Planes; Gameplay, balance and other stuff

[Helst_navngivet]

We just got the glider on our server. Its pretty fun, as we have a very tall mountain, and a tower to build-height on said mountain. You can build up quite a hefty amount of speed, however, our lust for more speed is yet to be filled. 

I then had the genius idea of: "What if we had a plane/glider mod that went really fast?"

and we both agreed that it would be pretty fun.

However, there should be a reason as to why you shouldnt just use this super-glider forever and always. My idea would be all of the following;

1) it would be very expensive in the long run. It would require frequent repairs after use, like replacing flax in the wings, structural repairs, etc.

2) it would be too fast. This one i was kind of "meh" on, as it could work, however i dont know how fun it would be. The idea was to make a sort of rocket engine, powered by a huge load of blasting powder, that would then accelerate you extremely quickly. You would not be able to turn it off again, only moderating how much coolant and/or oxidiser it would get(see 3) for more info), subsequently making the plane slightly slower/faster. 

3) it would be very hard to fly. things like wings ripping off under high G turns and engine overheating would be something you would have to manage when piloting. The pilot would also have to duck and look through a small glass window in the fuselage after high speed because their eyes are dried out by the wind, which would result in blurry vision. This could probably be negated somewhat by the snow goggle thingys.

4) recovery would be a slog. This would mean it would be fun for... well.. fun, however it wouldnt be particularly nice to use over long distances, as you would have to haul it all the way home.

any other suggestions for balancing ideas?

(sorry for the bad english btw, it is not my first language)

Edited Monday at 09:45 AM by Helst_navngivet
changed title for the second time because i keep on expanding beyond the original topic

[Chrondeath]

Require a runway to take off and land.  Maybe an intentionally constructed one or maybe let long stretches of desert work; running into a bush at high speeds should kill you.  Point is to require infrastructure at the departure and destination sites, making it more like a scenic and controllable translocator and less like a replacement for all other forms of transport. 

Additional idea: weight limits.  Would require a whole weight system that doesn't currently exist, but makes sense from a "why do forms of travel other than air travel exist?" perspective.

[cjameshuff]

This is Vintage Story. It would obviously have a very high chance of killing you.

[LadyWYT]

24 minutes ago, Helst_navngivet said:

1) it would be very expensive in the long run. It would require frequent repairs after use, like replacing flax in the wings, structural repairs, etc.

This is a very good way to balance such a concept, since the expense of obtaining such a machine means that it's going to be a late game item. Likewise, the maintenance cost means that it's not just a big price the player pays once and then never has to worry about again--if the player wants the power, they have to put in the effort.

 

26 minutes ago, Helst_navngivet said:

2) it would be too fast. This one i was kind of "meh" on, as it could work, however i dont know how fun it would be. The idea was to make a sort of rocket engine, powered by a huge load of blasting powder, that would then accelerate you extremely quickly. You would not be able to turn it off again, only moderating how much coolant and/or oxidiser it would get(see 3) for more info), subsequently making the plane slightly slower/faster. 

I think you're right, in that this one likely won't be very fun to play with since it renders the contraption pretty much unusable. Most likely the only way this option works is if the machine in question is relatively cheap and requires no maintenance, meaning that the player can easily break it during a flying attempt, but can also reasonably expect to replace it when that happens.

 

29 minutes ago, Helst_navngivet said:

3) it would be very hard to fly. things like wings ripping off under high G turns and engine overheating would be something you would have to manage when piloting. The pilot would also have to duck and look through a small glass window in the fuselage after high speed because their eyes are dried out by the wind, which would result in blurry vision. This could probably be negated somewhat by the snow goggle thingys.

While this is definitely a realistic way to handle it...it's also going to be very difficult to code. Some players enjoy difficulty like this, however, it's worth noting that as a general rule, more players seem to gravitate towards easier mechanics rather than harder ones. Ultimately, I think it runs into the same issue as #2, in that it's probably going to be more frustrating than fun to play with.

 

32 minutes ago, Helst_navngivet said:

4) recovery would be a slog. This would mean it would be fun for... well.. fun, however it wouldnt be particularly nice to use over long distances, as you would have to haul it all the way home.

Maybe for a glider, but an airplane it shouldn't be a slog...assuming that the player had set up the proper infrastructure to support that kind of travel, or was otherwise smart about where they chose to land.

 

34 minutes ago, Helst_navngivet said:

any other suggestions for balancing ideas?

I think overall, a simplified flight system is ideal in order to let the player easily make use of the vehicle once they have it. The main key to balancing it, I think, is making the flying machine be quite expensive to obtain, with a reasonable smaller maintenance cost after creation in order to keep it functioning properly. That should give players a good goal to work towards, without overshadowing other means of transport or otherwise rendering them entirely useless. Players still need elk, because that's more efficient for traveling shorter distances or rough terrain, or hauling lots of cargo. Sailboats remain useful because they're cheaper, don't require maintenance, and can easily haul lots of cargo. A plane is excellent for covering long distances and bypassing terrain, but the expense means you'll want to be very careful with it and consider whether or not the time you save using the plane is going to be worth the time you have to spend performing maintenance.

If you want to have a little more nuance regarding flight conditions, I think it's probably better to do some sort of rough weight calculation, as well as account for whether the plane is equipped with high wings, low wings, tricycle gear, taildragger, or floats. A plane that is heavily loaded with fuel and cargo is going to need more space for takeoff and landing; likewise, facing into the wind can shorten the distance required while facing away from the wind can lengthen the distance. A plane with high wings means the player won't be able to see what's above them, but a plane with low wings means the player won't be able to easily see what's underneath them. A tricycle gear is much easier to steer on the ground, since you can see where you're going. A conventional gear(taildragger configuration) makes it harder to see where you're going, but can help protect the propeller from groundstrike and tends to be better suited for rougher landing environments(like unpaved landing strips). Floats mean the plane can land on water(and be reusable after!), but not on land.

Maintenance isn't something that should be overlooked either. Players might get away with ignoring it for a while, but failing to perform regular maintenance(which includes pre-flight checks--those exist for a reason!) can lead to the plane having reduced performance or perhaps even suffering an engine failure...in which case the player is going to need to pick an emergency landing site and do their best...ideally they can reuse the plane afterwards, but that may or may not be possible.

8 minutes ago, Chrondeath said:

running into a bush at high speeds should kill you.

Not necessarily. The pilot and passengers might be fine, but the plane might not be very usable without some time in the shop. 

[Chrondeath]

9 minutes ago, LadyWYT said:

Not necessarily. The pilot and passengers might be fine, but the plane might not be very usable without some time in the shop. 

The idea that, with or without death, a plane crash turns into some kind of wreckage blocks that have to be salvaged, maybe with specialized equipment, to get back the plane or the expensive resources that went into its construction... maybe smoke rises from the wreckage to make it easier to pinpoint... the idea of emergent salvage expeditions amuses me

[Helst_navngivet]

21 hours ago, Chrondeath said:

the idea of emergent salvage expeditions amuses me

That is actually an amazing idea, If i ever come around to making it this is 100% getting implemented.

It would be the most vintage story thing ever, walking through a forest at midnight in pitch black darkness, searching for your friend who crashed thousands of blocks away in the plane with all the rusty gears, losing one guy to a bear and freezing half to death, then finally reaching the plane, then doing the whole thing all over again just to get back to the base.

also larping as a plane crash investigator would be pretty cool.

 

 

Edited Saturday at 08:11 PM by Helst_navngivet

[BurgerDaddy]

I’ll leave this brief unless asked to say more,since the topic was how would you balance planes not, “Do you think planes should be added.”

 

I think the elytra was the coffin that all the nails started going into for TOBG, and I think not adding full flight to this game would be to it’s benefit.

 

edit: oh… you said mod. Yeah do anything you want in a mod, for sure. 

Edited Sunday at 01:01 AM by BurgerDaddy

[Helst_navngivet]

for fully powered flight, i think the best way to go about it would be something like having the plane require extensive amounts of check-ups, tests, etc. like LadyWYT mentioned, if possible, the best way to implement it would be having the individual modules of the plane have a sort of "durability bar", requiring repairs once every [ ____ ] flight hours. For example, lets say you fly 20 hours total in the plane. There is a random chance of something breaking every 20 flight hours (in this example), sort of like the beehive kiln. Lets say the engine is damaged. Now you have to pull it out and repair it. (probably with a special tool or something, to further encourage proper infrastructure)

I think something like that is the best way to balance it without lowering the fun factor too much.

Overall, i think the best way to do it is long term expenses, Be it maintenance, infrastructure or even just rearm/refueling.

 

[Helst_navngivet]

Another other big challenge is making them fit in with the games setting. Especially in my case, because im a sucker for cold war aircraft.

Vintage story does in no way take place during the cold war.

However, I believe that you can make just about any aircraft look like an old scrapbox thats going to fall apart any second if you try hard enough. (theres limits to this, its probably harder to do with an F-35 than with a MiG-9 (in the case of the MiG-9, it already is ))

But still, where do you draw the line on what is "fits inside the game but still feels like a mod" or "skyscraper in victorian era housing area"?

I would say swing wing jet aircraft. Now, I know that sounds... bad. But, I actually think its possible, with some minor changes to how it would function. First of all, this is definitely a jonas tech thing. No questions asked there. How am I ever going to integrate it into the game; no idea. But we do have oils in the game now, so theres that! Surely nothing could go wrong with the olive oil powered hydraulics that have to perform under intense aerodynamic stress because if it doesnt, the plane go kaput.

Each wing would probably require their own blueprints for said swing wing, probably being dropped by something or in a unique structure. The swing wing schematic will not be able to be duplicated. When crafted, it has to be paired up with the swinging part of the wing (the "swing wing") and the "shoulder" (the "fixed wing" section of the wing, can be variable lengths.), then it can finally be a "proper" wing "part", and can be mounted to the plane.

"well then Helst, that sounds like a huge amount of work? why would i ever want to use the swing wing??"

Fear not, for i have an answer!

I am making an aerodynamics system in vintage story. Is it a good idea for a new modder who has never written a line of C#? No. But its not that hard, as it would likely just be a set value in a .json file that determines lift, drag, weight, etc. for each wing, and in the swing wings case, the wings lift and drag is changed when sweeped in different angles. This system also applies to the durability system mentioned in an earlier post, with covering panels flying off or being removed from the aircraft in some way, affecting drag negatively the more your "cover" durability is reduced, subsequently, your drag and lift is also greatly reduced when your lifting surface is introduced to total structural failure.

As for jets engines, this is where all forms of realism is thrown out the window, and by thrown, i mean its not on this planet anymore. Its gone, reduced to ashes through atmospheric heating induced by exiting the atmosphere. 

Jet fuel is made of powdered charcoal dissolved in (most likely) linseed oil. Linseed oil is flammable. Linseed oil also hardens after some time. Our linseed oil will not harden unless i decide there wasnt enough harm done to the fuel system. Fuel pumps will be made from a schematic to the pump things in the resonance archives. (unrelated, but we just went there recently, by the way!)

Fuel pumps will need temporal gears inside them to pump fuel in, similar to how the pseudo-electrical APU will need coal to start literally everything in the plane.

speaking of pseudo-electrical APU's, lets talk about those real quick. As i have chosen NOT to include actual electrical circuits and stuff, I have instead gone for the far superior electro-mechanical route.

"But Helst, doesnt that have electricity in it?"

We dont cut into malinformation around these parts.

Anyways, the apu provides rotational power to the pumps, which in turn provide fuel to the engine, which in turn provides rotational energy to the alternator, which in turn provides electricity temporal magic to the whole craft. The APU needs 6 coal to provide enough power, and is ignited by torch when starting up. It takes 1 real life minute for the APU to start up properly. The APU is able to be ran in "idle mode", which lowers the oxygen flow to the fire, reducing the time the APU takes to start up, with it only taking 5 seconds to start up after 5 minutes of idling. (Works similar to how chickens get less scared by the player for each generation, with -10 seconds for each minute in idle, capping at min. 5 seconds.)

The APU turns off after 6 in-game hours, however it will likely still be hot for a while, ie. have a lower startup time, than if it were to be a cold start.

Jets require schematics, which can be duplicated, albeit this process is quite expensive, requring 2 books and the original schematic to duplicate it, similar to the glider. (except much more expensive)

Jets are constructed from three parts, compression, combustion and exhaust, with the first two being the most important, with the latter only really affecting things like noise and smoke. (and thrust, in the case of the afterburner. (which will also be added btw))

Jets are the second way of propulsion, with propellers being another option, however there will be no piston engines, as i simply dont like them, and turboprops are awesome.

As for aesthetics, i think having the metal-hulled planes be riveted together would help alot, alongside having them be slightly brownish, like cupronickel. having small seams into the plane, while certainly not great for aerodynamics, is great for looks!

Glass will likely be foggy, similar to quartz glass. Canopy glass will also have a peridot variant, just for fun. The plane will smoke ALOT, from the engine, the APU or anywhere else where smoke could reasonably come out. This will be noticable inside the plane too, with the canopy "sodding up" on long trips, having to be cleaned, unless you want to fly (partially) blind.

Anywhere where electronics would be used in real life would have a turquoise glow like the temporal gear, as well as being used for cockpit lighting under night conditions, where it would otherwise not be possible to see and press buttons inside the cockpit. (this would likely be implemented as button inputs, ie. anything other than throttle and stick not registering when sunlight levels are under 1 or whatever method would function best, unless  backlighting is installed.)

TL;DR: jonas aesthetics and temporal magic stuff to not look out of place, swing wing and jets are a thing, Helst_navngivet excuses lack of thinking power with "its jonas magic"
 

Any other ideas regarding making planes not look (completely) out of place?

 

Spoiler

"Jonas, you cant just pull ideas out of your ass and dismiss it as magic, the people are gonna ask questions"

 

Edited Monday at 09:23 AM by Helst_navngivet
reason: minor grammar changes

[Helst_navngivet]

On 6/13/2026 at 12:33 AM, Chrondeath said:

Point is to require infrastructure at the departure and destination sites

I am 100% aboard on this, as i think its what would separate the glider from the plane, and is also the reason i will not under any circumstances add any form of VTOL aircraft to the mod, as that would negate the need for infrastructure, and turn the plane into a big, powered, super glider, much like the elytra in TOBGWSNBNATPOTF.

Previous to discovering VS, me and my friend had another slightly modded minecraft server, most importantly featuring valkyrien skies and warium, these two mods allowing for creation of a variety of aircraft. Planes felt really balanced, as you needed some form of runway to land, which meant most trips were paratrooper-esque dropoffs during supersonic flight, with the pilot returning to base to refuel. Helicopters practically negated that, and with me inventing the gyrodyne, the age of planes were over, and gyrodynes ruled the sky. (Until mod compatability issues perma-locked the server in an infinite loop of crashes, leading to us finding vintage story.)

But yes, absolutely, infrastructure will be required to operate the plane, let alone refuel it and/or repair it.

[CastIronFabric]

There is about three game ideas I have had for decades that I would love to see someone do.

The one below is one of them that is related to your planes idea.

A game like Vintage Story but focuses 100% of progress through the ages from effectively outdoor pit toilets to space travel. As a side note that is basically exactly what happened between 1883 to1973 a 100 year span that is considered to have the most technological advancements in human history.

I fully understand that would be a huge project to do it in a way where the progress is not to fast and each stage is still highly detailed. I also can see how such detail could make all of our brains hurt (I struggle with Stormworks and late game Stationeeers so yeah)

 

Edited Monday at 12:24 PM by CastIronFabric

[Helst_navngivet]

37 minutes ago, CastIronFabric said:

A game like Vintage Story but focuses 100% of progress through the ages from effectively outdoor pit toilets to space travel.

This is actually my big dream project, developing a game pretty much just like that!

[LadyWYT]

6 hours ago, Helst_navngivet said:

Any other ideas regarding making planes not look (completely) out of place?

Leonardo da Vinci's schematics. They don't need to be copied point for point, but they're a great reference for aesthetics.

 

6 hours ago, Helst_navngivet said:

however there will be no piston engines, as i simply dont like them, and turboprops are awesome.

And miss out on appealing to those who love piston engines, as well as miss out on the opportunity to build radial engines around VS's gear motifs?

 

6 hours ago, Helst_navngivet said:

I would say swing wing jet aircraft. Now, I know that sounds... bad. But, I actually think its possible, with some minor changes to how it would function. First of all, this is definitely a jonas tech thing. No questions asked there. How am I ever going to integrate it into the game; no idea. But we do have oils in the game now, so theres that! Surely nothing could go wrong with the olive oil powered hydraulics that have to perform under intense aerodynamic stress because if it doesnt, the plane go kaput.

You might want to take a look at the XF-85 Goblin. Tiny little thing, but I could see it working for something like this. The aesthetic is pretty goofy, and could probably be tweaked easily enough to sort of fit into the game...at least, in terms of a modded standpoint, without looking too out of place. Given that it has a pretty short range, it could also have a pretty balanced trade-off to the more conventional flying machines--it's very fast, but can't go as far or haul as much.

[Helst_navngivet]

55 minutes ago, LadyWYT said:

as well as miss out on the opportunity to build radial engines around VS's gear motifs?

wait, thats actually genius

PISTON ENGINES ARE BACK ON THE MENU!!!!

[Helst_navngivet]

The mod is in development now!!! 

Yipee!!!!

Suggestions are still welcome!!!!!

Edited 22 hours ago by Helst_navngivet