Jochanaan Fair-Schulz

I just want to give this post attention again, especially with in-game rivers on the way. IRL, Icebreakers are just a forward projection of the ships keel; People, especially in the northern hemisphere, have been using them for millennia, modern day ex: Expanding on what I said above, icebreakers are basically just rams. Historically they would just be wood with a metal wedge on the end. I agree that copper would be too weak, but bronze ship rams were common place in antiquity both for clearing obstacles in the water and for naval warfare (not the main point here but letting the ram do damage based on speed to entities and other vessels would be neat). That said, for the sake of realism, it is important that the effectiveness of the ice breaker be tied to rowing (after the initial impact, the rate at which the ice breaker clears blocks under sail power should naturally decrease, so, as is the case in real life, breaking the ice with speed requires passengers to spend energy rowing with paddles). A second element to this, which is really about how far people would like to take the simulation, is considering the density of the ice vs the mass of the boat. Ice formed in Spring and Autumn is not going to be as solid as ice in the deep Winter (and that's before even talking about the differences between ice sheets formed over lakes and rivers vs Sea ice). What I'm getting at isn't about adding a ton of crazy calculations, but rather that, once the temperature in a region goes below a certain level, the icebreaker on our current boat should cease to work until the temperatures rise again: It does not make sense for a vessel of our size to have the physical ability to break deep Winter ice; there is a reason that commercial icebreaker ships are massive. However, if mass is the main problem, then there is always the option of a bigger boat. Bigger boats than the long ship type vessel we have now existed during the medieval era: like the Cog and Caravel, to say nothing of Carracks. Having some optional upgrades to the current boat model (say adding a fore and/or aft castle or cabin) would not only provide more storage space and attachment points, but also leave us with a ship just credibly big enough to, with a little elbow grease, smash its way through even deep winter ice sheets.

This has some real *scientist about to be burned at the stake for "witchcraft"* energy

mic drop moment Yes, I agree. The solution should be some kind of Jonas tech. Its just, presently, the way things progress is that one day we go to bed as a medieval peasant, then wake up the next knowing how to throw together a box of rubbish that can rip holes in space-time. Having a little bit more of a wind up would not only make more sense from a game play pov but also from the perspective of logic. Having some "primitive" Jonas tech that's geared more to the mid game, not only addresses the exact problem that we are discussing, but is just necessary in general to set the precedent for late game contraptions. Linking the power for these mid-game techs to rot beasts drops (of whatever kind you personally find lore coherent given that its is already established that their bodies contain Temporal Gears and killing them partially restores a player's sanity) is just following the logic of Jonas tech as we have seen it everywhere else. That I think this would also kill two birds with one stone by making dungeon diving more useful in the average play-through makes it an even more appealing route (not because I even want anymore combat related content, but because, as we have established, it is coming. Story and Procedural dungeons are going from a sideshow to a main act in the ecosystem of VS gameplay loops, and to work well those require a real mechanical reason for engagement with that content, or at least to not have engagement so actively disincentivised; Otherwise, why even spend the time and energy to add these in the first place, why add them as The Story? For the record, I really do like the narrative of the story, I just find it unfortunate how much it's design conflicts with the rest of VS, and believe that part of that story reaching its full potential is about working in tandem with, and not against, the mechanical logic of the actual game for which it is meant to be the story).

Or instead of getting some esoteric unexplained loot droop from monsters, take the concept of "temporal fibers" and add it to a weaving gameplay loop as some sort of late game material. That way there's also some sort of reasonable explanation for how those fibers came to exist(the player utilized technology to make them), instead of the player being left to wonder how a horrible rot-infested creature can produce something so valuable. As for stopping spawns with dreamcatchers and candles...as a mod it works, but not for the base game. Stuff like that enters the "generic RPG fantasy" realm, and if it were really that easy to keep the monsters away, NPCs would be surrounding their homes with handicrafts instead of building strong fortifications. I'll just point out that according to the internal logic of the game's setting having rot beasts spawn inside people's houses doesn't make sense either. Also, temporal gears are also highly valuable drops (its never insinuated that the monsters make what they drop, but rather the drops are what they are made out of). Do temporal candles and dream catchers represent the perfect the solution... maybe and maybe not (it is not about implementing those aesthetics specifically). There is a problem with players being presented with a problem and no solutions until 2/3 of the way through the game. VS is too big of an experience to leave the player in limbo for this long. There needs to be at least a mid game way of dealing with the temporal rifts and mob spawning; these should obviously be much weaker than late game solutions, but a challenge can be fun, whereas forced helplessness is just annoying.

Having blocks lose temporal stability during storms could work if there were any effective way to counter it. One way would be to have different types of blocks have different levels of "temporal insulation" : basically cheap blocks (dirt, logs, etc..) could phase during weak storms, but stronger materials (cobble, wooden boards, etc..) would remain solid, with the highest intensity storms only being insulated against by the most complex blocks (Ashlar or brick for example). The only downside to this is that it would probably lead to people always using the same materials for the maximum insulation, so I think that a different approach would work better. To steer back to thinking about combat in this thread, a big problem for the combat system is the lack of material reward that comes from engaging with it. Vintage Story is a survival game at its core, with the efficient use of resources and avoiding waste being drilled into the players mind at every opportunity; the cost and danger of engaging in combat with rot beasts makes it a late game extravagance rather than a practical option for most of a play-through. With the exclusion of temporal gears (which are already rare and also become most useful only at the end game) all we get from fighting monsters are bone arrows or flax fibers (which we can produce on our own without the risks of combat, and in much larger quantity). My thinking is that the drops of rot beasts should be tweaked, and directly tied to crafting solutions for temporal instability/storms. Instead of just dropping regular flax fibers, the specific drop could be "temporal fibers" (or insert any other name you think is better). No matter what the specific name or appearance of the drop, it should be an ingredient for crafting place-able items that raise the temporal stability or prevent rot beasts from spawning within a small area; to use the example of temporal fibers, it could be used to make dream catchers you can place in your rooms to stop monsters from spawning there during storms or to craft a consumable candle that raises the stability around it while it burns. The specifics would need fiddling to be balanced, but creating a material benefit from combat would make it a more viable choice early on and set up the late game developments with Jonas tech/dungeon diving; combat wouldn't be an easy option, or one that players are forced to make, but it would no longer be a wasteful one either.

I absolutely agree, just having a custom class option from the start would be a terrible idea. The class system is part of the intended experience. What I mean by "new game plus" is just that once someone has gone through the entire story or tech tree in a world (which usually takes a long time) the intended way, they could have the option to play in an unintended way in their next. It is essentially a choice to "game ruin" oneself, but not until you're experienced enough to know that is what you are choosing. Honestly, the game doesn't need this, but its the only way I could imagine implementing something like the OP is suggesting without just breaking the class system.

Maybe when the in-game story (or tech tree) is complete there could be a sort of new game plus where we can make custom classes (as in mix and match different class traits or craft-ables together). It would make for a meaningful reward, and only come into play for once players are experienced enough with the game to know their preferences.

Traps fit the setting and tone of VS spot-on (honestly better than chargeing in to melee, imo). A great addition would be adding more trap focused blocks to the game: Having place-able spikes alone would offer so much to pitfalls, but also to countering enemies that can climb our walls. I was always fascinated by the possibilities of creating traps with redstone in Minecraft, but the mechanics of the game never really incentivized that kind of play (not to mention it was woefully underutilized by the devs in their dungeons). I'm not saying that we need a redstone equivalent, but it always seemed a shame to me how Minecraft and its successors never explored how they could do combat differently. I don't think that combat, or fleshing out that system, has to be just a question of abilities and gear; that would significantly improve what is there, but it would also not maximize the potential of the game. VS, like Minecraft, has its building (survival) side and then its combat (conquest) side, and the two are not fully integrated yet, so they end up fighting for resources. Currently, building competes with combat for much of the game: homesteading is about building barriers to manage danger and adventuring is about crossing barriers to seek danger for reward, but the resources and equipment we gain by homesteading are far more valuable than anything we gain by combat, not-to-mention more likely to be lost in fights (By comparison, building and exploring feed into each other much more mechanically: we explore to find different materials to build with, and we build roads, bridges, boats and canals to better explore). Pit traps and archery towers are some of the only places were the combat and building systems are working together in synergy (yeah it can feel cheesy, but that's because it is such an effective combination of systems, for which the enemy design is not always optimized). Temporal storms are actually a step in the right direction, since having a threat that cuts right through all our built barriers, for which the only long-term solution is Jonas tech powered with temporal gears, gives fighting rust mobs and dungeon diving a practical purpose: fighting gives us materials to build better utilities. The only issue is that we access these very late into the game, so early and mid game we are left with few solutions but to wait and hide. Temporal storms (and these challenges in general) are very clever incentives to experiment, but, unfortunately, without a lot of options; ex. I like to set up a field of pit kilns outside my home before a storm, the rust beasts wander into them and I loot them after it ends (it doesn't actually accomplish much, but it feels meaningful to try). No other games in the world have the potential for creativity that Minecraft and VS have, and VS is the only one that I think would be willing to bring that creativity to building for combat/combat through building: Crafting bear traps and tripwires, Mining to trigger cave-ins or floods on our attackers, Building trap mazes and siege engines (Ballistas and Catapults) to fight hordes or bosses... the potentials are really endless.

Being able to "chisel" the leaves of a Bonsai tree, or just sculpt hedges in general, would be pretty neat.

For anyone who is interested, my thoughts on this topic have been deeply influenced by a series of video essays about Minecraft by a games critic on Youtube called Whitelight. Though it doesn't have anything directly to do with Vintage Story, it's fascinating to see just how well the points and suggestions put forward reflect improvements that VS has made on Minecraft. I don't agree with every point, but his arguments are very well reasoned (don't worry this isn't CriticalDrinker type stuff). Watching them with VS in mind, I think that these do a great job of explaining why I believe VS is so brilliant, and why I think the road ahead has both so much potential and risk, especially as more dungeon content gets introduced. "A Serious Critique of Minecraft" - (July 12, 2019) "A Serious Improvement for Minecraft" - (Oct 4, 2019) "The Perfect Update for Minecraft" - (Nov 15, 2019) "Another Serious Critique of Minecraft" - (May 18, 2024) - I don't know if i'm allowed to post video links here, so there are the titles - The Fourth video, in addition to being the most recent, is also the most important in my opinion (though they are all quite interesting). Each is self contained, so watching them out of order doesn't matter.

A lot of combat mods sacrifice the mysterious feel of the setting in favor of power. I think that any additions should keep the current systems in place, and just build on them; specifically, I hope that the space between fight and flight will get filled out before the next round of dungeons comes out. Right now we either run away from mobs or kill them (which kind of robs the more eldritch ones of their sense of danger if we end up butchering them by the dozen with pointy sticks). Two games that I think handle this dilemma very well are Subnautica and Dead Space; while offensive options exist in these games, they tend to be indirect, focused on slowing down the enemy or even scaring them off; This way the player getting stronger doesn't automatically make the enemies feel less dangerous, in fact it underscores how out of our league they really are. Somebody mentioned pocket sand, and I would honestly like that (though salt and garlic might be more in theme here ). Having weapons or other tools where the focus is on knocking groups of attackers back, or pulling them toward us, would increase the skill ceiling without turning us into demi-God's or intruding on the play of those who aren't interested; that's the main issue I think with combat right now, we reach the height of proficiency long before we reach the highest tiers of gear, which makes the system feel more stagnant than it is: Right now we have access from the get to knives/improvised weapons (weak melee), the spear (mid-range melee or projectile), then we get the bow (long range projectile), we get the Falx with copper (short range melee), then finally we get access to the explosives (throw able area of effect), and from then on upgrading is about increasing the numbers on these rather than giving us new ways to use them. Even the ruined weapons and legacy swords are just stronger versions of options we already have. Filling out the other possible use cases or creating branching "gimmick" weapons would maintain a sense of momentum without turning into an arms race to get God's personal flyswatter. The current system is nearly there, just not quite yet.

Not in this thread. If you go back to the original post that started this and read through it, then you will realize that we are actually all on the same side here. VS is not a combat game, and it would be a direct downgrade to the game if that is what it became. The problem that the OP, I, and others have been trying to bring attention to is that Dungeon diving and Boss Battles are a major part of Vintage Story's future: Procedural Dungeons is one of the features headlining the 1.22 roadmap, 1.23 is going to be another Story quest (all dungeons so far, so why would we assume that is going to change), and then there are the endless fixes for the above and the next 5 story chapters that will probably trickle out over the next couple of years; that's just the stuff we know about. Until now, this has been a very minor part of VS. There have only been a few dungeons in the game, centered around the first two story chapters, and each ending with a single boss. However, If you bother to look at the road-map and read the dev logs, that is about to change in a big way. It is what the developers have decided on for their personal vision of the game, and I wish them the best of luck with it, which is why it is important to get some clarification on who this new gameplay loop is actually for. For those who don't like combat, either aren't interested in it or just prefer other solutions, ask yourselves if dungeon diving is something you'll ever do, aside from once or twice to explore. So, this is not for you then. What about combat players? Well, you are over the moon, but that's also because you are probably already using a combat mod (a minority of players). !!!Why is a base game play loop, which is going to tie down a ton of development resources for years to come, being made if it only appeals to people with specific mods!!! An imaginary combat overhaul doesn't need to steal attention from the development of your personal fixation, because this is already doing it, while making even less sense. While the Dungeons that Anego has released so far have included some puzzles, they still rely heavily on mobs (read: combat) as the main source of challenge/threat. This makes them broadly unappealing to players who dislike combat. Players who "like" combat don't tend to be satisfied with the base game system, so they use mods. News flash, I don't actually have a problem with the combat of the game as I go about my daily work: exploring, farming, building, and mining; It just also leaves me with no desire to go further, and follow it into the few dungeons that currently exist. That feels fine right now, it's only a fraction of the game, but, as we have established, that is changing; What is so weird is that it feels more and more like I need to be getting combat mods in order to experience the game as intended. Minecraft wasted years of development putting in dungeons without every really knowing how to make them interesting. The loot they gave was pointless (you can get a chest full of diamonds with a few hours of mining, and eventually you don't need more copies of "Cat"), the puzzles could never last 10 seconds, and the combat system was not interesting enough to take center stage. Like in Minecraft, the VS combat system was never meant to take the spot light. It was meant as a source of threat in the background, and it does that job well enough. There were so many different, far more interesting areas, into which MC could have put its resources (as VS has shown), but instead they gave into the genre convention of "dungeon diving" as the central gameplay loop in survival games; It's taken them ten years since to get that system from utterly pointless to... mediocre: in a truly cruel twist of fate, combat is the only system that I would say is now deeper in Minecraft than in VS. Now, while I have more faith in the devs at Anego, I see them flirting with the same identity crisis. I personally don't think that VS needs dungeon diving. It doesn't play to the strengths of the game, or represent the broad interests of the community. However, if they have to implement it, I at least want it to be done well. If they insist on keeping combat as the main threat then that system has to be brought up to snuff (I'm not talking about combos or other nonsense, I want creative solutions that preserve the horror like in "Amnesia: The Dark Descent," "Soma," or "Deadspace;" something better than just our current 4 flavors of bonking Cthulu, and don't tell me it can't be done). Stealth is an even more bare bones system than combat, but that could also fit the bill with a decent makeover. Honestly the solution that would be the most impressive would be to focus down on puzzles (let us mine and craft a solution in the mining and crafting game instead of artificially blocking us out of those systems, and forcing us to engage in the much less interesting combat mechanics). Some of the back and forth in this thread is really pointless; we seem to be agreeing on 95% of everything, but still acting like we're not. I don't know what route will get the best results, there are those which I personally prefer, but what I know from looking at the past is that it would be better for everyone if Vintage Story picks a lane sooner rather than later; that is what this thread began on, and should stay about.

Respectfully, This is a decent argument that I will seriously consider. But, this is a needless jab. You're basically saying that, "Yeah, there are people who disagree with me, but they're not real enough fans to have an opinion." A combat update may or may not be the best way to address some peoples concerns with the game. However, it is a fact that there are people who want to discuss that possibility, and they should be allowed to do so without gate keeping.

Its 100% possible for the devs to develop combat in addition to working on other aspects of VS. Case in point, I don't think the berry bush rework is nearly as important as adding the next story chapter, but I am still excited for both. This doesn't have to be a zero sum game. Also, while I agree that it is brought up a bit more than necessary, the fact that a combat overhaul is such a common suggestion that gets regular attention whenever it shows up is evidence that it is a real issue for a substantial portion of the community (not for just for "combat players," or "new players," but for many Vintage Story players). I think that it is more productive to look for solutions to that problem than to get bogged down debating if we should even talk about it.

I am very optimistic that there are solutions in the works. As the devs implement status effects (like poison, slow, etc...) and add a greater variety of weapons into the game, things will balance out. There is just set to be a pinch at the moment as the amount of combat focused content being added (story chapters and dungeons) is outpacing the depth of the current combat system.

This is one of the best posts on this topic that I have ever read. It really seems to me that when anybody brings up a combat overhaul, or points out that combat is an under baked system currently, that it gets shot down by people saying, "combat isn't the point of VS" or "Not every game needs to be dark souls." To be clear, I agree. One of things that really started sucking the fun out of Minecraft for me was how much development of the game is focused around dungeon crawling and fighting, rather than really expanding on the innovations they made for building and crafting mechanics. What makes VS the better game today, and I would say one that is pushing the envelope of game design further in the survival genre, is how it took the mechanics that MC pioneered and has expanded them. So, it should be fair to point out that VS is starting to fall into the same pit-holes. Vintage story is not dark souls, and I don't ever want it to be; which is why some of the decisions being made right now are so weird. Obviously, it's the developers game, so they can do whatever they want. It doesn't take away from the good parts (and there are really good parts that the devs are constantly improving), but that shouldn't be an excuse to dismiss criticism either. The combat system in vintage story is good enough for the early game. Being awkward and slow is exactly how it should feel for us as hunter-gathers squaring up against foxes and bears. The problem right now is that the system does not expand with the increasing level of threats we deal with. Yes, we get higher tiers of armor and weapons, but those are improvements on the same options rather than new ones. We have a combat system made for hunting being applied to fighting inter-dimensional horrors. If the goal is for us to run away, and find ways of avoiding combat, then that is fine. That is the solution that most of the community has taken, because even the tools that we are given for combat (armor and weapons tiers) are about enduring rather than developing the system: we take less damage, we deal more, but we don't play differently (not to mention our enemies are hitting harder and surviving longer anyway). I would honestly be fine with this, and even like it thematically, if it wasn't becoming more apparent that the devs intend for us to be running toward the fights. The story quests in VS are combat based. They are centered around boss battles. That isn't something that is avoidable, unless you leave that entire section of the game untouched. The gameplay of the story, and the dungeons, which are spaces that players are expected to want to go, is centered on the combat system. When I engage with these parts of the game, and most of the community as well it seems, it is for the story and not the fights. That is not a lethal flaw, but it is still a flaw. Even the people who don't want an over haul to combat seem to be coming at it from the angle of disliking the combat so much that they want it to remain as avoidable as possible; that is not a recommendation, but it is a terrible contradiction given the way things are headed. It is not wrong to insist that if the game wants us to seek out combat scenarios then it has to be a system that invites engagement. It should be fun and/or interesting, including for those who don't particularly care about it. "The rising tide lifts all ships." (Consider, if you don't want an overhaul because you "don't like combat": Maybe if the combat was better, then you would like it more). I see a growing disconnect between the apparent intentions of the dev team, and the actual dynamics of play that are being created in-game. This is the best time to get a handle on the situation, before the next 6 chapters of the story and the procedural dungeons come out. I respect their talent and inventiveness on this project too much to do them the disservice of not pointing out a serious issue in its foundation. VS is still, and will always be a great game. I love it to bits. So, those are my honest thoughts.

As another note: dynamic color change for character models already exists to show snow accumulation. So, there already is a basis in the code for letting colors change on the character voxels, it's just now about making it purposely available to players with dye.

Not to go full punk rock, but tattoos and piercings would add a lot to Seraph customization (especially for those who don't use/like facial hair). They would probably just be an aesthetic option during character creation, or maybe, for piercings specifically, an equitable item of clothing for the head/face. The earliest evidence of tattoos goes back to 3,000 BCE with Otzi, the "Iceman," and, though they were less common in Medieval Europe, Christian pilgrims were known to mark their hands and faces with holy symbols: so they would not be out of place in-game. A much harder way to implement this, though one I think VS is uniquely capable of doing, would be to let players draw on our Seraphs in game. There is already a voxel based system for chiseling, painting, and even for doing cave drawings with charcoal or chalk. It would make sense to let us draw on the voxels our characters' model with different colored materials (I guess that I am also suggesting body-paint...sorry). It would probably be too much if that was automatically permanent, so the initial paint should wash off when our character gets wet. In order to make the mark permanent, we could use a needle (crafted out of small bones using a knife) to tap on the voxels of paint that we want to keep. After all, early tattoos were made using just charcoal and bone needles. This is not a vital thing to add, just an idea. Unlike any other survival game, VS has the feel of where a mechanic like this would fit. I can imagine people doing some really creative things with it, and/or just giving themselves freckles.

I'm right handed, but the idea of this feature really warms my heart

Temperature was really confusing to me early on. Now that I understand how it works with rooms, and indoor vs outdoor spaces, it feels like a solid system, but definitely un-intuitive for a new player. That said, adding in a fully dynamic spatial-temp gradient would probably be more trouble than it's worth to code. A status to communicate the effect, if any, of the Outside Temperature on our Seraph could make the current system much more readable. For example, if Body Temp is not changing, then it is Stable; if Body Temp is getting lower, then it is Decreasing; and, if Body Temp is getting higher, then it is Increasing; Because, right now, it seems like the only way to gauge temperature change is by already knowing how different systems interact. Being able to quickly see what is happening to our body temp, and hover over it to see why ("Nearby heat source" or "Insufficient clothing") would peel back the curtain in a good way.

Having a walking stick in your offhand for a slight movement boost (like 5-10%) would be both useful and really nice looking. Honestly, walking sticks would fit in so well with the feel of the game that I'm second guessing myself if they are already there and I'm just missing the obvious. The crafting recipe could be as simple as two sticks and a knife. Maybe a later game version could be a hiking staff, adding leather/bone for a grip or a metal ferrule on the bottom. If they really want to lean into it then the more advanced staff could have space to attach trinkets or utility (gems, a shepherd's crook, or a lantern for example). That second paragraph is just theory crafting on my part. All I'm really angling for is a walking stick for those long journeys on foot.