Leather Crafting and Beyond

[redram]

So awhile back I asked on Discord if the actual method of crafting leather into items had been decided yet, and Saraty said it had not, so I wanted to make a suggestion in that regard.  This suggestion is pursuant to making things as GUI-less as possible.  And, it can be applied to other material types as well.  Its probably a bit involved code-wise, and I'm not sure how friendly it will be for custom 'recipes', but hopefully it can work out.  So:

THE PIECES

I'll start from the point the player has actual leather.  They've done all the scraping and tanning and so forth, now they want to make an item out of it.  First you have to establish some basic leather pieces that will be used to construct the items.   These pieces will be constructed by taking a piece of 'tanned hide', and shift-clicking it on a surface, selecting the piece they want to make, and using a knife to remove voxels till it's down to what they want.  Very much like flint knapping.  You start with a rough outline with ragged edges.  The player then makes this into what they want.   There's only really two recipes though: a piece of leather, or leather straps.  To make a piece of leather you simply trim the rough edges to make a square or rectangle.  To make straps, you do the same but also remove some lines, leaving maybe 3 or 4 strips.  If the game were to have different sizes of hides like tfc there might be options to also make a large piece of leather.  

THE ASSEMBLY

This is where it gets code-complicated.  What I'm suggesting is that a player then be able to basically get a 3d model wireframe of what they want to make, and then apply these pieces to the model.  The model probably would be a simplified version.  Or, if there exists an actual 3d model, it could perhaps even be a wireframe of that model.  The player just takes the pieces and right clicks them on the faces they go to.  So for instance, the following might be the general steps of a quiver:

At left, the blank 'wireframe' (imagine it's a wireframe).   First thing the player does is take a piece of leather and right click on the body of the quiver.  Depending on how many pieces of leather you want a quiver to take, they might have to do 1 piece per side (for 4 total) or for a simpler recipe, just 1 piece fills all four sides.   Result is second picture.  After that you take a leather strap, right click it on the 'handle', and it fills in.  It could end right there, and pop off a quiver.  That'd be really simple for the player.

Or, take it to the next level.  After applying the shoulder strap, highlighted lines show up at various places on the pattern.  These are the stitches.  The player now takes their stitching material (flax thread, tendon, cotton twine, etc) and clicks on each stitch, individually filling each one.  Similar to clayworking and metal working, each time you apply a piece of twine, it adds so many stitches.  So as shown, if each piece of twine were good for 4 stitches, this recipe would require 2 pieces, as there's 8 total stitches shown.  The last photo shows the vertical row of stitches complete.  They change color as the player applies them.  After the last one is filled, the recipe is complete and a quiver item pops off.   Note that the item that pops off probably isn't going to look like the in-process model, unless Tyron is even more of a wizard that he already seems.  The in-process model would use very generic textures for each material.  We're just being generally indicative here.

Here is a pair of leather pants:

This recipe could be as simple as 1 piece each for each leg, and one for the waist area, for 3 total.  You could have each piece of leather do 2 faces, for 6 total (bottom of waist would go along with one of the side pairs).  or you could have each individual face take a piece of leather, for 13 total pieces.  Stitches here are shown just one corner of four for each leg, but you could do 2, or all corners.  The nice thing about this is it provides a lot of leeway in terms of pieces required.

BEYOND LEATHER

But even better, I think the basic idea can be applied across many materials.  Here is steel body armor:

The front and back, and shoulders, are all steel plate.  You could make the upper and lower parts separate simple steel plates, or you could make the player forge a breastplate, and then apply that item to either of those faces, and it fills them both in.  Armor plates are attached with rivets (the red dots - uses a hammer).  The side pieces are chain mail.  They are attached with leather straps.   So now we get into interesting mixed media, where the player is using armor plates, chain maille, and leather straps.   Leather armor could even have regular leather portions, and boiled leather portions, if you want to get more 'real' with it. 

The 'disadvantage' of this system, as I see it, is it'll probably require a pretty custom blank 'canvas' for every single item type, not only in the model, but in which planes are grouped, and where the attachment points are.  This may make it a difficult system for modders to add new recipes if their item does not match an existing framework model.  They'd have to learn how to make a new model, and program which faces are what and where the attachment points are.  But, I'm hoping that maybe they would mostly be able to just use existing patterns for most things.  

This system also requires the player to interact with individual pixels of the texture, not just voxels which are 2x2x2 pixels.  So there's some technical hurdles there maybe, not to mention requiring a more steady hand on the player's part.   But, Tyron did such an awesome job with smithing, I thought it worth proposing this system.  It seems like people so far have pretty positive reactions to the 'in-world' crafting the game has so far, and I wanted to try and stay with that theme, and thought this might be a good way to do it, rather than just having the player do 2d representations of everything.  I think it would be a good system for any items that are basically composed of planes of materials - clothing, armor, quivers, saddles, bags, etc.  You could even do something like this with reeds, having the player apply a couple rows of reeds at a time as they build up the basket or hamper.   

So ya, would love to hear thoughts.

[Milo Christiansen]

Complex, but very cool.

It would likely need special object models (and hence be harder to mod), but it would be so awesome to have it anyway!

[tony Liberatto]

I just love the idea.

I would like to maybe improve it a bit.

The first thing is the working tables, one just for cutting leather. A surface made up of 4 blocks so it has a big area and can accommodate different leather sizes. So we are ready for Cows and big animals.

The second is a Mold or Form.( Not sure if it is the best name for it ). The idea is for the player to create a mold by sculpting a log until it has the desired shape. It would need one for each Leather recipe.

In the case of the quiver, it would just be a cuboid in the same shape of the quiver.

The player then gets this piece of wood and shift clicks to the Leatherworking table, he/she then starts to add the different pieces and shapes of leather and sew them together. In the case of the quiver, it would actually be inverted, with the bottom up so the player can sew the bottom.

The same working manner could be used for all the different things we would make with leather.

If you ever see someone working on shoes you will notice that they have a metal foot that they use to hold the shoe and work on it.

For example, if the player wants to make a leather armor he/she would create a wood torso and then use the leather pieces to dress that torso until it is done.

I think having different stations to cut leather and to actually work on them will give the player the opportunity to create a space in the house reserved for leatherworking.

[redram]

Ya, I actually considered a table as part of the setup, but leather working needs to be available in the stone age, so in the end I just kind of ditched the table, figured the player could make their own work surface of whatever they wanted, because the table options in the stone age are pretty limited.  So in stone age they just use the ground or a log or whatever, but later they might use actual tables just for the look.  Maybe if item quality were a thing, there could indeed be special leather crafting table, that adds to quality.  I was thinking it'd even be fun to be able to lay a blueprint of a specific item on top of the table, and then the player doesn't have to select from a menu of items, it just automatically starts whatever item the blueprint is of.   

Of course if we did wood forms that would effectively take the place of the blueprint.  Though I still think blueprints would be fun to be able to decorate with, at least.  Or maybe they provide a bonus still, even if they're not directly used in crafting.  But, how is the player making this wood form?  Chisels are metal age.  Stone adze I guess?    I was also trying to tone down the amount of work for the player, which is why I didn't go the form route.  I'd be for it though, if everyone else didn't think it'd be too much.

Edit: Just wanted to add, I also saw this as a  way to reduce the amount of smithing recipes for armor and such.  You'd have chain maille pieces, armor plates (or just metal plates if we want to keep it simple) and maybe breastplates, plus the leather bits.  You don't have to have a separate recipe for each individual type of armor.  You can still make the overall armor take a lot of material, without being limited by the area of the anvil top, which kind of puts an upper limit on the cost of any one piece.  Maybe it's too much for the vanilla game, but perhaps someone could eventually mod in a hardcore armor recipe:  First you have to make an entire jerkin of chain maille, then you place metal plates over the top in certain areas, with leather straps to secure, and then at the end, you right click on this assemblage with the linen gambeson or whatever, which acts as the key to pop off the entire thing.   That would make plate armor a huge endeavor, but with a high(er) historical fidelity. 

[tony Liberatto]

I agree, in the stone age, the player should be able to use some log as a working surface. It just makes sense.

I like the idea of the blueprints. They could be used to cut the leather in the right shape.

In my view the player would cut the quiver in this shape:

Then he/she would put on top of the form and use a hammer to bend the leather.

He/she would need to puncture holes and sew together for the final product.

Once we have the mold on top of a surface clicking with an empty hand would rotate and we should have an option for lay down or upright.

When you extend this concept, you can have a casted metal torso that can be used to bend a cuted metal plate to make metal armor. 

Expensive? Yes, but you only need one form to make as many armors as you need.

Sorry for the low-quality texture I am terrible in that aspect.

 

[Stroam]

I have limited leather working experience but I do have sewing experience as I've helped my mother make dresses, quilts, and costumes as well some metal working experience working in a modern age blacksmith. The difference between metal and cloth is that metal needs shaping. Leather falls somewhere between leather and cloth. Now before I launch into the process there are certain requirements and specifications that the system must meet for it to work.

• Leather working and tailoring must be able to be done in the stone age.
• The system must have a way of increasing and decreasing costs.
• The system must be able to handle 100+ recipes.
• The system must be user-friendly.
• It must be engaging.

That handles the basic requirements but I'm going to add some advanced features I'd like to see.

• Being able to repair finished items.
• Being able to upgrade finished items.
• Being able to use multiple materials to enhance an armor with some sort of limit.
• The system must reflect real-world crafting process.

Now to get into the processes. First is going to cover patterns. If their are 100's of patterns it's going to be difficult to navigate and some patterns players will want to bookmark etc. I suggest a menu system inspired by smartphones. There are 5 options in a column with an arrow at the top and bottom to scroll through the options. To limit the number of options needed to scroll through, a category is selected and then a second scroll menu pops up on the right narrowing the results until you have the pattern you want. For example, a quiver strap might be container, ammo, arrow, quiver strap. While a shirt forearm might be equipment, torso, shirt, forearm. Later if the player wants to bookmark a selection they can gather charcoal and paper. Then when scrolling through the selection at any point they can bookmark the current selection and make a blueprint. The blueprint can then be placed on top of a solid block and then when the player places a sheet of material on the blueprint the menu will pop up and already be at the blueprinted option. Some patterns the player will start with and others must be found in ruins. When a pattern is found it can be consumed to learn the pattern. If a player wants to share a pattern they can make a blueprint of it and give it to the other player to consume. These patterns can be applied to cloth, leather when placed on a solid block, metal and anvil obviously, and even wooden logs with a chisel(yes they had stone age chisels).

After selecting a pattern you then need to use a knife to cut out the piece if it's leather or cloth. Metal uses the smithing sytem.

Next is making an item. An item may take multiple pattern pieces depending on the resource cost of the item. Once the player has all the pieces of the pattern they need a generic wooden model(credit:Tony Liberatto). The model is determined by the slot the item goes in although specialized models might be needed for certain items. Next, the player places the pieces on the model. When only all the correct pieces have been placed on a model certain sections will be highlighted. Then taking the appropriate binding material you can click on the sections to bind all the parts together and create a finished item(credit:redram). Not all parts need be made of the same material. By using different materials it'll change the stats and look of the item. Furthermore, items can be placed back on the wooden models and have individual pieces replaced. This allows players to repair and change out the materials in that item.
 

[redram]

@Stroam I'm not sure though, why you need to have something as specific as a "quiver strap" or "shirt forearm".  Why not just have basic "strap" or piece of cloth, and allow it to be used wherever straps or cloth are appropriate? 

I'm also a little unclear, is there a difference between "blueprint" and "pattern"?  You kind of started with blueprint, which you mentioned being used to 'bookmark' the pattern you want, but then applying patterns to materials.  So is a pattern basically an insta-craft of the item?  Are they consumed upon use?  I'm honestly not a fan of insta-crafting via pattern/blueprint.

[Stroam]

 @redram

The strap was an example. How I imagine items coming together is each wooden model has a subset of recipes it works for. Each time you place a piece on the model it goes through the recipes to try and find a match. If no recipe provides an exact match it does nothing. If there is an exact match it pulls up the corresponding stitch pattern and overlays it on the model. With such a system as long as each recipe has a unique set of pieces you can use a generic leather strap. Where it doesn't work is if two recipes are exactly the same such as a generic strap, generic sheet being used both for quiver and pouch. By having more specific pieces it avoids recipe conflicts even if the cutout pattern is the same.

You got pattern and blueprint mixed up. A pattern is not a physical item. It is the shape you cut into the leather or cloth. A blueprint is a physical item that may be placed down on a solid block. The benefit of a blueprint vs not having a blueprint is without a blueprint you have to go through the entire menu of selecting container, ammo, arrow, quiver strap; where if you had already made a blueprint of arrow and were crafting on top of that it'd instantly jump you to arrow so all you have to do is select quiver strap instead of going through the entire menu. If you were to make a blueprint of quiver strap specifically then you wouldn't need to select anything. By placing leather down on top of a blueprint for quiver strap it would instantly bring up the cutout pattern. Blueprints are shortcuts essentially. Even with a blueprint you still have to cut out the pattern. It does not shortcut that aspect.  

[redram]

I guess I'm having a hard time visualizing how you would have a wooden model that covers both pouch and quiver, and needs that differentiation of pieces.  I would think most models would be fairly specific. Is it more of an armor and clothes trying to share the same form issue?

Ok so a pattern is just the player learning that pattern and having it in their repertoire.  It makes sense now, though I'm not sure limiting some to ruins is a good idea.  I think players would not love being forbidden a pattern just because rng.   It would create a market for them though.  I guess it'd depend on exactly what they are.

[Stroam]

@redram That's probably my fault for poor use of examples. Hopefully, this helps clarify.

Right now blocks such as the blasting ore bomb and all the tools use the same shapes with different textures. I'm imagining the same thing for equipment. A basic shirt and basic leather armor would share the same model but be textured differently. If you want a different model that uses the same wooden model such as wool coat you would need a different combination of patterns so the wooden model knows this is a coat model and not a retextured shirt model. Also, the shape of a piece on a wooden model may not necessarily look like it would while wearing it. Somethings may be exaggerated to make sowing easier and to allow for multiple items to use the same wooden model because having a wooden model for every fabricated item would be ridiculous.

Remember players can share patterns with other players by making blueprints or decide not to share so they can produce differentiated products from the rest of their competitors. It'd be for unique items sets. Players would start with all the basic patterns but fancy stuff you'd have to find or find someone who already found it. I'm not saying people can't make shirts from the get-go, I'm just saying they can't make that particular fancy one. Also to turn it into a profession you can lock certain recipes behind skill levels. Maybe even recipes that you can normally only find in ruins.

 

[DMKW]

I was trying to think of a way to craft with leather and give the same feeling you get when knapping tools.  Its fairly simple I think but could still be fun.  All craft-able leather pieces whether it be armor or otherwise have the same templates.  For instance all leather leggings have the same template although the results would change depending on materials used and maybe tools as well for more ornate or more advanced pieces.  You start with the basic legging template on a hide of leather.  You cut it out by keeping your mouse within the lines.  Picture the old board game Operation, where if you touched the edges you lost.  In this case if you touch the lines the leather is ruined and lost.  This keeps things simple as all leather leggings shared the same basic shape but still keeps the act of working it fun with elements of risk.  Or maybe it would be incredibly annoying?  Just an idea.  

[redram]

Not sure what you mean by "all leather leggings" @DMKW?  I would think there will probably only be one type of leather leggings, unless things get Stroam-level complicated.

[DMKW]

"all leather leggings" if there are different variants of leather leggings.  Like studded leather, boiled leather, dragon leather, what have you.  All would share the same cutout template.

[Stroam]

2 hours ago, DMKW said:

"all leather leggings" if there are different variants of leather leggings.  Like studded leather, boiled leather, dragon leather, what have you.  All would share the same cutout template.

That'd be true in "Stroam-level complicated"

[redram]

Apparently you can get into some pretty serious internet arguments regarding leather armor and how it's depicted in fantasy.  And they have a point.  Studded leather armor was probably never a thing.  when people see that in old pictures or whatever, what they're seeing are the rivets that hold metal plates on the 'back' side of the leather.  Putting a few rivets in leather isn't going to do anything for it's defensive quality.  Boiled leather should probably be the default assumption for leather armor.  But ya, 'beast leather' could certainly be its own case.

[tony Liberatto]

 In an attempt to be historically accurate and follow a tech progression we sometimes have to sacrifice some realism. I think we should follow a progression tree and have as much tech as it was real for each history age.

For stone age, we should have all that was used by stone age people in its time. Even so tanned leather does not actually need any metal I think it should be artificially constrained behind something else that actually needs metal. For example a barrel. I like the idea of having the barrel to need a metal hoop.

My idea is to have Cured/treated hide in the stone age and Tanned leather only available in copper age.

We would need to have some difference in appearance, for quick identification.

After that most of everything that can be done with hide can also be done with leather. Just give it more durability and protection.

I like the idea of having the same template for different materials, it gives me the impression that it simplifies the game code.

A shirt is a shirt. It can be made out of hemp fibers ( If cloth ever makes into the game), treated hide or leather. Same template but the final product will look different thanks to the texture and it will have different properties.

I see no need to have 347 different templates just to make shirts. Just have the code look up the material being used. that specifies the outcome.

[Stroam]

Yah studded was probably never a thing. The leather tunic was probably more of a thing than leather armor. There are ways of hardening leather(boiling and waxing) and it probably was more durable than the fabrics they had at the time especially as a hunter when you are constantly moving through the underbrush, scraping against trees, getting whacked by branches. I'm guessing it mainly protected from minor cuts and scrapes which before modern medicine and cleaning habits was as much of a death sentence as more serious battle wounds. I'm guessing it was also worn under metal armor to protect the wearer from the metal and to hold the metal together. I do believe that leather had many uses back in the day. As armor by its self, I seriously doubt it offered much protection at all from weapons. It just doesn't hold up to sharp weapons, isn't too difficult to stab through. Gambesons on the other hand, when you get 10+ layers of tightly woven linen together it becomes extremely difficult to pierce & cut through as well as offering padded protection from blunt trauma. 

I want furs. They don't offer much protection but they are warm and look awesome.

Quote

 

I like the idea of having the same template for different materials, it gives me the impression that it simplifies the game code.

A shirt is a shirt. It can be made out of hemp fibers ( If cloth ever makes into the game), treated hide or leather. Same template but the final product will look different thanks to the texture and it will have different properties.

I see no need to have 347 different templates just to make shirts. Just have the code look up the material being used. that specifies the outcome.

 

 "Stroam-level complicated" More support for the system I outlined.

[DMKW]

18 hours ago, tony Liberatto said:

I like the idea of having the same template for different materials, it gives me the impression that it simplifies the game code.

A shirt is a shirt. It can be made out of hemp fibers ( If cloth ever makes into the game), treated hide or leather. Same template but the final product will look different thanks to the texture and it will have different properties.

I see no need to have 347 different templates just to make shirts. Just have the code look up the material being used. that specifies the outcome.

Exactly.  I see is as a basic mechanic for turning materials into basic shapes.  Pick the item, whether it be boots, greaves, cuirass, etc.  Add your material of choice and cut it out.  Ones you have your basic shape cut out you can add whatever you want to it to cusotmize it.  I'm thinking magic thread or dragon scales or maybe the resin of some creature.  

@Stroam Fur could easily be added to the cloak slot.  It could and hopefully will be required for colder climates.  That way you could mix and match your furs with your armour and have it remain visible underneath.