behavior, no reason to have them if not for future schemery, right?

Exactly. Skins to add new AI routines, or to adjust the likelihood of any particular choice. Easy-peasy to change up the chance of flee on damage or seek to get out of sunlight, or whatever you like. It looks a lot to me like a paint-by-numbers -- the outline is there. Just "paint" them whatever color you like using the JSONs.

Edited September 6, 2025 by Thorfinn

[Diff]

39 minutes ago, CastIronFabric said:

I was confused by the statement  'changeup in stability'. I assume the option has more or less been there for a long time so I am not sure what 'changeup' is being refered to here.

The change in stability in the mechanics of the overall genre. VS doing something different versus the same thing since "the 80s."

41 minutes ago, CastIronFabric said:

Regardless and moving on, even though I turn off stability and hostiles I still make amour and weapons before going deep cave diving. I do like the idea of preparing for an adventure but I am not a fan of combat itself anymore. Also, a dev can make 'prepare for an adventure'' in many different ways other than armor and weapons. My default example would be Stationeers.

We get a bit of this sometimes. The other day I went out for what I thought would be a quick copper prospecting follow up, stumbled on a cave, and accidentally extinguished my torch while exploring, leaving me unprepared in the dark surrounded by quartz I couldn't mine, trying to wall myself off from monsters in the dark, and chipping away at any quartzless stone I could feel around for, hoping to break into the ocean before I starved to death, before my last pick broke, and before a monster either wandered past my barricades or just spawned behind them with me with help from my exhausted temporal stability.

[CastIronFabric]

27 minutes ago, Diff said:

The change in stability in the mechanics of the overall genre. VS doing something different versus the same thing since "the 80s."

 

that does not clear it up for me.

I do not think the overall genre even has stability mechanics so I am unclear

Nor am I clear on how people can build anywhere they like in VS with stability on.

I should tap out sooner rather than later.

Edited September 6, 2025 by CastIronFabric

[Bomboclaat]

You know what? Temporal storms could just flat out only spawn the specific type of enemy that you would see in the layer you are in, just like how Terraria only spawns zombies (surface enemies) during a blood moon, give every mob higher drop rates as well so it's actually worth participating in.

If you are underground then you will spawn a drifter of that layers specific tier and if you are at the bottom of the world you are guaranteed to get end game mobs going after you, high risk, high intensity, high reward, completely optional, lots of fun.

This is the exact opposite of my experience with my first temporal storm while playing solo, I was hiding in a box that wasn't air tight because I wanted to look outside and I somehow got one shot by a double headed drifter I didn't even see and I NEVER encountered one ever again in that 100 hour playthrough. Insane.
 

58 minutes ago, Diff said:

and accidentally extinguished my torch while exploring, leaving me unprepared in the dark surrounded by quartz I couldn't mine, trying to wall myself off from monsters in the dark, and chipping away at any quartzless stone I could feel around for

Dude. Just in case you didn't know there's a command you can do in the in game chat to end yourself and end your ordeal early "/kill". If you're trapped underground in complete and utter darkness thats the only thing you can do really.

Also make an oil lamp to carry around, it's permanent and water proof. Press X (or Z?) to carry it in your offhand. All it requires is one animal fat and one clay bowl.

[LadyWYT]

48 minutes ago, Bomboclaat said:

Dude. Just in case you didn't know there's a command you can do in the in game chat to end yourself and end your ordeal early "/kill". If you're trapped underground in complete and utter darkness thats the only thing you can do really.

Or I mean...if you're using the console, why not just switch to spectator mode(/gm 3) and fly out of the hole? You don't lose nutrition and hp that way.

[Bomboclaat]

17 minutes ago, LadyWYT said:

Or I mean...if you're using the console, why not just switch to spectator mode(/gm 3) and fly out of the hole? You don't lose nutrition and hp that way.

Oh no I'd never go far as breaking my suspension of belief and gaining the ability of flight out of thin air. Hell, there should be an actual suicide button as long as you got a weapon in hand just like in No More Room In Hell, that way falling into a pit in the ground with no pickaxe and no dirt wont be a guaranteed slow painful and agonizing death.

The only other reason for me to use the console is to do /land adminfreehere to remove property protections and steal Resonators from merchants and a Gamer chair/couch from Tobias.

Yes, I am a horrible person with horrible ideas.