Temperature Resistances and Adding Heatstroke / Heat Exhaustion

[Thorfinn]

Maybe I misunderstood. 

If all you are talking about is the body temperature ("C" screen) going up to whatever is considered critical, and, say, the margins of the screen start going dark, like the tunnel vision that starts setting in with hyperthermia, and start taking damage slowly, and all you have to do to remedy it is go jump in a lake, OK. That's about the same level of edge-of-your-seat excitement as hypothermia...

[Maelstrom]

Perhaps if the hypo/hyper thermia is too extreme for too long there's an enforced sleep on the spot in which damage is applied for the duration of the sleep any nasty beasties in the area get a chance to beat on your sorry butt.  That would make temperature management much higher on the priority list.

[Krougal]

3 hours ago, Maelstrom said:

Perhaps if the hypo/hyper thermia is too extreme for too long there's an enforced sleep on the spot in which damage is applied for the duration of the sleep any nasty beasties in the area get a chance to beat on your sorry butt.  That would make temperature management much higher on the priority list.

but is it fun?

[Echo Weaver]

I don't think a hyperthermia mechanic needs to be super difficult, just as hypothermia isn't super difficult. What makes survival interesting and challenging isn't so much that any individual mechanic is incredibly difficult, but that the sum total of all of them is a challenge.

I am just finishing out a pretty rough first-year winter, and I have to say that going around in the snow, digging up roots because my grain ran out and then having to scamper home because I'm freezing to death and about to starve is the most immersive survival experience I've ever played.

I'm sure in future games I will manage my first season better, but I really appreciate the barely-surviving experience of not really knowing what I'm doing. When I get more experience, I won't be able to go back to this kind of tension.

[LadyWYT]

14 hours ago, Asreal said:

I think personally hyperthermia should be just as punishing as hypothermia: a gradual heating up and then slow damage over time, but that's just my preference. There is currently lots of time for the player to react to hypothermia and warm up, even well before they start taking damage, so hyperthermia can operate the same way. I just don't want people wearing their finest furs in the desert lol, unless they plan on swimming or drinking or hiding from the sun a lot

Honestly, I thought about going for some kind of penalty to the player health pool(the opposite of nutrition bars, essentially), or ticking damage similar to being too cold. I ended up opting against both, since neither seemed like it would be particularly enjoyable or satisfying to deal with. In regards to cold lethality...being too cold for too long will kill you, similar to starvation eventually killing you as well, but both are easily avoided in the game with the most basic of planning. I don't really see an overheating mechanic being that much different.

The reason I opted for the healing rate penalty, or more preferably, a movement speed penalty, is that those are effects that are negligible most of the time, but will catch up to you quickly with the consequences if you're too reckless. Healing rate, I do believe, affects the effectiveness of healing items, so a lower healing rate means that you not only need more poultices to heal the same amount, but you might not be able to heal fast enough to stay alive in the heat of battle should you require healing. Armor helps mitigate damage, of course, but further amplifies the healing penalties the more of it you wear(and unequipping it to heal leaves you exposed). In regards to the movement speed penalty...it's just enough to not be much of a hindrance to a player going about their daily business, but that quickly changes when a wolf, bear, or something much worse start chasing you. Suddenly, you're not able to outrun danger, and if you don't have adequate equipment to defend yourself with then you're probably going to die. Especially so if the overheat penalty takes a couple of moments to wear off, similar to how it takes a few moments to warm back up if you're too cold.

[Hammerweld]

Another way to approach this is to have a buff that occurs when you're at the optimal temperature. So instead of punishing players you reward them. Taking a dip when its hot out and getting a nice "refreshed" buff would be cool, no?

Tangentially, I would also like a visual/diagetic way of knowing its hot out, like with a vignette or something? The only way I know it's hot out is when my plants suffer or my food spoils faster. OH maybe we could get those weird wibbly wobbles in the distance when it gets hot, like mirages.

Edited November 9, 2024 by Hammerweld

[Echo Weaver]

I admit that I'm less receptive to a mechanic that makes things easier. The brutal hard-coreness of survival is a major part of the fun.

[Thorfinn]

14 hours ago, Hammerweld said:

Another way to approach this is to have a buff that occurs when you're at the optimal temperature. So instead of punishing players you reward them. Taking a dip when its hot out and getting a nice "refreshed" buff would be cool, no?

But wouldn't you also get the same buff just living in the Goldilocks zone?

[Hammerweld]

3 hours ago, Thorfinn said:

But wouldn't you also get the same buff just living in the Goldilocks zone?

Ah, I was unaware such a place existed. There's parts of the map that don't get winters/summers?

[Thorfinn]

Wasn't quite what I was getting at. I meant that if the morning is too cool, and afternoon is too warm, some point in the day is just right.

[Maelstrom]

@Thorfinn Yes there is a goldilocks zone where it's not incredibly hot and no winter.  Some crops (like rye) have to be planted at the right time, but farming can be done year round for almost all crops in that zone.  It's about 30 degrees latitude, iirc.

[Maelstrom]

On 11/8/2024 at 5:03 PM, Krougal said:

but is it fun?

That wasn't exactly my point.  I was offering a suggestion to make a heat mechanic work without adding another health bar.  I also added some additional incentive for not letting extreme heat conditions persist too long.

Personally, I'd find what I described fun.  But I'm a masochist that likes overcoming difficult challenges and adding additional consequences for freezing too long would be good imo.  Currently freezing can be cheesed by poultices and putting up with the frosty screen.  Adding a fainting mechanic for staying in the cold too long would force managing personal temperature more.

[LadyWYT]

38 minutes ago, Maelstrom said:

Adding a fainting mechanic for staying in the cold too long would force managing personal temperature more.

 

On 11/8/2024 at 2:40 PM, Maelstrom said:

Perhaps if the hypo/hyper thermia is too extreme for too long there's an enforced sleep on the spot in which damage is applied for the duration of the sleep any nasty beasties in the area get a chance to beat on your sorry butt.  That would make temperature management much higher on the priority list.

One thing I really like about this suggestion, aside from the fact it increases the threat level of being too hot/too cold without feeling unfair; you could easily reuse that same mechanic for drinking too much alcohol in one sitting. Of course, for blackouts to even matter for alcohol, you'd also need to give players a reason to drink it, since as it currently stands there's really no reason to indulge outside of roleplaying. One idea I had on that was allowing a stiff drink or two to enable a player to shrug off some damage. Doing that would allow a more interesting option to pursue in the early game for defense, before one has good armor and weapons, while still being relevant into the late game.

[Echo Weaver]

2 hours ago, LadyWYT said:

One idea I had on that was allowing a stiff drink or two to enable a player to shrug off some damage. Doing that would allow a more interesting option to pursue in the early game for defense, before one has good armor and weapons, while still being relevant into the late game.

I've seen variants of that mechanic used in other games, and I really like it. It's fun to make alcohol, but I'm definitely a player who needs to have a reason to do it.

[Thorfinn]

6 hours ago, Maelstrom said:

@Thorfinn Yes there is a goldilocks zone where it's not incredibly hot and no winter.  Some crops (like rye) have to be planted at the right time, but farming can be done year round for almost all crops in that zone.  It's about 30 degrees latitude, iirc.

Interesting. In my current 1.20, mostly default start (so roughly 45th parallel?) turnips, rye, parsnips, carrots and cabbages are all heat stressed, and it's only June 8. Rye and turnips I expected. Or at least were not a complete surprise, though I don't recall not getting in at least the first crop of cabbage before it gets too hot. I'm not using Freedom Units, so maybe the cabbages think celsius is as silly as I do? The others were new to me. I wandered for a good solid day before settling down, but was mostly following valleys, and think I was headed mostly northeast, but I would not swear to it.

 

5 hours ago, LadyWYT said:

Of course, for blackouts to even matter for alcohol, you'd also need to give players a reason to drink it, since as it currently stands there's really no reason to indulge outside of roleplaying.

After the discussion on sleep, you might find this surprising, but I think it would be cool if a stiff drink helped with stability. You then have to balance caving a little longer against falling off ladders or into deep holes. It also more or less gates it to around July at earliest.

Edited November 11, 2024 by Thorfinn

[LadyWYT]

16 minutes ago, Thorfinn said:

After the discussion on sleep, you might find this surprising, but I think it would be cool if a stiff drink helped with stability. You then have to balance caving a little longer against falling off ladders or into deep holes. It also more or less gates it to around July at earliest.

Sounds cool to me. You could probably even have a choice of brewing a beverage using a temporal gear in order to greatly lessen the more serious side effects, or just use normal alcohol to slow down the loss of stability temporarily at the cost of some coordination(and the blackout risk if you overdo it). The more potent the beverage, the greater the effect.

Or speaking of sleep--drinking until you pass out would certainly be an immersive way to pass the temporal storms, if you've no interest in dealing with the monsters. You'd just need to make sure that you're in a safe spot before drinking that much.

[Maelstrom]

12 hours ago, Thorfinn said:

Interesting. In my current 1.20, mostly default start (so roughly 45th parallel?) turnips, rye, parsnips, carrots and cabbages are all heat stressed, and it's only June 8. Rye and turnips I expected. Or at least were not a complete surprise, though I don't recall not getting in at least the first crop of cabbage before it gets too hot. I'm not using Freedom Units, so maybe the cabbages think celsius is as silly as I do? The others were new to me. I wandered for a good solid day before settling down, but was mostly following valleys, and think I was headed mostly northeast, but I would not swear to it.

What I meant by goldilocks zone is that farming year round is possible (unlike the north) and not as restrictive (due to heat stress) as the south.  There are still times in which plants will get heat stressed, but it's generally the most lenient zone to farm in.

[Hammerweld]

16 hours ago, Echo Weaver said:

I've seen variants of that mechanic used in other games, and I really like it. It's fun to make alcohol, but I'm definitely a player who needs to have a reason to do it.

Same here. I'm a regular teetotaler so it would have to impart a serious buff for me to put up with the effects. Unless they plan on adding some kind of mental system like Rimworld, it would have to give a boost to melee and some damage mitigation. And a warming effect, of course, for those cold winter nights.

[Echo Weaver]

These options seem appealing and thematic for alcohol:

1. Shrug off a bit of damage

2. Warming effect

3. Mitigates some loss of temporal stability

Deep mining would be safer, though more challenging, while drunk. A stiff drink could keep you from freezing to death for long enough to get someplace warm.

The damage one seems a bit more difficult to visualize, since intoxication should make combat more difficult, but I could see a useful mechanic in there. More like a way to survive while escaping than to carry on the fight.

[LadyWYT]

6 hours ago, Echo Weaver said:

The damage one seems a bit more difficult to visualize, since intoxication should make combat more difficult, but I could see a useful mechanic in there. More like a way to survive while escaping than to carry on the fight.

I think it would be of most use in a melee fight. The wobbling around(assuming that settings haven't been tinkered with to remove drunk visuals) will make aiming any sort of ranged weapon more difficult. The other main drawback that I see is that the damage mitigation effect should be fairly short, and the drunken status longer in order to balance things out. Then the risk becomes blacking out in the middle of a fight should you keep drinking to keep the damage resistance up.

Now of course, if one wanted to a be real stinker regarding alcohol and realism...give the player an addiction to the stuff if they drink too much, too often. Then there can be a debuff that lasts until they either indulge in more alcohol, or wait long enough(several in-game days) to break the craving.

[Thorfinn]

18 minutes ago, LadyWYT said:

I think it would be of most use in a melee fight. The wobbling around(assuming that settings haven't been tinkered with to remove drunk visuals) will make aiming any sort of ranged weapon more difficult

It's probably true that being drunk is worse for missiles than melee, but as any bouncer can tell you, there's no fight easier than one against someone who's been drinking.

[Hammerweld]

23 hours ago, Echo Weaver said:

These options seem appealing and thematic for alcohol:

1. Shrug off a bit of damage

2. Warming effect

3. Mitigates some loss of temporal stability

Deep mining would be safer, though more challenging, while drunk. A stiff drink could keep you from freezing to death for long enough to get someplace warm.

The damage one seems a bit more difficult to visualize, since intoxication should make combat more difficult, but I could see a useful mechanic in there. More like a way to survive while escaping than to carry on the fight.

Ah, getting drunk and mining, the DRG Experience.

[Thorfinn]

DRG?

[LadyWYT]

3 hours ago, Thorfinn said:

DRG?

Deep Rock Galactic, I assume. Space dwarves.

[Hammerweld]

On 11/13/2024 at 2:34 PM, LadyWYT said:

Deep Rock Galactic, I assume. Space dwarves.

That is correct.