Bosses should have predictable pattern to create more satisfying fight/resonance archives critique

[VintageStory enjoyer]

At the end of resonance archives, there is first boss. And even tho the boss looks great and has thick vibes, more than fun, the boss fight felt annoying to me. Attacks are interesting and have fatality to them, but the thing is, to defeat him, i have to be hidden behind pillar with shield, shoot all my arrows on him, go to him to take arrows back, and repeat. Die 5 times, i play with keep inventory on death, and repeat the same thing. This is not how you do boss fights. Some people might say, you have weak gear. But i think it should be more about skill and learning about patterns of the boss than purely gear. Think terraria. Some people can defeat fishron with early hardmode gear. Because its about skill and about the learning the patterns of the boss so you can dodge his attacks. I think the boss design should be improved on... On the other hand, it looks great, resonance archives are well done(vibe wise), it just needs some imrpovements... Puzzle in engineering room and with that pump and finding mines and so on - its too hard. Not in fun way. Its like those early puzzles in silent hill. You cannot find your way on your own. Story location design needs some tweaks. Not in dramatic way,but devs should find a way to lead the player little more. Last thing that isnt good is that when you go down the ladder in kitchen, you drop in pool of water- torch dies... Player doesnt know he needs to have multiple torches. Mines- enemies too hard, you need to sprint instead of looking around. To put it all together, i had to use creative mod very often- to give myself a torch for example. It needs some improvements...

[Rainbow Fresh]

The boss - could possibly be changed. I haven't fought him yet because the rewards at the end, according to the wiki, weren't enticing enough to fight the boss that, also according to the wiki, is a stationary "Have you brought enough healing" kinda deal. Sounds painful, boring and maybe I come back with Steel gear one day just for the completion.

The archives and puzzles though - sorry, I mean no offense with this, but that is truly just a git gut moment. Let me dissect this.

The puzzles are too hard. Because there is... no guidance? It's a puzzle. The point of a puzzle is to figure out the solution. Hints are there. There are lore book notes that hint at the existence and location of all the devices needed to complete it and just exploring everything one after another will - assuming you walk around with a light source and your eyes open - lead you to find things anyway. Do you possible need to wildly backtrack and check everything twice if you do not remember which doors are locked and cannot figure out the connection between locked door A and contraption B that you just fixed that did "something"? Possibly. But again, it's a puzzle. Which is mighty better than just a straight corridor with 100 Tier 4 mobs for "challenge".

The mines are too hard. I went there with a copper spear (Combat Overhaul which means it's a really shit choice for close quarters combat) iirc and with some kiting and healing it wasn't too bad.

The drop in the kitchen is into a pool of water which extinguishes your torch. ...lanterns do exist. And so should, in my personal opinion, everyone always run around with either a firestarter or the means to craft one, *especially* when going on a dedicated adventure in a big ass story location dungeon. It is also not a drop, it is a ladder. You can safely descent far enough that your torch's light illuminates the water below for you to anticipate "I'll get wet and my torch might go out".

Edited August 3 by Rainbow Fresh

[VintageStory enjoyer]

32 minutes ago, Rainbow Fresh said:

The boss - could possibly be changed. I haven't fought him yet because the rewards at the end, according to the wiki, weren't enticing enough to fight the boss that, also according to the wiki, is a stationary "Have you brought enough healing" kinda deal. Sounds painful, boring and maybe I come back with Steel gear one day just for the completion.

The archives and puzzles though - sorry, I mean no offense with this, but that is truly just a git gut moment. Let me dissect this.

The puzzles are too hard. Because there is... no guidance? It's a puzzle. The point of a puzzle is to figure out the solution. Hints are there. There are lore book notes that hint at the existence and location of all the devices needed to complete it and just exploring everything one after another will - assuming you walk around with a light source and your eyes open - lead you to find things anyway. Do you possible need to wildly backtrack and check everything twice if you do not remember which doors are locked and cannot figure out the connection between locked door A and contraption B that you just fixed that did "something"? Possibly. But again, it's a puzzle. Which is mighty better than just a straight corridor with 100 Tier 4 mobs for "challenge".

The mines are too hard. I went there with a copper spear (Combat Overhaul which means it's a really shit choice for close quarters combat) iirc and with some kiting and healing it wasn't too bad.

The drop in the kitchen is into a pool of water which extinguishes your torch. ...lanterns do exist. And so should, in my personal opinion, everyone always run around with either a firestarter or the means to craft one, *especially* when going on a dedicated adventure in a big ass story location dungeon. It is also not a drop, it is a ladder. You can safely descent far enough that your torch's light illuminates the water below for you to anticipate "I'll get wet and my torch might go out".

If you are used to this kind of games, it might be easy and intuitive, i dont invalidate that. But from perspective of player who enjoys survival/creative building games, and i dont play puzzle games /Indiana jones type games at all, it really cant be done without internet help. It is what it is. View me as person who never saw it. So,do you think people like me should be looking Wiki and guides during their playthrough? Is it good level design? With firestarter- you cannot place anything, how you ignite torch? How you cut pies, get soup out of pot?

[CastIronFabric]

naa.

my opinion is that the sweet spot of this game, what really makes it shine like pretty much no other game out there is specifically its crafting and building mechanics. There are a metric over ton of games out there already that focus on bosses, combat, fighting, base defense which is why I think they should just double down on crafting and building instead of doing things like everyone else on the planet has been doing for 20+ years

 

[Diff]

4 minutes ago, CastIronFabric said:

naa.

my opinion is that the sweet spot of this game, what really makes it shine like pretty much no other game out there is specifically its crafting and building mechanics. There are a metric over ton of games out there already that focus on bosses, combat, fighting, base defense which is why I think they should just double down on crafting and building instead of doing things like everyone else on the planet has been doing for 20+ years

 

I get what you're saying, but VS doesn't lose anything in its crafting or building if combat (or just boss fights) are made more satisfying. They are doubling down on crafting and building. Moving crafting out of the grid is a long term ongoing project, and we continually get a lot of nice building tools.

But the boss fights exist. The game doesn't get worse if those areas improve. Blockgame-style building and crafting have been done for 20+ years at this point, too.

[CastIronFabric]

6 minutes ago, Diff said:

I get what you're saying, but VS doesn't lose anything in its crafting or building if combat (or just boss fights) are made more satisfying. They are doubling down on crafting and building. Moving crafting out of the grid is a long term ongoing project, and we continually get a lot of nice building tools.

But the boss fights exist. The game doesn't get worse if those areas improve. Blockgame-style building and crafting have been done for 20+ years at this point, too.

I understand but I am always reminded of the priniciple of Opportunity Cost which is not only a measure of what you are not doing while you are doing something else but its also a measure of how focus can change if not careful and as your audience changes as well due to those changes.

So for example, lets say you have a flight simulator game, some players now ask for farming in the game. Ok, well not sure how these farm sim fans got into the game but lets add that once we hire more people, cant hurt right? then a bunch of farm sim fans come into the game and then guess what, nobody even bothered to ask why are the farm sim fans in a flight sim in the first place? (see my metaphor?)

Edited August 3 by CastIronFabric

[LadyWYT]

5 hours ago, WilliamClyde said:

Attacks are interesting and have fatality to them, but the thing is, to defeat him, i have to be hidden behind pillar with shield, shoot all my arrows on him, go to him to take arrows back, and repeat.

This isn't true. It depends heavily on player skill, player preference, class choice, and current equipment. The boss itself is quite predictable, having three different attacks, all of which have a rather long wind-up and are clearly telegraphed in order to give the player a chance to deal with it. I will also note that the boss reacts, at least somewhat, to what the player does during the fight. If you're in melee range, the boss will favor melee strikes. If you step out of range, the boss will favor throwing junk or slamming the ground. If you're not within the boss's LoS then it tends to favor the slam in order to launch you out of cover. The only counter-intuitive part I can really think of is that jumping before the slam ability will prevent you from being launched.

As for gear, the minimum requirement is bronze. However, the better the equipment, the easier the fight will generally be. With steel chain and a high-powered steel falx, healing isn't really necessary, but with lesser equipment you might need to heal a time or two during the fight. It's also worth noting that when the boss begins to get low on health, it will summon locusts at a steady pace; at this point, you need to focus on killing the boss, since trying to kill all the locusts or stay healed up to full will only sap your remaining resources and likely end up killing you instead.

The general strategy I use for the fight is to remain within melee range to bait out the melee attacks, stepping back at the right moment to dodge before attacking the boss. Sometimes I equip the shield and just sit there in front of the boss, slicing away with my falx. When the boss telegraphs the slam ability, I jump right before the boss actually hits the ground. If I need to heal, I back off to relative safety and apply a bandage or two as needed, if I can.

4 hours ago, WilliamClyde said:

So,do you think people like me should be looking Wiki and guides during their playthrough?

No, but there is an in-game handbook with almost all the information the player needs about the various general items and gameplay. Vintage Story is a very meaty game, with complex systems that often intertwine with one another, and it's also not a game to hold the player's hand and tell them exactly what to do at any given moment or otherwise make sure they never truly get in over their head.

As for the wiki and online guides, they aren't necessary for playing the game, but they're still useful resources. Players who prefer step-by-step guides or just want more in-depth information than what the handbook can offer will find these resources very useful.

5 hours ago, WilliamClyde said:

Puzzle in engineering room and with that pump and finding mines and so on - its too hard. Not in fun way. Its like those early puzzles in silent hill. You cannot find your way on your own. Story location design needs some tweaks. Not in dramatic way,but devs should find a way to lead the player little more. Last thing that isnt good is that when you go down the ladder in kitchen, you drop in pool of water- torch dies... Player doesnt know he needs to have multiple torches. Mines- enemies too hard, you need to sprint instead of looking around. To put it all together, i had to use creative mod very often- to give myself a torch for example. It needs some improvements...

What kind of improvements though? While it's fine to say you didn't like the design, that's just a personal opinion, and "it needs improving" is an incredibly broad statement that could mean very different things depending on who you ask. 

I will note that I went into the Resonance Archive blind on my first time, and figured out everything just fine, so I mean...I'm with @Rainbow Fresh. The puzzles aren't very hard, and the design is such that it's not possible to get things out of order since parts of the location are locked until you've fixed the appropriate part of the machinery. Examining the machinery itself will tell you what's missing, and paying attention to the notes scattered around the Archive(as well as the set design itself) will give you clues on where to find certain things and what challenges may be ahead. Much of Vintage Story is like this--the lore bits, set designs, and NPC dialogue aren't just there for aesthetics, and the player ignores those details at their own risk.

Regarding torches specifically...the player will have probably figured out long before ever setting foot in the Archive that torches can easily be extinguished in a handful of ways. It's probably not a good idea to rely on a fragile light source like that, or to at least bring multiple torches as backups and split the one you're using from the stack in case something does happen. The "ladder in the kitchen" also clearly leads to a well/reservoir, and climbing down VS ladders is a relatively slow process, so even then the player has some warning about what's coming and an opportunity to correct it.

[Teh Pizza Lady]

5 hours ago, WilliamClyde said:

With firestarter- you cannot place anything, how you ignite torch? How you cut pies, get soup out of pot?

put torch in holder. use firestarter on torch. EZ

you can also cut pies while they are in your inventory and also dip soup out of the pot with a food bowl while it's in your inventory.

All of these could have been found by simple experimenting and trying things instead of blaming the game for your own mistakes, which we all have made and chalked up to needing to git gud instead of, again, blaming the game. It markets itself an an "uncompromising wilderness survival" experience. Not sure why you thought making a blind drop into the abyss with nothing but a torch and a prayer would end well. Sorry your torch went out. I can think of worse things that can happen in the Resonance Archives. You just need to adjust your expectations and not take risks like that. As others have said you had every opportunity to see the water in the reservoir before you jumped in... It's the same argument as making a conscious decision not to scroll past your torch while underwater. You need to retrain your mind to think ahead in this game or you won't have a good time.

[Maethius]

Another option for the torch issue is an oil lamp. They are easy to make early game and are waterproof. I found the battle frustratingly long, and that was with all iron equipment. IMHO, Vintage is about exploration and adventure, not smashing down boss mobs. I certainly appreciate higher lever and more challenging fights, but not a grind. I really loved the Archives, and regret that I couldn't destroy/build there, but certainly liked how that feature played into the story element. I did like bringing the power online, but felt that it should have been a more permanent solution given the scope of the place and the inability to place my own light sources.

[Diff]

11 hours ago, CastIronFabric said:

So for example, lets say you have a flight simulator game, some players now ask for farming in the game. Ok, well not sure how these farm sim fans got into the game but lets add that once we hire more people, cant hurt right? then a bunch of farm sim fans come into the game and then guess what, nobody even bothered to ask why are the farm sim fans in a flight sim in the first place? (see my metaphor?)

Yes, time spent on this is time spent not working on other things. As this is a feature you don't engage with, it is development time you personally will see little to no benefit from, so I understand why you personally would not want this.

Where your metaphor falls apart is that these features are already in the game and are already considered in-scope for what the game wants to be. Every chapter ends in a boss fight, and boss fights have been made core to delivering a lot of the lore that this game puts a lot of energy into. This isn't a discussion on adding vs passing on a feature, it's about polishing a feature we already have. It's already part of the game, and all things that are part of the game should be open for improvements.

Edited August 3 by Diff

[Facethief]

Thinking about it, isn’t Anego studios named after an MMO boss or something? That might explain some of the questionable elements of the fight.

[LadyWYT]

11 minutes ago, Facethief said:

Thinking about it, isn’t Anego studios named after an MMO boss or something? That might explain some of the questionable elements of the fight.

I want to say that it had something to do with Maple Story, but I'm not entirely sure. I'm not that familiar with Maple Story either, but it strikes me as more of a cozy MMO rather than one focused on combat.

Regarding boss fights though, I wouldn't say it's unusual at all for adventure games to have them. I also wouldn't say that it's entirely unusual for most boss fights, no matter the game, to be somewhat dodgy in their design...especially depending on who you ask. Designing a fight isn't that hard, but designing a fight that will be both a proper challenge for the game as well as a satisfying fight for most players to experience, that's quite another matter.

[Rainbow Fresh]

2 hours ago, LadyWYT said:

I'm not that familiar with Maple Story either, but it strikes me as more of a cozy MMO rather than one focused on combat.

I remember Maple Story 2. Found it shortly before Nexon pulled the plug. It was cozy - cause in its dying breath they just gave everyone the endgame gear for free; aside from that though, there were alot of non-combat elements that were really nice and cute so I'd say yeah, Maple Story is/was less of the grindy "farm mobs 24/7" MMO and more of Cube World Online.

As for the on-topic boss discussion; yeah, making boss fights is hard. Especially if you are not Dark Souls and cannot sell the "eternal suffering" as "part of the experience" until the player "gits gud". Vintage Story is not Dark Souls and shouldn't be. Its challenge and threats come from pseudo-realistically complex world mechanics and a general notion of having no "fix all" solution to the monsters in the world while each individual encounter with such, under normal surface circumstances, is rather unimpressive. So while I do think that a stationary boss you just have to tank for long enough is boring as hell, I genuinely wouldn't know how to make a more impressive fight out of it. Not to mention that a suitably sized arena would be very hard to hide in the world considering the incredible scale of the rest of the dungeon already. Maybe instead of head-on boss fights gimmick "bosses" that play into the puzzle aspect of story dungeons could help? Like some sort of greater threat that needs dealing with without having to wail on a big corpse for an hour. Think of a locust, or harder yet, bell factory still operation and you need to shut it down lest infinite mobs spawn. Mobs you can run past to find the source, not be forcibly locked into combat forever. A pipe bursting somewhere and the area flooding and you need to find the shut-off valve lest you drown. A big creature boss with many small phases that require less attrition and more problem solving to figure out. Something like that, maybe.

[CastIronFabric]

13 hours ago, Diff said:

Yes, time spent on this is time spent not working on other things. As this is a feature you don't engage with, it is development time you personally will see little to no benefit from, so I understand why you personally would not want this.

Where your metaphor falls apart is that these features are already in the game and are already considered in-scope for what the game wants to be. Every chapter ends in a boss fight, and boss fights have been made core to delivering a lot of the lore that this game puts a lot of energy into. This isn't a discussion on adding vs passing on a feature, it's about polishing a feature we already have. It's already part of the game, and all things that are part of the game should be open for improvements.

A farming simulator has driving, but that does not make it a racing game. This game is exceptionally good and something, its audience plays the game because of that strength, I would argue the audience goes out of its way to play this specific game because of those reasons . It just seems to me it makes more sense to leverage that, instead of focusing on things that every game on the market already does.

and like I have said many times before and will say again 'because the developers want to do this' does not mean by definition its a good idea to do so. Developers are not Gods, yes its 'their own game' but just because its their own game and their own choice does not mean it by default a good decision. Nevermind the fact that we are all here in this thread discussing a possible improvement in the first place which is defacto a change (so a bit of logic irony there). I am extremely confident that the majority of people who play this game if not the overwhelming majority of people who play this game never play the story missions beyond the Archive in the first place and I also doubt they do not go further because the boss fights are not engaging enough. So maybe its possible that 'if developer  creates something, thou must admit its a good decision' is perhaps faulty reasoning.

 

 

Edited Tuesday at 12:24 PM by CastIronFabric

[LadyWYT]

8 hours ago, Rainbow Fresh said:

So while I do think that a stationary boss you just have to tank for long enough is boring as hell, I genuinely wouldn't know how to make a more impressive fight out of it.

The main things I would do are put iron bars over the alcoves instead of invisible walls, since that serves the same purpose(stops the player from getting flung there and cheesing the fight) but makes more logical sense. I'd also tone down how far the boss's slam ability can fling the player, since I mean...while it is a cool ability, it's not particularly realistic. It makes more sense to just let the slam stagger the player, if it does anything at all, and otherwise let the falling rocks serve as a hazard.

As for the fight being impressive? I don't think it really needs to be, honestly. It's the first major fight that the player will encounter, at least so far, so it I think it's fine to let the fight be pretty straightforward as an introduction to what to expect the rest of the game. It should still be tough, since the game is still uncompromising survival, and the story elements should have some pretty high levels of danger when appropriate. 

One other possibility I'll throw out--add some kind of special tuning spear to the boss arena. It's a weapon that's clearly on the fritz, and can only be used once. However, when used on the boss it will deal a large chunk of damage. The player can then choose to use it early in the fight, save it for the killing blow later when the locusts begin to swarm, or perhaps even forgo using it entirely in favor of keeping it as a trophy item. There's also the option of making the boss's "eye" a weak point, and letting the player do more damage if they hit that specific location compared to other areas of the boss. I used these tactics in an adventure I've been DMing, and it was quite useful, especially since I leaned more heavily into realism with the idea that bladed weapons aren't going to do much to a giant metal monster. 

[Rainbow Fresh]

8 minutes ago, LadyWYT said:

The main things I would do are put iron bars over the alcoves instead of invisible walls, since that serves the same purpose(stops the player from getting flung there and cheesing the fight) but makes more logical sense. I'd also tone down how far the boss's slam ability can fling the player, since I mean...while it is a cool ability, it's not particularly realistic. It makes more sense to just let the slam stagger the player, if it does anything at all, and otherwise let the falling rocks serve as a hazard.

As for the fight being impressive? I don't think it really needs to be, honestly. It's the first major fight that the player will encounter, at least so far, so it I think it's fine to let the fight be pretty straightforward as an introduction to what to expect the rest of the game. It should still be tough, since the game is still uncompromising survival, and the story elements should have some pretty high levels of danger when appropriate. 

One other possibility I'll throw out--add some kind of special tuning spear to the boss arena. It's a weapon that's clearly on the fritz, and can only be used once. However, when used on the boss it will deal a large chunk of damage. The player can then choose to use it early in the fight, save it for the killing blow later when the locusts begin to swarm, or perhaps even forgo using it entirely in favor of keeping it as a trophy item. There's also the option of making the boss's "eye" a weak point, and letting the player do more damage if they hit that specific location compared to other areas of the boss. I used these tactics in an adventure I've been DMing, and it was quite useful, especially since I leaned more heavily into realism with the idea that bladed weapons aren't going to do much to a giant metal monster. 

Weakpoints sound like a great idea. Maybe being able to briegly stun the boss in a recoil animation if hit hard/often enough with the boss's moves (maybe a dedicated blocking move) trying to shield itself against the attack; think Breath of the Wild Hinox. Adds some more dynamic, espcially the kind that the player can somewhat control, other than "roll the die. It's attack 1; roll the die. It's attack 3. Roll the die..."

[LadyWYT]

5 minutes ago, Rainbow Fresh said:

Weakpoints sound like a great idea. Maybe being able to briegly stun the boss in a recoil animation if hit hard/often enough with the boss's moves (maybe a dedicated blocking move) trying to shield itself against the attack; think Breath of the Wild Hinox. Adds some more dynamic, espcially the kind that the player can somewhat control, other than "roll the die. It's attack 1; roll the die. It's attack 3. Roll the die..."

I don't think it needs to be stunned--the fight is already fast enough as it is, and the boss can't move. If it were a different boss fight, or the boss itself had more lethal attacks, then sure. 

The "weak points" feature could easily be applied to other enemies, though I'm not sure that it should apply to every creature. Just the ones that are both large and tough, or certain wildlife to make hunting a little more "realistic".

Another aspect to consider is status effects. They aren't in the game yet, but once added they can shift fight dynamics significantly. Attacks don't necessarily need to do direct damage in this case; they could break bones or inflict other nasty injuries and conditions that debuff the player.

[Diff]

1 hour ago, LadyWYT said:

status effects. They aren't in the game yet

Are those confirmed on the roadmap? That'd be really interesting to see Anego's take on it, I do think systems like that in games like The Long Dark and Project Zomboid feel an awful lot more survival focused when a bandaid isn't enough to make severe injuries vanish in seconds. 

I do wonder how that'll interact with seraphs being seraphs. The other two games I mentioned, if you die that's it. You're forced to deal with your injuries. In VS I'll jump off a roof rather than be inconvenienced by having to walk to the cellar for a snack. I don't think it makes sense for injuries to follow you after death, but maybe it'll still be challenging enough when you break a leg in a boss fight and still have to finish off the boss and drag yourself home intact. 

[LadyWYT]

15 minutes ago, Diff said:

Are those confirmed on the roadmap?

Quote

Improved gameplay

• Comprehensive Status Effects System

https://www.vintagestory.at/roadmap.html/

Yes. Not only that, but I think the system was supposed to be added in 1.22, but got shelved in favor of, well, shelves. Which I don't think is a bad thing, since it's likely going to shake up gameplay significantly, so more development time is better.

16 minutes ago, Diff said:

I do wonder how that'll interact with seraphs being seraphs. The other two games I mentioned, if you die that's it. You're forced to deal with your injuries. In VS I'll jump off a roof rather than be inconvenienced by having to walk to the cellar for a snack. I don't think it makes sense for injuries to follow you after death, but maybe it'll still be challenging enough when you break a leg in a boss fight and still have to finish off the boss and drag yourself home intact. 

Depends on the injuries. I think some should potentially follow after death, in some form at least, so that the player isn't just using death as a cheap "reset" to avoid dealing with a more serious injury like a broken bone, or perhaps something that was quite avoidable, like starvation. However, most could probably be wiped clean on death, with "resurrection sickness" getting applied instead as a significant temporary debuff that can't easily be treated with medicine. That way, the player still has a chance to recover from whatever killed them, but is otherwise discouraged from treating death as a cheap way to avoid dealing with things they otherwise don't want to deal with. Of course, I'd like to say that most players would rather try to treat the injuries, and thus have the bragging rights of having survived such a harrowing ordeal. However...players are players, and many prefer to opt for whatever the most convenient option is, even if it's not the most logical or realistic one.

[Banch]

I don't think the current combat system lends itself to interesting boss fights. The fact you can just die and respawn and the fight doesn't start over will inevitably remove all the tension, and so far the only differences between tiers/types of weapons and armor are just numbers. As for dungeons and puzzles though, I hope we get a lot more. I really liked that it took me multiple trips to clear the Archives, it had me building a temporary base outside and stuff like that.

[Galaxial]

I'm going to be honest, the boss fight is easy ( in my opinion ) once you get the hang of it. The main thing that makes it difficult is how unexpected it is and how disoriented you become from its attacks.

Spoiler for defeating it:

Spoiler

Getting close enough to the boss causes it to only perform a melee attack on you ( and the ground slam if I remember ). You can use this to your advantage by just running back and forth, dodging its attacks and then getting back in immediately. This completely negates the need for a shield if done right and you can keep on repeating this until you eventually cheese the boss in a way.

The locusts might pose some trouble but after they're dealt with you can go right back to the aforementioned strategy.

Edited Saturday at 11:39 AM by Galaxial

[Facethief]

Ok, here’s my take, from someone who plays a decent amount of games like Hollow Knight:

-Patterns are good. Rewarding the player for keeping track of how things are going is good.

-Giving the player USABLE windows for doing things that give them multiple opportunities for what to do (boss is stunned, should I heal or whale on it?) is good. IMO, these are good for player expression, and giving the ability to cut these times short (as a config) makes the fight more adjustable.

Aside from these points, I think I had other ideas, but I forgot them. 
Keep in mind that these points are things I personally like in a metroidvania boss fight where healing and health are commodities, which actually lines up closely with the situation in this game, as opposed to a game like Blasphemous 2, in which healing is instant and very powerful, but limited in charges.

 As for suggestions for this particular fight:

Maybe a trash chute to stop the boss from sitting on your stuff? This has always been a weird thing to me: I’m not going to make multiple sets of everything in case I die, especially if resources for doing so are limited. I hate runbacks.

Cool idea: maybe the archives could have a little smithy for replacing parts that happens to have enough to make some scrappy armor/weapons? It’s actually really weird that there isn’t one, it would make sense, especially given there’s a whole mine under the place.

[Stralgaez]

17 hours ago, Banch said:

I don't think the current combat system lends itself to interesting boss fights. The fact you can just die and respawn and the fight doesn't start over will inevitably remove all the tension, and so far the only differences between tiers/types of weapons and armor are just numbers. As for dungeons and puzzles though, I hope we get a lot more. I really liked that it took me multiple trips to clear the Archives, it had me building a temporary base outside and stuff like that.

That may be the case, but in there can lose also everything you painstakingly crafted by hand, especially the armor if you decided to get into brigandine/plate, from materials you perhaps had to go quite around with prospecting pickaxes to find the ore or the minerals to be able to make such pieces. 

And given that the Archives can be relatively far away from when you start your journey, this comes with the near-guarantee loss of your items if you are killed inside there.

 

My group didn't wanted to bother with the boss anymore after the second attempt (and fail) on vanilla, so I switched the mode and have it beaten while it was inert, then brought them in via teleport and switched back to survival. They still lost a lot of items, but managed to scrounge up some stuff after giving the place another sweep before entering the library.

Was it silly to resolve it like this? Maybe.

But this didn't bring them any fun, and before it killed any form of motivation and drive to pursue the story (and maybe the whole game itself), I intervened and made sure they came back with something. 

Edited Saturday at 08:48 PM by Stralgaez

[CastIronFabric]

I still hold the position that people do not play this game for combo moves and boss fights. I still hold the position that the reason most people do not do the all the story quests is NOT related to the boss fights other than perhaps the dragon thingy which from my understanding everyone finds too hard and too tedious.

I still hold the position that the vast majority of people came to this specific game specifically for the building and craftings, not the combo moves boss fights.

 

[Facethief]

2 hours ago, CastIronFabric said:

I still hold the position that people do not play this game for combo moves and boss fights. I still hold the position that the reason most people do not do the all the story quests is NOT related to the boss fights other than perhaps the dragon thingy which from my understanding everyone finds too hard and too tedious.

I still hold the position that the vast majority of people came to this specific game specifically for the building and craftings, not the combo moves boss fights.

 

So just leave them in a bad state? The developers obviously care about these features, or they wouldn’t have put them in the main story, so I don’t think they’re likely to not keep working on these things.