OmniShift Posted December 29, 2020 Report Share Posted December 29, 2020 One of the only gripes I have about Minecraft is how the key for crouch is by default set to Shift and the key for sprint by default to Ctrl. I understand that MC can't just change that after having years of those default settings and most mods based on that as well, but I would really hope the defaults for this game can conform to that of all other games that have a crouch and sprint function by setting the formed to Ctrl and the latter to Shift (C=C, S=S). Like I said: most MC mods support the MC default, but I've encountered a problem with that where a mod will say that a function requires a crouch-click, while they actually mean Shift-click, which isn't the case anymore when you've rebound the keys like I have. I would love to prevent that issue in this game, so if I'm not the only one who has this experience: please change the default keys! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DrEngine Posted December 30, 2020 Report Share Posted December 30, 2020 (edited) I'm afraid I don't understand your point - all key controls are freely bindable to any key including Shift, Control in Settings-Controls. So whats the problem ??? If you rebound crouch key, you know it so you know every function needed crouch-click needs this new rebounded crouch click and no default one. Is it a problem to remember it ??? Edited December 30, 2020 by DrEngine Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OmniShift Posted December 30, 2020 Author Report Share Posted December 30, 2020 I know it can be rebound. I'm requesting it to be the default so it's in line with every other game (except Minecraft) to prevent the issues some of the Minecraft mods have. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hal13 Posted December 30, 2020 Report Share Posted December 30, 2020 (edited) if i understand correctly you had problems with MC mods assuming you use the default keys and therefore saying crouch+click instead of shift+click, but it didn't get rebound to the custom crouch key as they actually meant shift+click? But that's neither a MC bug, nor does it have to do anything with the default keys in neither MC nor VS, it's simply bad communication from the modcreators of these mods (not to mention every keybind in MC mods i ever used were able to be changed in the control settings). Edited December 30, 2020 by Hal13 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OmniShift Posted January 2, 2021 Author Report Share Posted January 2, 2021 Its just an issue that can easily be fixed by making the controls consistent with really every other game that has these functions. It's true that the creators of mods should make it robust to rebound keys, but I dont see why the solution should be difficult when it can also be so very easy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hal13 Posted January 3, 2021 Report Share Posted January 3, 2021 (edited) okay now i'm totally confused, please be more specific what exactly do you mean and do you suggest? Btw. there are many first person games that use "c" for crouching, had even one that defaulted crouching to "x", i'm not sure what you mean with that consistency argument. the memory hook shift for sneak works i guess? Minecraft and VS have only sneak or sprint both start with s, but sprint has rt which are in ctrl too, and while sneaking you shift your body (trying to help with more memory hooks here). And as i wrote, the controls of all mods i ever used in minecraft, where customizable in the control settings of the normal minecraft menu or the mods menu. Edited January 3, 2021 by Hal13 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OmniShift Posted January 3, 2021 Author Report Share Posted January 3, 2021 What I'm suggesting is simply to set the default for sprinting to shift and the default for crouching to Ctrl. Its true that some games have C for crouching, but none have Shift for crouching. I was browsing the wiki the other day and saw the exact problem I'm describing on https://wiki.vintagestory.at/index.php?title=Mining#Obtaining_Metal_Ores_by_Mining. It says "To determine which ores can occur in a rock type, examine a block, hold shift + H, and the handbook will provide information about what ores can appear in that rock type." But it's not shift, its sneak (which in my case is Ctrl). Even the wiki of the game is prone to this mistake, which is why I would like the solution to be very simple: fix the defaults Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hal13 Posted January 4, 2021 Report Share Posted January 4, 2021 I still don't understand your suggestion. Your problem seems to be: inconsistencies between having non default keybinds and wiki entries. Your solution is changing the default keybinds to something still not the same as in the wiki. "Fixing" (more like arbitrarily changing) the defaults for everyone (of whom, besides of you, no one seems to have your specific problem) wouldn't help with the possibly wrong entry in the Wiki (other than making it wrong for everyone), but it's a wiki, about anyone could change that false information or ask that it should be changed, perhaps the person who found it? Why did i write "possibly wrong"? It could be a bug that it's sneak+h instead of shift+h, maybe it never was intended to be changed, and as many use the default keys no one seems to have noticed or no one was bothered enough to report it. Or maybe more specific keybinds are planned and only until then this entry is kinda wrong (for people not using the defaults keybinds, afterwards one would have to change it to something like "default keybind is shift+h" in the wiki). But the way you present it here, no dev would have the chance to really notice it, as you don't ask about it, you just mention it somewhere deep in the discussion about your wish to change the default keybinds. Why? Because this suggestion will possibly only be skimmed over, because changing the changeable defaults on the whim of a single player is nothing any devteam will ever do (as long as that player isn't the CEO of their publisher or something like that, and maybe not even then), as it may piss of hundreds or thousands who use the defaults and like the defaults and would have to change their keybinds instead of that single player doing it. Further more: A suggestion should make it clear already in the opening post, what is suggested, why is it suggested, how does it benefit the game and/or the majority of players and/or how does it fix a problem, at best how can it be done too (as that makes developing a new feature or fixing a problem easier). But you start of with you having a problem with a completely other game (or more precise with the documentation of mods of that game), sure i'd suspect the majority of VS players will have played the game you mention and the majority of future new players will have too, but still. Then you suggest something to be changed for everyone, which anyone who doesn't like it, is already able to change themself and most likely, like you, will have done it already. Meaning there is no gain for anyone. Especially as the suggested change doesn't fix the problem you seem to have, as that seems to be not really a problem with the game or keybindings but with the documentation, which in this case and quite likely in case of the mods you had the same problem with, is partly way behind development and gets updated by parts of the community. And again VS has no keybind for crouching until now, only for sneaking, same as Minecraft btw (where you can only crouch with the help of a trapdoor or something similar and even that's something rather new as it was introduced in Minecraft 1.14). Sure while sneaking you are somewhere between 0.25-0.5 blocks smaller (that's about less than 10% to 25% of the body height of the character), that can hardly be called crouching, only not standing upright, maybe bending your knees, but not going on all four (which crouching would be). What to do when crouching gets introduced? It's not that unlikely as we already have sitting (and with that about the right perspective) and swimming, for example crouching could just be an animation for moving while sitting, something you can't do at this moment, or it could be swimming without water (like in minecraft). Should the defaults then be changed again for you having crouch on ctrl (which you still could change yourself)? Next the "argument": others (not even all others, not even the ones who influenced/inspired the controls the most) do it that way, do it too. If other gamedevs implement microtransactions and pay-to-win-mechanics, shall all gamedevs do that? If other gamedevs make games not bloxel based, shall no gamedev do that? If other gamedevs make keybinds unchangeable, shall all gamedevs do that? If other gamedevs join big publishers, shall all gamedevs do that? If other gamedevs stop making games, shall all gamedevs do that? If other gamedevs jump from bridges killing themself, shall all gamedevs do that? I'm sure you will recognize that last one from your parents, i do and i hate it, but it's correct, doing stuff a way only because some others do it that way is dumb. The player is intended to explore and therefore they'd run more than they'd sneak in VS, therefore it's more convenient to put run on ctrl as default, as that key can be pressed longer without inconveniences. Sure there is a person (@DrEngine) who'd like to use double tap for running and i would support the additional option (!) to do so, even though i wouldn't use it and don't see any benefit for most players. But changes to the default settings, requested from and beneftting only a tiny minority (maybe only a single player) while all others are forced to change their settings instead, shouldn't be done. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OmniShift Posted January 4, 2021 Author Report Share Posted January 4, 2021 I don't understand why you are so opposed to the idea of aligning this game's default controls to that of practically any other game. You are without a doubt greatly exaggerating the amount of people you think consider crossed controls normal, especially since Minecraft may be the only other game that has that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hal13 Posted January 5, 2021 Report Share Posted January 5, 2021 it's not about the controls being normal or not. You just don't change the default controls after people played with them for up to over 4 years. Especially if it doesn't fix anything and the people most likely coming to this game are used the same default layout. Else why stop at sneak and sprint? right click to use? not in most games. sitting? why bother, no other game has a keybind for it, just define where you can sit down and use the use key on it, like any other game does. t for chat? blasphemy! e for inventory? nononono... 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bastez Posted January 5, 2021 Report Share Posted January 5, 2021 Personally, I don't really think default keys matter in any game ( probably with the exception of WASD for movement which is so ingrained). I'm guessing that for the 1 in 10 who are left-handed, (like me) many of the keys will get re-configured anyway. So long as all keys are reconfigurable and the new bindings are reflected in any on-screen messages it doesn't really matter to me - I always regard rebinding keys as part of the set up before playing any game. Anyway, have a chuckle at my controls... Cursor keys movement R Ctrl jump R Shift sprint Numpad 0 crouch I inventory M map C Character screeen Space sit (I hate the space bar ) I have mouse buttons set up as 'normal' but use second finger for left-click and index for right-click. Freak! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DrEngine Posted January 5, 2021 Report Share Posted January 5, 2021 13 hours ago, OmniShift said: I don't understand why you are so opposed to the idea of aligning this game's default controls to that of practically any other game. You are without a doubt greatly exaggerating the amount of people you think consider crossed controls normal, especially since Minecraft may be the only other game that has that. I don't understand why you resist so heavy. All keys can be remapped so whats the problem ???!!! You can remap it to your taste. Why to insist so heavy on something what changes nothing and it's only formal issue? VS has a lot of more or less important issues waiting for change/create and bringing something new. Why waste developers time on something totally formal ???!!! For example I'm a big fan of double click walk key = run (from Minecraft of course). But I'd never want VS developers to set it as a default behaviour and spoil all other players their experience because "I want it". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OmniShift Posted January 6, 2021 Author Report Share Posted January 6, 2021 You don't have to shoot in defense mode, I'm not attacking you. I'm simply asking for a very obvious change that literally takes 30s to find in the code, change, and add to an upcoming update along with other changes. No other changes have to be put on hold, and it will help the majority of the community. @Hal13 I understand you don't like this change for the very reason I do want it (Ctrl = sprint is natural to you, just like Shift = sprint is natural to me), but please don't try to tear my suggestion down by claiming you've been playing for 4 years. You can hover over names to see when they joined. @Bastez I know this isn't a suggestion that will help everyone. Like you said: left-handed people will always have to rebind (that does make me wonder whether there are similar standards for left-handed controls, and if so: it would be really cool if you could hotswap the defaults based on your handedness, but that would be an idea that deserves its own topic). But even though my suggestion won't help everyone, I do believe it will help the majority of the community, which is why I made the topic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hal13 Posted January 7, 2021 Report Share Posted January 7, 2021 4 hours ago, OmniShift said: You don't have to shoot in defense mode, I'm not attacking you. I'm simply asking for a very obvious change that literally takes 30s to find in the code, change, and add to an upcoming update along with other changes. No other changes have to be put on hold, and it will help the majority of the community. @Hal13 I understand you don't like this change for the very reason I do want it (Ctrl = sprint is natural to you, just like Shift = sprint is natural to me), but please don't try to tear my suggestion down by claiming you've been playing for 4 years. You can hover over names to see when they joined. @Bastez I know this isn't a suggestion that will help everyone. Like you said: left-handed people will always have to rebind (that does make me wonder whether there are similar standards for left-handed controls, and if so: it would be really cool if you could hotswap the defaults based on your handedness, but that would be an idea that deserves its own topic). But even though my suggestion won't help everyone, I do believe it will help the majority of the community, which is why I made the topic. At this point i'm not sure, if you are trolling, unable to express the real problem or unable to understand reason. Obviously you don't really read the answers you get. I never said I played the game for over 4 years, i said it's out and people have been playing it for over 4 years. Btw. all players who bought the game via itch.io or humble bundle don't need a forum account to play, therefore the time a person joined the forum says nothing about how much time the person has played. I never said ctrl for running would be "natural" for me, I just stress over and over it does not help with the problem you describe and it makes no sense to change it now after being in use for more than 4 years, without anyone (besides of you) having a problem with it. The suggestion helps nearly no one, at best! Everyone is already able to change these keybinds, and even you, who seem to be the only person who complains about it (at this point it's not even possible to call it critique anymore), have changed it to your liking in your settings. Therefore it doesn't help you, because it changes nothing for you, It doesn't help many others too (and with certainty not "the majority", you are not the majority, neither am I but obviously more people are against this change than for it at this point), because most new players will be used to minecraft controls and every player at this moment, who doesn't want to use the defaults, like you, has changed their controls already. Therefore only people, that test every version with a new clean installation, would benefit from the change IF their prefered keybinds align with the change you want, but IF that was the case it would have been an issue before (as there are several release candidates per version, with 1.14.5 being the exception). Your suggestion fixes no problem, as I wrote several times now, if you find a wrong keybind in the wiki, something you claim you want to fix, changing the default controls ingame, does not even adress the problem, as the problem is not ingame, especially if you change the controls further away from the entry in the wiki, as that entry was only wrong for people who did change away from the default keybinds before and after the change it would be wrong for everyone. To make the point easier to understand: in the wiki is written shift+h for infos on the block you point at. At this moment, if you use the defaults that's correct, but you found out that it's actually sneak+h. Therefore you want to change the default sneak key to ctrl. The wiki entry will not change magically to anything other than shift+h just because of that, but now it's wrong for everyone. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tyron Posted January 7, 2021 Report Share Posted January 7, 2021 Reminder to everyone to follow the forum rules. Be kind. Thank you. Since the point has been made clearly on both sides already, I take the freedom to lock this topic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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