A public apology

[TJ Pepler]

Earlier I made a post discussing adding AI features to Vintage Story.  I said things in a way that people took great offense to and I apologize.

I have been having a lot of fun participating in the community and playing with mods.  I have met some really cool people and I truly want to continue doing that!

I promise to never again bring up that topic and please forgive my poor word choices and allow me to continue to participate in the community as a friend.

And even though the user wont see this as I have rightfully been ignored, I am sorry for the manipulative tone of my post but I assure you that was not my intent, reading it again I see your point but for that too I apologize.

Thank you for reading this.

[hstone32]

Sorry, I don't intend to dig up old contentions, but I want to make sure of something. You're not referring to me, right? If so, I was by no means offended by your post. I just disagreed with your idea, is all.

I'm hoping you're just talking about some other person who might have commented in time since I last checked the topic. If that's not the case, I'm sorry if my critisisms came off as a personal attack. That wasn't my intent at all.

[TJ Pepler]

Reply, no not at all, it was another user who I don't want to name out of respect for their privacy and they didn't attack me, I was the one in the wrong.  I think I touched on a subject that is deeply personal to people and I think like religion and politics AI might be an issue with heated polar opposites.  I have a vastly different worldview on AI and it is not shared by the masses so I have learned from this experience that it is a topic best avoided.  I am totally having fun with my other mods Critcher's Map Notes and the all in one Critcher's Compendium and I have had some good feedback from the community so far.  I removed the whole thread and I just want to keep moving forward, being mindful of what I learned and continue participating in the community, and hopefully making some friends along the way  

[Teh Pizza Lady]

All I said was that AI was going to make decisions based on user input that was a VERY difficult problem to solve and then laid out a few examples of how LLMs are forced to make decisions based on partial inputs. I figured it would be an interesting ( and very difficult ) coding challenge for you, not a point of contention like religion or politics!

What happened while I was asleep??!??

[LadyWYT]

I don't recall the initial post being that bad, to be honest. Strange, yes, and at best a novel curiosity, at worst a novel curiosity that falls to the wayside pretty fast. At the time I checked, it had no replies, and I didn't bother leaving a reply since I didn't really have anything to say on the matter at the time.

2 hours ago, TJ Pepler said:

I think like religion and politics AI might be an issue with heated polar opposites.

Oh it definitely is. However, it's also been discussed on the forums before, without too much issue.

Not to really stir up a deleted thread, but the main issue I saw with what was proposed is that it's just not necessary. AI can be useful as a tool for looking up information, but it's also notorious for producing bad results. Vintage Story already has a handbook for looking up pretty much everything a player needs to know in the game, and one major component of the game design itself is that the player needs to become very good at thinking on their feet in order to solve whatever problems are being thrown at them at the time. AI integration is more likely to be a detriment there, than it is a help.

The screenshot filter thingy looked cool and was the most useful one I saw of the bunch. Arguments about artistry and how such AI is trained aside, I think the plainer mark against that idea is...couldn't a player just pop a screenshot into any image AI(whatever the technical term for these things is) and get similar results? I am thinking the answer is "yes", so to me it seems like it would be better to spend the development time and resources on something else.

2 hours ago, TJ Pepler said:

I have a vastly different worldview on AI and it is not shared by the masses so I have learned from this experience that it is a topic best avoided.

Honestly nothing wrong with having a different opinion on the subject. 

 

[Teh Pizza Lady]

15 minutes ago, LadyWYT said:

Oh it definitely is. However, it's also been discussed on the forums before, without too much issue.

Not to really stir up a deleted thread, but the main issue I saw with what was proposed is that it's just not necessary. AI can be useful as a tool for looking up information, but it's also notorious for producing bad results. Vintage Story already has a handbook for looking up pretty much everything a player needs to know in the game, and one major component of the game design itself is that the player needs to become very good at thinking on their feet in order to solve whatever problems are being thrown at them at the time. AI integration is more likely to be a detriment there, than it is a help.

I'll add onto this to say that the major hurdle I think here will be teaching Gemini or whatever AI tool is chosen to understand what the user wants. The 2nd major hurdle is teaching it how to respond. the 3rd major hurdle would be to make the workflow (user input to LLM output) seamless and more intuitive than just entering a game command.

[Crabsoft]

You guys missed one guy going full aggro about it. I'm a big ol' AI hater, but I also think not talking about things unless they're popular is a lot worse.

[Heart_Afire]

I must have definitely missed something going down while I was away and dealing with things, but I wanted to throw in my two cents that...

2 hours ago, Crabsoft said:

You guys missed one guy going full aggro about it

THIS is unacceptable, no matter the topic, and OP shouldn't be feeling the need to apologize to the community at large. Far more than the AI topic being discussed (I'll keep my opinions there to myself) the matter of a member of this community being snarled at by another to the point they felt the need to make a thread like this concerns me. That is bullying, pure and simple.

[Teh Pizza Lady]

2 hours ago, Crabsoft said:

You guys missed one guy going full aggro about it.

yeah that's what I gathered and that's NOT cool.

[Cetasaya]

I dunno what the original topic said but...

I despise AI.  Or at least what they all call AI and what it is now and the people desperate to force it into everything.  But it definitely has its (extremely limited) purposes and uses and REAL AI will (eventually) make the world a far far heathier, safer, more joyous, and more fun place to live in.  But as a longtime professional artist, AI and art (in all of its forms including video games) are about as diametrically opposed as they possibly can be.  And they always will be.  No matter how close to the singularity REAL AI will ever get.  Art is human.  Simple as that.  A machine MAY be able to ACTUALLY create something akin to art, but ART is HUMAN so it would still be a different thing.  Would a machine's "art" be as "valueable" as ours?  I dunno.  Could those machines feel ACTUAL joy and hate?  If so then probably.  If not, then no.  AI can EVENTAULLY be a TOOL to use for art, but it is now and will be fopr a long time, will never be the ORIGIN for GOOD art.  Just like our modern computers.  But lmfao AI is absolutely nowhere near where it needs to be for ANY of that to matter and it won't be for a looooong time.  If we survive as species it WILL attain its uses but not in my lifetime, that's for sure.  Hell our AI can't even be technically called AI at all it's so unbelievably primitive.  99% of the population just don't know anything about ACTUAL AI and that's kinda sad.

So about AI in Vintage Story?  IMO absolute not.  Not in any way.  Not even in the smallest of shortcuts or whatever.  It's about more than "just" AI.  It's about losing the entire fucking goddamn purpose of developing a video game past just making money.  If someone is gonna use AI to "create" art, why are they even alive?  Seriously.  Why are they even here?  Just cause they fear death?  Cause they wanna make easy money?  Cynical.  Shallow.  And once you start leaning on a crutch, it becomes the floor, then it becomes your grave.  Today it would be "just one texture".  Then, "just one animation".  Then on and on, wider and wider, deeper and deeper.

if Vintage Story ever uses AI in any capacity I would immediately drop the game and not look back.  Cause that would indicate a far deeper rot and moral failing in the devs and I ain't gonna stick around to watch this awesome game with so much incredible potential slowly weaken and die.

And also we forum members need to remember to attack IDEAS and not PEOPLE.  We're not facebook or twatter.  And IMO those that attack people need to be immediately and permanently IP banned.  We cannot be tolerant of intolerance that's why the world is in the mess that it is.  We're so soft and gentle that the bad guys aren't being properly dealt with.  Ban hammers should never be used frivolously, but they should be used when they have to be, and they must be heavy.  Not saying none of this is happening just saying it all in case someone out there needs to hear it.

Edited December 16, 2025 by Cetasaya

[Crabsoft]

38 minutes ago, Cetasaya said:

I dunno what the original topic said but...

Hilariously enough, your post is kind of hitting the nail on the head. OP wanted to talk about 3 different mods they were working on and some guy just couldn't resist getting mad about super unrelated AI stuff. It was more important for them to let everyone know their deep feelings than to engage with the topic.

[cjc813]

6 hours ago, Cetasaya said:

I dunno what the original topic said but...

I despise AI.  Or at least what they all call AI and what it is now and the people desperate to force it into everything.  But it definitely has its (extremely limited) purposes and uses and REAL AI will (eventually) make the world a far far heathier, safer, more joyous, and more fun place to live in.  But as a longtime professional artist, AI and art (in all of its forms including video games) are about as diametrically opposed as they possibly can be.  And they always will be.  No matter how close to the singularity REAL AI will ever get.  Art is human.  Simple as that.  A machine MAY be able to ACTUALLY create something akin to art, but ART is HUMAN so it would still be a different thing.  Would a machine's "art" be as "valueable" as ours?  I dunno.  Could those machines feel ACTUAL joy and hate?  If so then probably.  If not, then no.  AI can EVENTAULLY be a TOOL to use for art, but it is now and will be fopr a long time, will never be the ORIGIN for GOOD art.  Just like our modern computers.  But lmfao AI is absolutely nowhere near where it needs to be for ANY of that to matter and it won't be for a looooong time.  If we survive as species it WILL attain its uses but not in my lifetime, that's for sure.  Hell our AI can't even be technically called AI at all it's so unbelievably primitive.  99% of the population just don't know anything about ACTUAL AI and that's kinda sad.

So about AI in Vintage Story?  IMO absolute not.  Not in any way.  Not even in the smallest of shortcuts or whatever.  It's about more than "just" AI.  It's about losing the entire fucking goddamn purpose of developing a video game past just making money.  If someone is gonna use AI to "create" art, why are they even alive?  Seriously.  Why are they even here?  Just cause they fear death?  Cause they wanna make easy money?  Cynical.  Shallow.  And once you start leaning on a crutch, it becomes the floor, then it becomes your grave.  Today it would be "just one texture".  Then, "just one animation".  Then on and on, wider and wider, deeper and deeper.

if Vintage Story ever uses AI in any capacity I would immediately drop the game and not look back.  Cause that would indicate a far deeper rot and moral failing in the devs and I ain't gonna stick around to watch this awesome game with so much incredible potential slowly weaken and die.

And also we forum members need to remember to attack IDEAS and not PEOPLE.  We're not facebook or twatter.  And IMO those that attack people need to be immediately and permanently IP banned.  We cannot be tolerant of intolerance that's why the world is in the mess that it is.  We're so soft and gentle that the bad guys aren't being properly dealt with.  Ban hammers should never be used frivolously, but they should be used when they have to be, and they must be heavy.  Not saying none of this is happening just saying it all in case someone out there needs to hear it.

Tell us how you really feel.

[LadyWYT]

5 hours ago, Crabsoft said:

Hilariously enough, your post is kind of hitting the nail on the head. OP wanted to talk about 3 different mods they were working on and some guy just couldn't resist getting mad about super unrelated AI stuff. It was more important for them to let everyone know their deep feelings than to engage with the topic.

I was just thinking similar.

[Teh Pizza Lady]

6 hours ago, Crabsoft said:

Hilariously enough, your post is kind of hitting the nail on the head. OP wanted to talk about 3 different mods they were working on and some guy just couldn't resist getting mad about super unrelated AI stuff. It was more important for them to let everyone know their deep feelings than to engage with the topic.

irony in its finest.

[Teh Pizza Lady]

8 hours ago, Cetasaya said:

I dunno what the original topic said but...

Then maybe you shouldn't hijack this one to grandstand your opinions on the other deleted topic?

8 hours ago, Cetasaya said:

REAL AI will (eventually) make the world a far far heathier, safer, more joyous, and more fun place to live in

Movies are not reality. IN the case of "real" AI, what exactly do you think it is? A computer program with a living mind, soul, personality, etc? That is not possible and will never be achieved outside of movie script. It CAN be simulated, which is what the current AI we have today is attempting to do. However I would postulate that AI cannot replace basic human interactions which is what actually makes the world healthier, safer, more joyous, and more fun to live in.

8 hours ago, Cetasaya said:

Hell our AI can't even be technically called AI at all it's so unbelievably primitive.  99% of the population just don't know anything about ACTUAL AI and that's kinda sad.

Primitive? Yes, but any autonomous process that responds to input is still a form of AI. Even in the early 2000s when I was studying this stuff, even something as simple as an automated voice receptionist (AVR) was the pinnacle of AI, hearing you, deciphering what you're saying, running it through a neural network (the core of any AI) and arriving at a decision. Any form of text recognition, handwriting to text on your phone, or even just face recognition, pattern matching to a decision can be an AI if it involves teaching a neural network how to make decisions autonomously without external inputs. People have been using neural networks to teach computers how to play video games such as Trackmania, Pokemon, and Tetris.

8 hours ago, Cetasaya said:

So about AI in Vintage Story?  IMO absolute not.  Not in any way.  Not even in the smallest of shortcuts or whatever.  It's about more than "just" AI.  It's about losing the entire fucking goddamn purpose of developing a video game past just making money.  If someone is gonna use AI to "create" art, why are they even alive?  Seriously.  Why are they even here?  Just cause they fear death?  Cause they wanna make easy money?  Cynical.  Shallow.  And once you start leaning on a crutch, it becomes the floor, then it becomes your grave.  Today it would be "just one texture".  Then, "just one animation".  Then on and on, wider and wider, deeper and deeper.

OP was talking about making a mod. You aren't forced to use mods. Also your entire rest of your paragraph is filled with assumptions and Slippery Slope fallacies.

8 hours ago, Cetasaya said:

And also we forum members need to remember to attack IDEAS and not PEOPLE.

This is probably the only thing you wrote that I actually somewhat agree with. Ideas can be harmful...those should be attacked. People who are hurting others should be attacked in order to prevent them from causing further harm. You can almost never state anything as an absolute without there being an outlier to prove your statement wrong. However the problem I have with attacking ideas is when your perception of the idea crosses a boundary that you aren't willing to cross, but the other person sees no harm in it. Are you the moral police? Is it your place to judge whether something is good or not based on your own perception of the idea and the morals behind it?

Usually when it's a hotly debated topic (like AI, politics, or religion), it's best to just avoid making any opinionated statements, especially if you don't have anything nice to say, to avoid stirring up trouble and making things worse than if you had just kept it to yourself.

EDIT:
And yes, I realize the irony of my own last statement...

Edited December 16, 2025 by Teh Pizza Lady