Subclasses

[ifoz]

I had an idea about an interesting way to handle class buffs/debuffs and expanded classes - allowing players to subclass into one of two options depending on their starting class, or remain as they are.
At some point in the gameplay progression or the story progression, the player's Seraph would have been in the new world long enough to form a subclass, somewhat distinct from what they used to be.
What is a malefactor who is no longer on the run, a blackguard without their squadron, a clockmaker without the grand machine?

The subclasses would also not influence class-specific NPC dialogue or class backstory, as they are just adaptations of the base classes the Seraph has made after being in the world for some time.

The subclass choices would play into one specific aspect of that base class - tailor for example might have a choice between staying as a tailor, becoming an artisan (some cheaper crafts) or a merchant (cheaper trades, higher sell prices).

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These are the (very rough) ideas I've had for subclasses:

Hunter: Archer / Tracker
Archer would gain a further +5% ranged damage, +10% ranged accuracy and +5% ranged distance, at the cost of a +15% increased bow draw time. They have to line up their shots, after all!
Tracker would only really work if some way to track game was added. They would be able to track injured animals for longer without tracks fading away, and tracks would be more visually obvious to them. This would come at the cost of -10% ranged distance, since they would incentivise getting closer to prey.

Malefactor: Wanderer / Treasure Hunter
Wanderer gains the fleetfooted trait (+10% movement speed), as well as a -10% hunger rate, making them ideal for exploration and scouting work. This comes at the cost of a 10% ranged damage penalty, as well as a further loss of 1.5 health points.
The treasure hunter has the unique ability of rerolling loot tables. When they open a chest and the item inside is generated, the game rolls the loot table twice. Whichever option was rarer (had a lower % chance to appear) is the one that shows up instead. If both rolls have equal chances to appear, the game rolls a 50/50 chance for one or the other to appear. This comes at the cost of halving their default chances for double foraged items and cracked vessels.

Blackguard: Skirmisher / Bulwark
Skirmisher gains a further +5% attack damage, and +5% movement speed, at the cost of a 15% ranged distance penalty. Not all that different to regular blackguard, but I hope different enough that some might subclass into them while others remain as a normal blackguard.
Bulwark is designed as a pure tank. They lose 10% movement speed, making them the slowest class in the game. To compensate, they gain a further 10% attack damage, 10% attack speed, and shields will protect up to 15 damage per hit instead of the usual 10.

Clockmaker: Tinkerer / Engineer
The tinkerer would be able to turn any Jonas part into a different Jonas part, at the cost of some metal parts, cupornickel nails and strips and a temporal gear. Probably more useful once more Jonastech is added to the game. This would come at the cost of a furthered -5% melee damage, and +5% hunger rate. It was a little hard to come up with debuffs for them, so let me know if you have any better ideas.
The engineer would be able to command up to three regular locusts at once, two corrupt locusts, or one sawblade locust, making them into a sort of pseudo-summoner class. They would also gain an additional +5% damage to mechanical enemies. The tradeoff for this would be taking 10% more damage from mechanical enemies themselves, and -5% walkspeed, leaving them still faster than average but not quite fleetfooted.

Tailor: Artisan / Merchant
Artisan gets reduced requirements for certain important crafting recipes. Things like windmill sails, hides having a better fat-pelt ratio (1 fat for 3 medium hides, rather than for 2), and gets more clay voxels per clay item when making pottery.
Merchant gets 15% lowered prices on trades, and will sell items for 15% more. Basically just designed to give tailor players a lategame buying/selling clothes, and setting up trade routes to offset their weaknesses with bought items.
I really don't know what kinds of downsides I would give to each of these, as tailor is already quite weak. Let me know if you can think of any!

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I don't quite know how well these proposed stats would fit the basegame in an actual playthrough or multiplayer scenario, but even then something like this would be fun to see as a mod. I just thought subclasses would be an interesting way to flesh out character progression and add some variety, and tried to make a good few of them somewhat unique and not just reliant on stat buffs.

Anyway, this was just a fun idea I had! Let me know what you think, how you would balance it, or if any of these sound a bit too overpowered compared to their regular class. 

Edited March 26 by ifoz

[Emeal]

I don't know if this is the right call for the game, but I would love the idea that you could progress your class in some way.

I think with subclasses we should also be careful about creating some that might be good classes on their own, the game is new and I hope we get to see more classes.
I think a Merchant Class would be cool and I think the game needs another melee focused class. (A Knight of the Forlorn Hope)

[MKMoose]

I feel like somewhere in here there's an absolutely amazing way to turn RPG-like levelling into something much more interesting and immersive. The exact mechanics are a bit up in the air, but the general idea of player progression by slightly tweaking the class identity sounds very enticing.

I think it would be fine enough to keep them limited to buffs in most cases, though, especially in the case of the clockmaker's proposed upgrades due to how niche they tend to be.

I think Tyron has expressed interest in allowing some traits to be gained during gameplay, so I think something like this is absolutely on the table for the future.

[Broccoli Clock]

For me this sits at the divide of the single/multi player environment. 

I really like classes for MP. It helps separate this game from its very dull corporate neighbour. Those classes are not ideal, but they do fundamentally affect the dynamic.
SP is a bit different. I don't know how many people choose a class for SP. If they do I presume it's just to specialise, such as Hunter. 

Would a more granular approach to classes and their progression, in an MP environment, add to the game? I think probably, people do buy into their character online and will be more lore specific when using it. Would it help SP? Not sure, if anything I think an extra layer of nerfs/buffs would end up being a negative in SP. 

In general, I like classes, even though I always play commoner, I think perhaps waiting to see how the game progresses would be the best way. As in the classes conform to the development of the game, the game doesn't develop to conform to the classes.

I'm wary of character progression, not just in VS but with other similar games, it's a fine balancing act and one that if judged badly can really hamper a game.

[ifoz]

2 hours ago, Emeal said:

I think the game needs another melee focused class. (A Knight of the Forlorn Hope)

While a knight of the order would be cool, I don't know how they would be all that distinct from the existing blackguard.
Both are soldiers/fighters, the main difference being that the forlorn hope were cavalry fighters while the blackguard fought on foot in the enclosed tunnels.
I could potentially see a forlorn knight getting a faster riding/turning speed when on an elk as some kind of rider/horsemanship perk, but other than that I imagine they would both play somewhat similarly.
I would propose a slight movespeed perk to a forlorn knight given that they fought in slightly lighter armour, but I think that would make them a bit too powerful, if they were a combat-focused class with a speed buff.

Edited March 26 by ifoz

[ifoz]

58 minutes ago, Broccoli Clock said:

I'm wary of character progression, not just in VS but with other similar games, it's a fine balancing act and one that if judged badly can really hamper a game.

Agreed. While I don't know how well my own proposed subclasses would fit a theoretical playthrough experience, I tried to generally keep them somewhat similar to the niche of their original classes (both Malefactor subclasses still play into being a scout and a scavenger, for example) so that the subclasses hopefully wouldn't play wildly different from their base class.
They are moreso designed with multiplayer and roleplay purposes in mind though, so players with similar playstyles could still spec into slightly different niches depending on which aspects they preferred. One malefactor player might like exploration and stealth, opting for the wanderer subclass, while another might like raiding ruins and so opt for the treasure hunter. No matter which they pick their malefactor is still good at both, they are just slightly better in one or the other. It's kind of like choosing what elements of the original class' playstyle you like best, and further amplifying them a little bit.

I do think VS' base classes are decently balanced though, aside from tailor who would greatly benefit from the future addition of immersive weaving. The fact you can ask around and get all sorts of different answers to "which class is best?" questions goes to show that generally, all of the classes are about roughly as good as each other.

Edited March 26 by ifoz

[ifoz]

1 hour ago, MKMoose said:

I think it would be fine enough to keep them limited to buffs in most cases, though, especially in the case of the clockmaker's proposed upgrades due to how niche they tend to be.

I was generally trying to give them small debuffs with the idea that the player could opt not to subclass, instead just staying with their original class. With debuffs, it creates a reason for certain players to stick with their original, kind of giving each class three different variants.

[LadyWYT]

I like the idea, but I would prefer that the concept be handled via status effects or earnable traits rather than a prompt to pick a secondary class. This way, the player has a way to develop their character further, in a way that feels very natural to how the game progresses. Want an archery boost? Better start practicing, or pay an NPC trainer for help! Consistently surviving fights could make a character tougher. Forming a habit of eating poisonous things and managing to survive could build up a resistance to toxins, etc.

One thing I do want to note--movement speed increase is a nice bonus, but not a very balanced one in the current state of the game. If you look at the classes as they are now, Blackguard stands out as the one that should be moving around faster in armor. However, if you actually compare the numbers between Blackguard and Hunter/Clockmaker, the latter will be faster in every single instance except plate, in which case the classes are tied. I don't think movement speed should be removed as a trait, however, I do think it should be reworked so that it only applies when the player is not wearing armor that imposes a movement penalty. That way it still remains useful for scouting or skirmishing, but won't be so useful that the class/trait starts to become an instant pick in every circumstance.

8 hours ago, ifoz said:

Bulwark is designed as a pure tank. They lose 10% movement speed, making them the slowest class in the game. To compensate, they gain a further 10% attack damage, 10% attack speed, and shields will protect up to 15 damage per hit instead of the usual 10.

Incidentally, the above is why I'm not a fan of this particular sub-class example, even though it's usually what I like to play. The idea is nice and all, but without a way to make the enemies target the Bulwark, it becomes underwhelming rather quickly. The extra attack damage and speed only applies if the Bulwark can actually catch the the target...which isn't going to happen in a PvP situation and isn't likely to happen in PvE either as that's usually enough of a movement speed drop to allow faster enemies to start outrunning the player. The extra protection on shields helps a little for survival, at least in a PvE situation, but for a PvP situation it's not going to help very much since a faster target can easily use hit-and-run tactics to whittle down the Bulwark.

Now to be fair, I don't think the game needs to be balanced around PvP, and PvP servers will generally need additional rules/mods anyway to balance combat however the players think is appropriate. However, I do think it's a good idea to look at potential PvP balance to get a sense of how each class balances against the others. If there's a trait, like the current movement speed, that is a little too useful in most situations, then it's likely to prompt players to start picking that class/trait by default rather than miss out on that utility.

[Emeal]

16 minutes ago, LadyWYT said:

I like the idea, but I would prefer that the concept be handled via status effects or earnable traits rather than a prompt to pick a secondary class. This way, the player has a way to develop their character further, in a way that feels very natural to how the game progresses. Want an archery boost? Better start practicing, or pay an NPC trainer for help!

Doing a thing to be better at doing a thing is a very common suggestion and I love it. Its the main reason we use XLib/ Skills on out Server.
It also makes grind less tedious when you see oh my skill has increased time to unlock a new farming skill. Its pure fun.

[LadyWYT]

5 minutes ago, Emeal said:

Doing a thing to be better at doing a thing is a very common suggestion and I love it. Its the main reason we use XLib/ Skills on out Server.
It also makes grind less tedious when you see oh my skill has increased time to unlock a new farming skill. Its pure fun.

I do like XSkills, but it struggles in multiplayer if not everyone is playing at the same general frequency. I also feel it could have benefited from having a stricter implementation, in that the player has a limited number of total skill points they earn, and can either choose to invest them broadly for several small bonuses or choose to focus on a couple of specific areas to be really strong at specific tasks(like farming or combat). As it stands(at least last time I played), there's not really any limit on how far the player can advance themselves, other than the handful of skills that are mutually exclusive.

In regards to earnable traits, some of them could be permanent, but I think a lot of them could just require "light maintenance" in order to actually keep, similar to how the player needs to eat different food occasionally to keep nutrition. Practicing archery for a long time could grant a bonus to ranged damage and accuracy, but proceeding to go for a while without really using that skill at all should also cause the player to lose that acquired trait.

[Bruno Willis]

5 hours ago, LadyWYT said:

In regards to earnable traits, some of them could be permanent, but I think a lot of them could just require "light maintenance" in order to actually keep, similar to how the player needs to eat different food occasionally to keep nutrition. Practicing archery for a long time could grant a bonus to ranged damage and accuracy, but proceeding to go for a while without really using that skill at all should also cause the player to lose that acquired trait.

I see where you're going with the status effects idea here and I really like it. Practice your archery for a a bit before going hunting to add a bit of accuracy and range, or set up a manakin and swing at it with your falx to get back into shape before heading into the first story location. That'd be really satisfying.