sharpening, weapon damage, material

[Stroam]

It has annoyed me how video games have swords of different metals doing different damage to unarmored creatures. At this point, it's pretty much accepted in video games because it's been done so many times. I suggest a more immersive approach. Tools with a blade will have two bars. One for durability and one for sharpness. As a player uses a bladed weapon the sharpness goes down and so too does the damage the weapon inflicts. For an ax, it also reduces cutting speed. The harder the metal of the weapon the slower this goes down. Once the blade is dull it still may have durability but it isn't going to be very effective. To make the blade sharp again the player will have to sharpen the blade using a sharpening stone or grinding wheel. This eats away the durability but restores the full damage/chopping speed. With this system, a copper blade and a steel blade can do the same damage to unarmored creatures but the copper blade will immediately start losing damage while the steel blade keeps its edge for a much longer time.

[Milo Christiansen]

A small hand sharpening stone used to "touch up" an edge would be a nice thing to have in this system. It should provide small improvements very slowly, but if used often it should be able to keep a blade in good shape without too much effort.

A proper grind stone should be needed to finish forged blades and/or repair very dull blades in a reasonable time frame.

The grind stone should be a blacksmith level item, assuming skills or professions become a thing, while a smaller sharpening stone should be a common item.

[redram]

If we follow the realistic path of blades and points dulling fast on armor, what you'll end up with is probably a system where everyone just uses bludgeoning weapons because they don't dull hardly at all (if we're being realistic).  Unless they do significantly less damage.  So, if everyone is fine with bladed and pointed weapons being used on unarmored beasts or monsters, while bludgeoning weapons are used on armored foes, then ok.  I'm fine either way, but I think it's good to think out the results.

Considering further, I think this system greatly advantages mobs, who have no ongoing concern for weapon sharpness.  Because frankly the player is not going to have much comfort that the orc's blade has been dulled significantly, if the player is dead.  20 orcs can afford to break their blades on the player's armor.  Those orcs are there to die anyway.  The player does not have this kind of luxury.

It's true that flesh is much softer than any metal and logically would take the same damage from any metal.  But what about weapon vs armor in terms of material?  It could be that all weapons of a given type do the same damage regardless of material, but if they are up against armor, then the damage is reduced depending on whether the armor is inferior or superior in material.  This way a player can still actually protect themselves from damage.   Copper sword vs flesh = 100% damage.  copper sword vs copper armor = 50% damage.   copper sword vs steel armor = 10% damage.  That kind of thing.  You could have the inferior item simply take more durability damage from a superior one.  You can still have the sharpness thing if you want, but honestly it seems like an annoyance to me.  Kind of like trimming rot in TFC.

[Stroam]

Annoying is a function of frequency. I like:

On 2/16/2018 at 3:56 PM, Milo Christiansen said:

A small hand sharpening stone used to "touch up" an edge

Sure, as long as it is much slower than using a grinding station.

On 2/16/2018 at 4:43 PM, redram said:

everyone just uses bludgeoning weapons because they don't dull hardly at all (if we're being realistic).  Unless they do significantly less damage.

Yes, there need to be trade-offs if we want the right tool for the job and not a hammer for all occasions. That being said, I think we only need a small number of weapons. A ranged weapon(pierce), a weapon for armor with medium damage(blunt), a bladed weapon for high damage to unarmored enemies(slashing).

On 2/16/2018 at 4:43 PM, redram said:

I think this system greatly advantages mobs, who have no ongoing concern for weapon sharpness.

Do we care if it advantages mobs? I mean they kinda need all the help they can get considering how crafty players are.

On 2/16/2018 at 4:43 PM, redram said:

It's true that flesh is much softer than any metal and logically would take the same damage from any metal.  But what about weapon vs armor in terms of material?  It could be that all weapons of a given type do the same damage regardless of material, but if they are up against armor, then the damage is reduced depending on whether the armor is inferior or superior in material.  This way a player can still actually protect themselves from damage.   Copper sword vs flesh = 100% damage.  copper sword vs copper armor = 50% damage.   copper sword vs steel armor = 10% damage.  That kind of thing.  You could have the inferior item simply take more durability damage from a superior one

1

I feel that is a good compromise though I think swords should decrease way more rapidly starting with gambeson which is just many layers of linen because leather armor is crap without wood or metal bits sewn into it. 

[Milo Christiansen]

Sword, spear, bow, and some kind of blunt weapon seems like a good basic mix.

My ideas on balance:

• Warhammer: No edge wear, normal reach, ok damage vs flesh, good damage vs armor
• Sword: Edged, normal reach, good damage vs flesh, ok damage vs armor
• Spear: Edged, long reach, good damage all around, low durability (or maybe slow attack speed?)
• Bow: Ranged, good damage all around, needs ammo.

This is pretty rough, and there is room for more weapons, for example different swing speeds, damage amounts, reach amounts, etc could allow a lot more variables to allow more unique weapons is anyone feels a need for them. Personally, the four listed should be enough for vanilla at this stage.

Only two weapons that need sharpening? Not so fast! Knives, axes, shears, maybe even pickaxes should all require sharpening.

[tony Liberatto]

Yeah, but right now the Bow is just a waste of time and resources. It just takes too many arrows to kill anything. I even try to make bronze arrowheads but it didn't help much. I thought it would be useful for hunting.

 

[Stroam]

@Milo Christiansen I think

• warhammer reach 1, decent all around. Takes 2 ingots. No need to sharpen, slow to swing.
• Sword reach 1.5, high damage vs unarmored, low damage vs armored. Takes two ingots. Needs sharpened and fast to swing.
• Spear reach 3, low damage all around. Half an ingot. Needs less sharpening than a sword. Can be thrown

@tony Liberatto I didn't have much luck with the bow either. It does have higher damage per hit than any weapon at equal tier but hitting the target was really difficult. I've shot 20 arrows at a goat and it hit the block the block directly behind the goat and the arrow was sticking through the goat but the goat wasn't damaged. I'm sure with a lot of practice it could be one of the more deadly weapons but definitely not as easy as nerd polling and then hitting them with a sword or spear. But even that goes back to the damage thing. Whey do copper arrows do less damage than black bronze arrows? I feel like the damage should be the same for all metal arrows. Also if it takes more than three shots to kill something then the bow isn't very useful. A wolf you are lucky to get one or two in before it's on top of you. The goats and boars even with iron arrows take 5 shots.

edit:

Apparently, it is good for hitting mobs at a distance from the other side of a pit in which the mobs will fall into without trying to avoid. So it's best to dig a pit near what you are trying to kill. Shoot them with cheap flint arrows to get them to come after you and fall into the pit. Then pull out your spear and stab them to death from above.

[redram]

6 hours ago, Stroam said:

Shoot them with cheap flint arrows to get them to come after you and fall into the pit. Then pull out your spear and stab them to death from above.

As far as 'bait weapons', rocks would be cheaper and easier I'd think.  Though I've actually not even used the bow so idk, maybe the range and accuracy are better than rocks?  Thing about rocks is you can bank shot them so they're a little forgiving on aim.

Maybe I'm imagining the mob advantage issue, but I just feel like it'd annoy the player that they have these issues and limitations while mobs effectively do not, and the mechanic overall seems like an annoyance to me still.  But I do like that it'd add a use for diamonds though, presumably.

As for the linen gambeson, looks like there's a ton of debate over that.  I don't have the background or depth of research to argue over effectiveness but some of his explanations on the economics strike me as a bit ill informed, so I do have questions on his credibility some.  Regardless, I would say that A) we don't need more flax demand right now, and B) leather armor is a fantasy/video game staple, and makes animal husbandry a more viable trade, so why not use it regardless?  On the other hand, gambeson of giant spider silk?  Yes please.

 

[tony Liberatto]

Someone with actual medieval sword fighting corrects me if I am wrong. 

If you try to cut leather by hitting with a sword you will not be very successful. You need to do a slicing movement.

Even to stab is not that easy. The leather is hard and will protect you. 

Have you ever try to add a hole to your leather belt? It is a lot harder than what it looks.

Do metal armor provides more protection? For sure. That does not mean leather is worthless. 

A leather outfit will protect you from small cuts and scrapes and will be better than naked skin in a sword fight. It will especially help you against animal bites. 

It will not protect you from a morning star in your head.or a slice to your neck.

[Stroam]

 

Yah rocks don't have the range for more than short distances I feel but hey, you always have a glut of rocks. I feel like his research the gambeson is more extensive than my own and that I've seen video tests that show it is more effective than leather armor. That being said I've seen Japanese wooden armor work better than leather armor. Leather definitely stops the blade from going deeper than it would on an unarmored opponent, does resist stabbing, and is horrible against slashing. The key for any armor is layers. 

@redram Yes silk armor can funny enough stop very early firearms.

Maybe fabrics and armor need their own own crafting interfaces where you can layer different fabrics together and add them to different parts of the armor that affect the defense, mobility and look of the armor. As opposed to a selection of armors you can make like in Minecraft.