Why logically I believe a Plague Doctor class would make more sense than Merchant, Noble, or Forlorn Knight classes as next new class added.

[Cedric the Silent]

Considering how big the Rot is in game lore I'm surprised we don't already have a "Doctor" class representing the medical staff of the underground. Hopefully, the developers are considering this to be added with the rumored Herbalism system they hinted at.

Realistically, doctors would be essential for checking returning Hunters and Malefactors before they re-enter the underground. It makes perfect sense that among the population near Jonas's Great Machine project would include a few medical staff to treat injuries from people working on the machine and or possible signs of Rot infection that would need to be quarantine from the rest of the population to protect the project.

If the classes are based off of people's roles in this underground society then it makes more sense for a society that is heavily fearful of rot infection to have healers over the other class ideas I've seen thrown around.

I know ideas like the Forlorn Hope Knight, Noble, or Hanseatic Merchant as classes have been big suggestions for next class, but I feel those options have big holes in their logic.

Forlorn Hope Knights got wiped out on the surface fighting besiegers long before Jonas completed his machine, sure we cant rule out completely the idea of one knight either refusing to fight to the death alongside his brothers in arms or did but was the only survivor to make it back.

Hanseatic Merchants all reported to fled by sea on ships to avoid the rot but again we cant rule out the small possibility of a single outlier merchant among them that refused to flee and decided to place his bets on Jonas's idea and maybe becoming a key part of his logistical network to manage supplies for the project.

Nobles they mostly kept to themselves in seclusion, fearing the spreading Rot and the common population of the underground who were more likely just as much of a threat outside of Rot spread risk as many would maybe consider acting out past resentments on said noble classes now that the world was ending. But of course we cant rule out completely the small chance of a rare noble living up to the principle of Noblesse Oblige and choosing to suffer alongside the commoners in toiling away in helping to build The Great Machine.

While outliers among those classes does leave a tiny bit of wiggle room for those classes to exist I still think logically the doctor class makes hundred percent more sense in lore for existing without having to force confabulated reasoning for said class existing compared to the other three mention.

Does anyone have a different take on this topic? Or do you see any holes in my logic regarding the timeline or the underground society? Personally I feel logically Seraph were all people among the population living close enough to Jonas's Great Machine when it was activated and the other three class ideas just feel like a stretch in the logic of any of them being there at that time but if I'm wrong please inform me of anything I may have missed. 

[Rainbow Fresh]

Once herbalism rolls around, some sort of doctor/herbalist class that gets related buffs certainly makes sense; from a gameplay perspective aswell as your lore explanation.

That said, I don't know enough about the other "commonly suggested" classes you mentioned so I can only vaguely judge them:

Forlorn Hope Knight... Doesn't sound too off. Then again, I only went to the resonance archives so I don't know too much about where exactly the Seraph comes from and what happened to humanity. If you say the shiny knights got wiped out in conflict long before the Jonas machine that created the Seraph then maybe - but also, if it was intentional to create Seraphs that shall outlast the calamity then why wouldn't they decidedly keep and send one of their strongest warriors? We have the blackguard class, why not have the counterpart? That said, I don't know what would be the difference between the two so from a gameplay perspective there isn't much need for a Forlorn Hope one. Also retains Forlorn Hope gear as a rarity because logically the corresponding player class would need to be able to craft atleast, like, the Estoc much like the Blackguard class can craft the shortsword.

Noble. Following the same logic, even moreso than with the Forlorn Hope one, if the Seraph was an intended "outlast the calamity" invention you can bet'chu ass some high and mighty nobles would take first dibs on the right to become immortal and outlive the plebians, then claim the new lands afterwards. So it makes sense, lore-wise, for such a class to exist. Gameplay-wise, however, once again I see little use for that class because... What could a noble bring to the table? Being useless for any work? A tailor but for specific fancy, posh jewelery pieces?

And finally the merchant. I don't know where exactly the notion of specifically "hanseatic" merchants comes from, but seeing as the only non-story NPCs we have in game are the traders all over the place; having a merchant class just makes sense. Lore-wise (cause these still exist even without being Seraph - capitalism always survives) and gameplay-wise (cause buffs for trading would be a very nice, niche concept).

 

That being said, take all of this with a grain of salt as I never have nor will play as anything but commoner because I hate having what feels like notable debuffs in turn for what seems like neglectable buffs for things I don't know needs buffing.

[Cedric the Silent]

15 minutes ago, Rainbow Fresh said:

I don't know where exactly the notion of specifically "hanseatic" merchants comes from, but seeing as the only non-story NPCs we have in game are the traders all over the place; having a merchant class just makes sense.

Hanseatic get mention more than once in the lore in game being around during the time of the Rot but then again you do raise a good point merchant class doesn't necessarily would refer to them over some underground society type of merchant but I do question giving the context of the environment of that place during those dark days just how much of a free market was allowed when rationing was most likely big and I always assumed by how desperate  everything sounded in the bits of lore I always guessed they eventually gave Jonas arguably too much power over resources for his last ditched effort of salvation for humanity with his grand plan of building his machine to stop the Rot.

I remember the lore describing a lot of the underground population working themselves to the bone and even offering their little limited supplies to Jonas as he had become somewhat of a symbol of their last hope for humanity.

This would increase the likeliness of Jonas being forced into something like a unofficial dictator role in regards to needing to preserve as much supplies as possible in order to make the project succeed even go so far to have ruthless blackguards be willing to crush angry mobs if needed as it was implied in lore if I remember correctly.

This makes me wonder just how likely for a merchant to succeed easily in such society but then again I guess I cant completely rule out Jonas having personal sanction merchant class who played ball with helping him keep the project going or some type of smuggler black market merchants in that underground society working against his interest.

Also, I do wonder if the often sighted trader NPC's are possible descendants of the Hanseatic merchants who fled by ship who maybe found themselves thrown once again back on land after Jonas's Machine scrambled the world up, that would be a interesting theory.

[Rainbow Fresh]

4 minutes ago, Cedric the Silent said:

but I do question giving the context of the environment of that place during those dark days just how much of a free market was allowed when rationing was most likely big and I always assumed by how desperate  everything sounded in the bits of lore I always guessed they eventually gave Jonas arguably too much power over resources for his last ditched effort of salvation for humanity with his grand plan of building his machine to stop the Rot.

The power of capitalism cannot be contained. I can quite easily imagine some smart fella underground exploiting the growing insanity and whatnot to make dubious "trades" to further their own wealth even in a heavily rationed society. "I can do X chore for you but you owe me half of your next ration" kinda deal. Would also give more notion to such a player class than "better trades" considering their shady sub-nature. Maybe a trader x thief kinda type. Survive by any means necessary, and their smarts were their weapon.

[Cedric the Silent]

6 minutes ago, Rainbow Fresh said:

I can do X chore for you but you owe me half of your next ration" kinda deal. Would also give more notion to such a player class than "better trades" considering their shady sub-nature. Maybe a trader x thief kinda type. Survive by any means necessary, and their smarts were their weapon.

Now I would be interested in what dialogue Tobias would have for a player who chose that type of class when telling the player about their past. When its a Malefactor class player Tobias wasn't afraid to lay bare to the player that they were a condemned criminal whether they were rightfully convicted for a real crime or it was a mistake is left up in the air for player interpretation.

Though I would wonder what his view on a shady merchant would be? Maybe see it as a unpleasant but necessary evil for society to keep functioning even during those dark times but even before the Rot merchants have always had a stigma to them by non merchants during medieval eras typically seeing little honor in people who primarily chased profit in all things but of course they all in the end still buy from them even if they have their noses turn up in disgust while doing said business with said merchant.

Tobias seemed to be mostly practical type of guy I'm sure he would be less likely to not care for a such harsh view on someone useful as a merchant, after all Jonas's Great Machine project needs a lot of materials for its construction so he may praise anyone that could help with that.

[MKMoose]

4 hours ago, Cedric the Silent said:

Forlorn Hope Knights got wiped out on the surface fighting besiegers long before Jonas completed his machine, sure we cant rule out completely the idea of one knight either refusing to fight to the death alongside his brothers in arms or did but was the only survivor to make it back.

I'm not sure that this is supported in lore. Example flavor text from item descriptions:

Spoiler

"The order met its ruin with all the others. Or perhaps they found their salvation?" - Forlorn Hope breastplate (damaged)

"The knights put their faith in the blessed device to deliver them from imminent death." - Forlorn Hope pants

"The last vassals of a dwindling era." - Forlorn Hope shoes

 

4 hours ago, Rainbow Fresh said:

We have the blackguard class, why not have the counterpart? That said, I don't know what would be the difference between the two so from a gameplay perspective there isn't much need for a Forlorn Hope one.

There is quite a lot of interesting things that could be done with Forlorn Hope which may tread on completely new gameplay territory. Example flavor text from item descriptions:

Spoiler

"Imbued with alchemical symbols. They were both scholars and warriors." - Forlorn Hope tunic

"Fastened with charms and trinkets to guide them." - Forlorn Hope belt

"They sought to enwreathe themselves in the prima materia and wield it directly. Much of their efforts were directed towards such a feat." - Forlorn Hope talisman

 

Overall, my thought on these classes is that:

• A doctor is extremely straightforward to support from a lore perspective, and it's a safe yet interesting pick. But, it can be tricky to implement in a satisfying way - herbalism, brewing and possibly some kind of alchemy could offer a lot of options, though we don't really know anything about how that will look like as of now, and at this rate we may not even get any of it in 1.23. I would find it most interesting if the devs decided to go to the lengths of implementing diseases (possibly actual Rot) and letting the doctor more efficiently delay or treat their effects. I do also think that it has to focus on more than just healing - poisons and stimulants of some sort could be interesting.
• A Forlorn Hope knight feels to me like it aims the wrong way - how about a servant, scholar or alchemist? Regardless of which way it goes, I think it would be worthwhile to make this class focus on the more scholarly and religious side, allowing some less immediately explicable interaction with temporal mechanics and the rust world through improvised trinkets and alchemical symbols or tinctures or other adjacent means, possibly ritualized in some way. Maybe even try going in the direction of something like astrology, geomancy, divination?.
• A noble may be somewhat questionable from a gameplay perspective, but it could be very interesting from a lore perspective. If I were to choose a gameplay direction to go for with a noble, then I would consider giving them some benefits to exploring ruins and reading books, like special recipes, revealing locations of other ruins, biomes or resources, and exclusive lore. A noble might not be the most adept at survival, but in the Middle Ages there was a pretty huge education gap between social classes, so it seems quite adequate to show that education gap through gameplay. On a multiplayer server, the noble could then end up being a sort of guide, unironically.
• A merchant seems pretty simplistic, and switching it to something more like a smuggler could make them stand out more, with a stronger lore hook and easier integration of mechanics that don't just boil down to better trading. Similar to the doctor, though, I feel like it's not really possible to implement a good merchant or smuggler without having some more mechanics in place, and that would likely require a pretty large overhaul of trading. I think it's also important to keep in mind that a merchant or smuggler should ideally be implemented in such a way that they don't just end up as the dedicated delivery guy on servers, always sent to buy and sell stuff because they have better prices.

I think each of these both makes quite a lot of sense in lore and could provide a pretty unique gameplay focus, and are overall arguably the strongest candidates for new classes for the vanilla game.

 

4 hours ago, Rainbow Fresh said:

That being said, take all of this with a grain of salt as I never have nor will play as anything but commoner because I hate having what feels like notable debuffs in turn for what seems like neglectable buffs for things I don't know needs buffing.

Yeah, largely the same here. The only class I've ever played besides the commoner is the tailor, because it seemed fun as a sort of challenge class which can also provide cool items for other people on the server. Though there is the caveat that reducing debuffs could contribute to classes feeling more homogenous.

Arguably the best way to make classes more unique is to introduce meaningful differences into their gameplay that don't devolve to buffs and debuffs and instead change how these classes are played on a fundamental level, though that can be very difficult and time-consuming to implement in a satisfying way, especially with the large amount of content which is already in the game. Mostly spitballing here, just to show the kind of ideas that could be considered, on the example of the malefactor:

• make them less skilled at using the bow and further debuff their melee combat, but give them more options for slings and sling projectiles (and maybe some other unique weapon), and possibly make slings a skill-based weapon that requires practice and timing; likely also specifically buff the malefactor's efficacy with these weapons to keep them from being excessively good when used by other classes,
• outright prevent malefactors from doing certain things like perhaps weaving and sewing (or at least make them very inefficient), but also add some special forageable or lootable resources (from the wild, from ruins, or from rust monsters) that only they can use (or at least they can use massively more efficiently) as replacement for the resources like linen which they would be unable to obtain normally - it could be borderline anything, like stinging nettle fibers as replacement for flax in some recipes, drifter skin as replacement for paper, some moss or spiderwebs as healing items,
• make malefactors spawn directly in ruins on their first spawn,
• in some way reduce the reliability or efficiency of obtaining metal or using metal tools for malefactors, but add more scrap tools and enhance their ability to find and craft these tools or restore ruined clutter.

Changes like these which introduce large differences between the way that different classes are played could greatly increase the game's replayability and variety in ways that simple buffs and debuffs can't really achieve, and give players more distinct reasons to try different classes - a much stronger fantasy and a tweaked progression system, not just "they're better at this thing and worse at that thing".

Edited Tuesday at 11:36 AM by MKMoose

[ifoz]

4 hours ago, Cedric the Silent said:

Also, I do wonder if the often sighted trader NPC's are possible descendants of the Hanseatic merchants who fled by ship who maybe found themselves thrown once again back on land after Jonas's Machine scrambled the world up, that would be a interesting theory.
 

Spoiler

It's implied they are, yeah. They fly "Hansa" banners outside their dwellings, and when Hansa banners were first revealed Saraty also posted the text "symbols transcend generations" along with them.
The traders also discuss the "great arks", which to me seems to be a folklore-ification of the real Hansa ships (arks) that sailed their ancestors away from the Rot.

I also think a doctor class could be fitting, but I do also wonder if some medical gameplay could be integrated into the Tailor.
I say this because the tailor blouse has faint pink staining, consistent with other bloodstains in the game (barber surgeon apron, Nadiyan barber gloves), along with the description of "artisans provided what assistance they could and plied their craft when able". Together to me this kind of implies the Tailor might have also been stitching up the wounded in emergency situations.

I think a herbalist class could also potentially be integrated into Malefactor, given they already have the "forager" trait.

Forlorn Hope knight I've always been unsure about, given that the Blackguard already covers the melee/fighter playstyle. I think the only way they could offer unique gameplay would be if they had more to do with alchemy or the sciences.
The Forlorn Hope were also scholars, so they might usurp the role of a Noble class, unless the Noble was explicitly something of a challenge class.

Edited Tuesday at 11:58 AM by ifoz

[ifoz]

1 hour ago, MKMoose said:

make them less skilled at using the bow and further debuff their melee combat, but give them more options for slings and sling projectiles (and maybe some other unique weapon), and possibly make slings a skill-based weapon that requires practice and timing; likely also specifically buff the malefactor's efficacy with these weapons to keep them from being excessively good when used by other classes,

I think a proper stealth system could help Malefactor out a lot, and incentivise their 'scout/stealth' playstyle by giving players options to avoid/sneak around combat encounters.

 

1 hour ago, MKMoose said:

outright prevent malefactors from doing certain things like perhaps weaving and sewing (or at least make them very inefficient), but also add some special forageable or lootable resources (from the wild, from ruins, or from rust monsters) that only they can use (or at least they can use massively more efficiently) as replacement for the resources like linen which they would be unable to obtain normally - it could be borderline anything, like stinging nettle fibers as replacement for flax in some recipes, drifter skin as replacement for paper, some moss or spiderwebs as healing items,

I'm unsure about this one, as I think it leans a bit too far into restricting gameplay considering just how important flax is in this game. Windmills, armour, repairing clothes, sailboats.
The Malefactor also seems like one of the classes with the most theoretical survival skills - realistically the tailor might be better at weaving fancy things, but the Malefactor's whole shtick is supposed to be that they're an adapt improvisor, capable of working with what they've got. 
If anything, the class that makes the most sense to get crafting debuffs would be the Blackguard, since they are described as "not having the talent for delicate work".

I think it'd be nice if this was the aspect leaned into further for the Malefactor - alternate recipes for certain items, and maybe even a few outright new ones. I like your ideas of them being able to use nettle for certain flax recipes, as well as moss for early healing. I had an idea a while back that the Malefactor should be able to make upgraded (bronze-tier) versions of the current vanilla metal scrap weapons, that are copper tier, which would also tie into their ruin-hunting traits. You mentioned adding more scrap tools for them to use, and I think that'd bring some unique options to the table.

Edited Tuesday at 12:08 PM by ifoz

[HalfAxd]

7 hours ago, Rainbow Fresh said:

That being said, take all of this with a grain of salt as I never have nor will play as anything but commoner because I hate having what feels like notable debuffs in turn for what seems like neglectable buffs for things I don't know needs buffing.

Agreed!   I find classes to be a silly trope shoe horned into VS for questionable value.

[Cedric the Silent]

Personally I like classes because they give role play reasons for players and also give each player their own society role in multiplayer servers as each class can contribute, so to me the concept isn't bad or doesn't fit the game its just not perfectly implemented in the game yet.

[Rainbow Fresh]

Classes aren't bad per-se. And I can certainly see their merit in Multiplayer. But as a lonely single player, them class-locked recipes get yeeted and Commoner it is.

[Cedric the Silent]

4 hours ago, MKMoose said:

I'm not sure that this is supported in lore. Example flavor text from item descriptions:

  Reveal hidden contents

Good point, guess I just assumed they more likely all died out defending against besieging hordes but maybe some were lucky enough to survive long enough to see Jonas complete his machine.

[Cedric the Silent]

Personally when playing single player I typically just turn off class specific recipes but I still pick a class, I think I only picked commoner the first time I played the game most games I lean Blackguard as first pick, Hunter second favorite, third Malefactor, fourth Clock Maker, and I don't think I ever played Tailor class though.

Edited Tuesday at 03:30 PM by Cedric the Silent
spelling mistake

[LadyWYT]

10 hours ago, Cedric the Silent said:

Forlorn Hope Knights got wiped out on the surface fighting besiegers long before Jonas completed his machine, sure we cant rule out completely the idea of one knight either refusing to fight to the death alongside his brothers in arms or did but was the only survivor to make it back.

As far as we know, the Forlorn Hope is a dead faction that was wiped out in the Old World's last moments. However, there's always the chance there could have been a handful of survivors, or the more likely scenario that someone else chose to resurrect the order later, similar to the Knights of the Nine quest from Oblivion.

 

10 hours ago, Cedric the Silent said:

Hanseatic Merchants all reported to fled by sea on ships to avoid the rot but again we cant rule out the small possibility of a single outlier merchant among them that refused to flee and decided to place his bets on Jonas's idea and maybe becoming a key part of his logistical network to manage supplies for the project.

The Hanseatic merchants are the traders the player encounters in the world in the present day. Personally, I don't really think a trader class fits that well, since it overlaps with Tailor(stated to have refined manners suited for city life) and Commoner(the catch-all class for most of the common medieval professions).

 

10 hours ago, Cedric the Silent said:

Nobles they mostly kept to themselves in seclusion, fearing the spreading Rot and the common population of the underground who were more likely just as much of a threat outside of Rot spread risk as many would maybe consider acting out past resentments on said noble classes now that the world was ending. But of course we cant rule out completely the small chance of a rare noble living up to the principle of Noblesse Oblige and choosing to suffer alongside the commoners in toiling away in helping to build The Great Machine.

Realistically, most nobles that were aligned with Jonas likely perished among the ranks of the Forlorn Hope...at least, the male ones. Most of the elite fighters of medieval times tended to come from the nobility, since it was the nobles who actually had the time to train and the resources to afford proper equipment.

That being said, there could have easily be several that were more useful in scholarly roles, and it would make for a rather interesting class to play since the noble would essentially be a fish out of water. The civilized world is long gone, leaving the nobles to fend for themselves, and the new world that emerged perhaps doesn't hold the concept of nobility in the highest regard. 

Overall, I think a Plague Doctor or some other medical class would be a good addition, as well as a Noble class. The Doctor isn't exactly a common profession since it does require some specialized knowledge and skills(even for medieval times) and has mechanics that would stand out from existing classes. Mechanically, the Noble would probably have some overlap with existing classes, however, the main thing that makes this class interesting is the lore that goes with it and how NPCs react to such a character. Either way you cut it though, the game needs better medical gameplay(injuries, illness, medicines, etc) before a Doctor could really exist, and there needs to be a more fleshed out reputation system for the Noble to function well as a class.

6 hours ago, MKMoose said:

outright prevent malefactors from doing certain things like perhaps weaving and sewing (or at least make them very inefficient), but also add some special forageable or lootable resources (from the wild, from ruins, or from rust monsters) that only they can use (or at least they can use massively more efficiently) as replacement for the resources like linen which they would be unable to obtain normally - it could be borderline anything, like stinging nettle fibers as replacement for flax in some recipes, drifter skin as replacement for paper, some moss or spiderwebs as healing items

I don't think this is a good idea for any class, not just Malefactor. The game itself is balanced primarily around singleplayer, and thus every class needs to be able to both complete the main story and enjoy all the main content that the game has to offer, without needing to resort to turning off class-exclusive recipes or joining a multiplayer server. Weaving and sewing, while not proper gameplay loops yet, seem intended to be major parts of the game that the player is meant to interact with, perhaps weaving their very own rugs and tapestries and having more control over clothing design itself. At least, I would be very surprised if that's not the intent, given how excited Saraty in particular gets in the interviews when discussing such mechanics, as well as given the changes that have been proposed to armor crafting for 1.23.

7 hours ago, MKMoose said:

in some way reduce the reliability or efficiency of obtaining metal or using metal tools for malefactors, but add more scrap tools and enhance their ability to find and craft these tools or restore ruined clutter.

Similar issues to the above--there's not really a good reason while malefactors(or other classes, for that matter) would fumble around using tools made of metal, but not have any issues using the same tools constructed of non-metal parts/scrap. They might struggle because they aren't as strong or have an aversion to violence, sure, but those are qualities that will apply to a situation and won't be based purely on choice of weapon/tool. I would also note that it's counter-productive to the general game design, in that players are intended to actively improve their tools by seeking out better metals and creating better alloys. 

The better choice to make here, I think, if the goal is to encourage using scrap weapons, is perhaps allow such things made by a malefactor to be a bit more durable, or otherwise make the materials a little easier to find so that classes in general can access them more easily in the early part of the game, where such things are most valuable. Currently, scrap weapons aren't particularly useful, because caves are dangerous to explore without proper equipment, and dungeons are too rare to be a reliable source of scrap. Generally by the time the player has acquired scrap to make weapons, they've already got access to copper and bronze, which are much better materials to work with.

5 hours ago, ifoz said:

Forlorn Hope knight I've always been unsure about, given that the Blackguard already covers the melee/fighter playstyle. I think the only way they could offer unique gameplay would be if they had more to do with alchemy or the sciences.

Not necessarily. I could see them being similar to Blackguard, but perhaps having a damage bonus against boss/mini-boss enemies specifically, and otherwise do normal damage. It plays into some of the typical knight tropes, as well as perhaps puts the player in the strange role of actively seeking out some of the worst sorts of trouble rather than avoiding it.

 

 

[Cedric the Silent]

7 minutes ago, LadyWYT said:

Currently, scrap weapons aren't particularly useful, because caves are dangerous to explore without proper equipment, and dungeons are too rare to be a reliable source of scrap

Could make certain enemies drop scrap as loot or allow us to dismantle some of the useless clutter items and maybe give even more uses for scrap like the scrap armor and tools from the TinkerTailor- Scrapworks mod.

[LadyWYT]

Incidentally, if we want to make the class gameplay a little more distinct, I don't think it's necessary to restrict them to certain weapons or render them almost useless for certain crafting loops. One overlooked possibility is disease/injury resistance. 

Malefactors, for example, might be incredibly resistant to some of the more serious illnesses, like malaria or cholera, since they're used to being in some rather disgusting scenarios thanks to their past. That makes them a more valuable choice even into the late game, since some illness could be quite difficult to cure and/or pose a significant penalty if the player has it. Blackguards could be more resistant to certain physical injuries(like broken bones) thanks to having a stronger constitution than other classes, but being stronger means they need more food...which means that any injury/illness that boosts hunger rate will hit them harder than it will other classes. Classes like Clockmaker and Tailor might be more susceptible to certain illnesses or injuries, since they don't have have rugged physiques or sturdy immune systems.

This idea also lends more value to a devoted Doctor class, since treatments administered by Doctors could be more effective at dealing with illness and injuries. This makes Doctor a strong support class for multiplayer, as well as a solid choice for singleplayer in the event the player isn't too keen on being held back by disease and injuries.

5 minutes ago, Cedric the Silent said:

Could make certain enemies drop scrap as loot or allow us to dismantle some of the useless clutter items and maybe give even more uses for scrap like the scrap armor and tools from the TinkerTailor- Scrapworks mod.

That too, or allow them to drop from cracked vessels. That would be more useful than the rocks, stone tools, and some of the other random bits that can drop from those things.

[Cedric the Silent]

I would add different types of scraps that the Malefactor have the ability to turn into things like a scrap saw which would have terrible durability compared to all other metal tools like on the level of just a few uses before it breaks giving a bit of scraps back. This would be game changer because if you have good loot RNG from ruins early game and was playing Malefactor class or with no class specific recipes setting off this could give a player a chance to have a working saw before they smith their first metal tools which means if your luck is good you can have planks even earlier than normally.

Now it may not be too hard to get metal in base game right now but it could still save one or two in game days if they get lucky with their ruin drop and if you playing with mods like IndustrialStory which makes smith metal more complex then this could be a life savoir and if they play with mods like CollapseStory mod like me then having early saw could be so useful even if said scrap saw only had enough durability for cutting about 6 logs that would be enough to make a difference for a quick gain of planks and and support beams.

Edited Tuesday at 06:43 PM by Cedric the Silent
spelling mistakes

[ifoz]

5 hours ago, LadyWYT said:

Malefactors, for example, might be incredibly resistant to some of the more serious illnesses, like malaria or cholera, since they're used to being in some rather disgusting scenarios thanks to their past. That makes them a more valuable choice even into the late game, since some illness could be quite difficult to cure and/or pose a significant penalty if the player has it.

I also wonder if Malefactors could hold off longer before feeling the effects of starvation (assuming hunger and starvation are to become status effects rather than a flat HP drain when the bar hits zero).
Given their expeditions to the surface and criminal background, it'd make sense if they were more used to going without food for a longer time as opposed to a class like the Clockmaker or Tailor who worked a trade.

 

5 hours ago, LadyWYT said:

That too, or allow them to drop from cracked vessels. That would be more useful than the rocks, stone tools, and some of the other random bits that can drop from those things.

I always thought it was weird the vessels dropped stone tools - back when I was a new player I thought this implied the ruins were left behind by some other stone/copper age civilisation, but I soon learnt that no, most ruins are supposed to come from the old world. In a society that had Jonastech and steel production, I doubt anyone would really be using stone or copper tools unless absolutely necessary.

Personally I think your idea of them dropping scraps could make more sense, or even dropping rusted/corroded tools.
It'd make more sense for tool vessels to drop things like heavily corroded knives and axes that are just as functionally bad as stone, but aesthetically different and more thematically fitting.

[LadyWYT]

31 minutes ago, ifoz said:

I always thought it was weird the vessels dropped stone tools - back when I was a new player I thought this implied the ruins were left behind by some other stone/copper age civilisation, but I soon learnt that no, most ruins are supposed to come from the old world. In a society that had Jonastech and steel production, I doubt anyone would really be using stone or copper tools unless absolutely necessary.

I think it's mostly for gameplay balance. If copper and bronze tools were more common among the drops, players would probably stop bothering with the normal progression and instead rely on vessel RNG to get their first tools.

For a lore explanation about why there's not more metal tools to find, I'd wager that most of the metal tools have already been scavenged and put to use elsewhere. Which would make sense, since mining doesn't exactly seem to be a popular profession anymore and a lot of Old World knowledge was lost. I also figure that some of the ruins aren't from the Old World, but rather the ruins of some of the unlucky settlements that sprung up after, which would also explain the distinct lack of advanced technology.

37 minutes ago, ifoz said:

Personally I think your idea of them dropping scraps could make more sense, or even dropping rusted/corroded tools.
It'd make more sense for tool vessels to drop things like heavily corroded knives and axes that are just as functionally bad as stone, but aesthetically different and more thematically fitting.

Which is pretty much why I figure it'd make sense for metal scraps to be included in the loot. Perhaps as uncommon loot, but loot nonetheless.  Metal tools and other pieces of metal might be very valuable in terms of salvage, but if it's all corroded or rusty then it's probably not worth the effort and risk of hauling it out of the ruin and transporting it to someone who's willing to buy it.

 

41 minutes ago, ifoz said:

I also wonder if Malefactors could hold off longer before feeling the effects of starvation (assuming hunger and starvation are to become status effects rather than a flat HP drain when the bar hits zero).
Given their expeditions to the surface and criminal background, it'd make sense if they were more used to going without food for a longer time as opposed to a class like the Clockmaker or Tailor who worked a trade.

Maybe, but one could argue that all the classes were kind of in the same boat regarding the whole food situation. Ironically, malefactors may have had better access to food in some cases, since they could still salvage whatever happened to be left on the surface. Not that the underground didn't have supplies, but not much lives or grows underground, and the food that is stored in those refuges is going to be heavily guarded. That's not to say that malefactors were eating like kings either, but it's easier to skim a little from whatever food you scrounged up on the surface than it is to fight the Blackguards for it underground.

[Cedric the Silent]

I hope in the future the developers will give even more context about the conditions of that underground society built around helping Jonas build his machine because I would like more story notes revealing the logistics of how they manage to maintain themselves long enough to succeed because that alone can be a compelling tale of tragedies, hardship and a good window into the human condition when forced in desperation on the smallest glimmer of hope of salvation. I always question if they had any type of plant like a type of moss or fungus that could be grown underground because it seems hard to imagine them totally surviving on what original supplies they brought in on their original exodus to the underground and how much food could their Hunters logically manage to bring back. It also doesn't help we don't got a good grasp on the exact number of mouths they had to feed in their population or how long did it took until Jonas's machine was complete, was it years or was it in decades?

If any of that info was in the lore and I missed it please let me know.

[Chuckerton]

6 hours ago, LadyWYT said:

Incidentally, if we want to make the class gameplay a little more distinct, I don't think it's necessary to restrict them to certain weapons or render them almost useless for certain crafting loops. One overlooked possibility is disease/injury resistance. 

....

This idea also lends more value to a devoted Doctor class, since treatments administered by Doctors could be more effective at dealing with illness and injuries. This makes Doctor a strong support class for multiplayer, as well as a solid choice for singleplayer in the event the player isn't too keen on being held back by disease and injuries.

 

I definitely think this is the way to go for classes. Making certain classes the ONLY way to make certain items only incentivizes me to just not use class exclusive recipes and pick commoner. Having strengths and weaknesses statwise is much better. 

Class exclusive recipes only make sense on servers that have enough people to fill out all the classes. 

Edited Wednesday at 12:43 AM by Chuckerton

[Cedric the Silent]

Personally I like the exclusive recipes on multiplayer servers because it forces some form of cooperation and a sense of civilization building I feel Vintage Story does better at player made civilizations scenarios than it does its rival block games and I hope in the future the developers will add more game mechanics centered around this idea without us needing to heavily mod the game for such features.

I would also like more new classes that would fill out more roles but of course said classes would have to also fit in the lore of what Jonas's underground society would have logically have.

[LadyWYT]

18 minutes ago, Cedric the Silent said:

I hope in the future the developers will give even more context about the conditions of that underground society built around helping Jonas build his machine because I would like more story notes revealing the logistics of how they manage to maintain themselves long enough to succeed because that alone can be a compelling tale of tragedies, hardship and a good window into the human condition when forced in desperation on the smallest glimmer of hope of salvation.

Honestly, I hope it remains somewhat vague. I wouldn't mind seeing a few more details, of course, but part of what makes that section of lore interesting is that much of it is shrouded in mystery and left up to the player's imagination. 

 

20 minutes ago, Cedric the Silent said:

I always question if they had any type of plant like a type of moss or fungus that could be grown underground because it seems hard to imagine them totally surviving on what original supplies they brought in on their original exodus to the underground and how much food could their Hunters logically manage to bring back. It also doesn't help we don't got a good grasp on the exact number of mouths they had to feed in their population or how long did it took until Jonas's machine was complete, was it years or was it in decades?

It's possible, but my general theory on it is that the foodstuffs they had access to was mostly whatever they managed to bring underground with them, with some of the more fortunate bunkers perhaps having decent areas on the surface to contain hunting/foraging/farming some food. As for how many mouths they had to feed...I get the impression that it was perhaps the minority of population that sided with Jonas and followed him and his friends into the underground. 

Regarding how long it took to complete the Machine, and how long that part of the population remained underground...probably not more than a couple of years, at most, though I would guess more a few months. The main reason I say that is the Rot was working rather fast on its victims, and there's only so long that people and animals can effectively work without enough food, rest, and water. The population also didn't really have much else to work on but the Machine, and given that that was the only way they knew of to ensure their survival...well, it's a pretty good motivator for working quickly.

24 minutes ago, Chuckerton said:

Class exclusive recipes only make sense on servers that have enough people to fill out all the classes. 

Eh, not really. They make perfect sense as flavor items, and that's mainly why the class-exclusive items exist. Fun to use, slightly better in some ways than their more common counterparts, but not absolutely critical to playing the game.

[Cedric the Silent]

1 hour ago, LadyWYT said:

perhaps the minority of population that sided with Jonas and followed him and his friends into the underground.

We also cant forget some of the implied lore of the Blackguards included crushing riots so even among his group conflict likely happen due to the desperation which may have hurt Jonas personally to give such order, imagine the type of guilt would a man like that who having all of humanity counting on his machine to fight the Rot which may or may not have came into existence because of his meddling in otherworldly technology,

I can imagine him being pushed into hardening his heart to give orders to fight back against any rioters who threaten his Great Machine project and thus this would also cut down some of the number of mouths to feed after each failed uprisings or riots.

[ifoz]

1 hour ago, LadyWYT said:

As for how many mouths they had to feed...I get the impression that it was perhaps the minority of population that sided with Jonas and followed him and his friends into the underground. 

Even if so, I'd imagine it would still have been a lot - the merchant set description makes mention that the Hansa had to charter a massive amount of goods and refugees. Given that the Commoner is also described as a refugee, I think the "goods and refugees" described were those going toward the Grand Machine, or at least the large shelter civilisation that developed around it.

In regards to food underground, it does seem to have been incredibly valuable. The most abundant resource found in the fortified "vaults" of the dynamic dungeons is rot, which would have once been foodstuffs. There is also some evidence of attempted farming underground, a small handful of ruins have areas with fences, troughs, aged hay and animal bones.

Edited Wednesday at 02:41 AM by ifoz