Passive+

[TheAmethyst]

A new mode between passive and aggressive. Similar to passive except drifters/locusts/etc would retaliate when attacked just like how animals do in passive mode.

[LadyWYT]

I dunno, there's already a "passive gameplay" mode in the form of Homo Sapiens, if you set animal aggression to neutral. The drawback is that you'll miss all of the lore content playing that mode.

In regards to the game's story, having animals be neutral isn't much of a stretch, but the lore and NPCs make a point of warning how unnatural and dangerous the monsters are. It would be rather immersion-breaking to keep hearing accounts of all of these supernatural, bloodthirsty monstrosities that go bump in the dark...only to have those you encounter ignore you completely until you decide you want to engage in combat.

Now I am aware that not everyone cares about story immersion, and not everyone likes combat either. However, I think a better option for a "passive mode", outside of mods that is, is perhaps heavily restricting monster spawns instead. Perhaps drifters would only spawn one or two at a time, and only during temporal storms or periods of high rift activity(minimum) if conditions allow. Likewise, the locust spawners could have their spawn rate slowed, to the point that the player is very unlikely to be overwhelmed. As for bells...they still make noise, but that's all they do in this case. I think with a system like this, it keeps immersion intact by keeping supernatural enemies aggressive, but it pushes combat into the background as story flavor, for the most part. You'll still need to deal with the occasional monster, but with the exception of a boss fight, it's not going to be challenging or something that you'll need to do very often.

[TheAmethyst]

@LadyWYT your idea is better than mine! I just think that "aggressive" is a little too difficult for new players. For me, I am new only been playing for 3-4 days, I started with creatureHostility set to off. But now I'm ready to go up 1 level and playing on Passive isn't much different from off. I'm not ready for aggressive yet.

[Thorfinn]

Or spawn rate increases as distance from original spawn point, up to some limit, maybe? And as depth increases, obviously. New players don't tend to travel very far anyway, and those who absolutely, positively MUST have purpleheart or ebony should face some kind of a challenge. There's probably a reason they spawn so few seeds.

[LadyWYT]

7 hours ago, TheAmethyst said:

@LadyWYT your idea is better than mine! I just think that "aggressive" is a little too difficult for new players. For me, I am new only been playing for 3-4 days, I started with creatureHostility set to off. But now I'm ready to go up 1 level and playing on Passive isn't much different from off. I'm not ready for aggressive yet.

I would argue that it's a setting catering mostly to players that still want to experience the game's story content, but absolutely hate combat. Regarding new players, one of the charms of Vintage Story, is that it absolutely will not pull its punches on the default settings. It gives new players just enough direction to be able to survive and advance themselves, but leaves the "how" up to them to figure out. It makes for a very steep learning curve, that can make for punishing gameplay at times, but once you figure out the key to doing a particular thing it is oh so satisfying!

The game also has a handy setting already for those who find the monsters a bit overwhelming. I'd forgotten about it last night when I wrote up my original post, but it is possible to set a grace period at the start of the game that will prevent monsters from spawning entirely until it ends(which in most cases, is a day or two prior to the first temporal storm). I played with the ten day grace period when I first started, as I found that it allowed me to more easily focus on figuring out early game mechanics while not needing to worry about getting swamped by drifters. I also played with "keep inventory" turned on to avoid some of the frustration that comes with death. Once I was more confident in what I was doing, I eventually started increasing the difficulty until I was satisfied with the level of challenge presented(which currently, is close to the default Balanced settings).

48 minutes ago, Thorfinn said:

Or spawn rate increases as distance from original spawn point, up to some limit, maybe? And as depth increases, obviously. New players don't tend to travel very far anyway, and those who absolutely, positively MUST have purpleheart or ebony should face some kind of a challenge. There's probably a reason they spawn so few seeds.

Possibly, though I think it hinges somewhat on what the maximum spawn limit is, regarding the rate and the distance from spawn. The travel demands of story locations are quite hefty--I think the Resonance Archive typically spawns around 3000-7000 blocks away or so. I don't know if the potential distance to any of the new locations has been stated, but I'm expecting those distances to be in the 10k+ range(especially wince we're getting mounts). If the maximum monster spawn rate is the same general rate that we have in the game now, it might work, but I'm not sure that it would satisfy the preferences of players that detest combat and just want to enjoy the story(which is how I tend to view the goal of a passive+ mode).

[TheAmethyst]

@LadyWYT Now I think there should be a "story" mode. More focus on the lore and story and less on combat.

[Thorfinn]

Sure but 10k is only a couple days, 3, maybe 4 if you run into absolutely lousy terrain and have to go around. The location of the RA appears to be a strong function of your exploration -- if you run short view distances, find everything you need quickly, and don't go through translocators, it can spawn almost on top of you.

There used to be mods that tweaked drifters into something similar to passive+. It's just a JSON. Look at the differences between sheep and drifters. Or set their aggro distance absurdly low, like you have to be in melee range for them to do anything but wander around and worship cats or whatever it is they do.

[Thorfinn]

7 hours ago, TheAmethyst said:

@LadyWYT Now I think there should be a "story" mode. More focus on the lore and story and less on combat.

Don't be disheartened, but I doubt that's in the cards, other than through mods. The game's vision is something based on horror, and if you are never in danger, it's pretty hard to even be afraid, let alone the edge-of-your-seat feeling they are trying to achieve. I think the recently-added Homo Sapiens mode was the official answer to the people who didn't care for the game as intended. Furthermore, you won't be able to complete the RA anyway if you can't deal with a few drifters. The RA doesn't even make sense without them. Neither does most of the lore.

Seriously, before long they won't even be a speed bump. You will be looking at a trunk full of temporal gears and jonas parts and think, "Gee, I don't remember killing that many of the buggers."

Edited August 6 by Thorfinn

[TheAmethyst]

@Thorfinn I'm not disheartened. Passive+ is what I'm more interested in. Passive doesn't seem any harder than off. But maybe that's just me. I'm trying to slowly work my way up to the base game mode (no Customization) and passive just doesn't feel like a step up.

[Thorfinn]

That's why I suggested a mod. Passive+ is not likely to be anything anyone uses for very long. And it almost completely eliminates the danger of caving if the drifters and locusts just ignore you. Might as well play in creative mode.

Might I suggest one of the mods that removes the rock-throwing from drifters as an intermediate? You can easily outrun drifters. Heck, you can easily run through drifters. Learn to fight them at a distance, with almost complete safety?

[EDIT]

Would hardly surprise me if the developers keep an eye on which are the popular mods. There are several dozen mods to nerf drifters, and many don't get 1,000 downloads. On the other hand, mods that butch drifters are much less common, but have an order of magnitude more downloads. It's easy to see which is the more popular. And since the same is true with wildlife, it would not surprise me in the least if that's one reason they keep wolves and bears more or less as is. People are already modding the game to make them more dangerous.

[/EDIT]

Edited August 6 by Thorfinn

[LadyWYT]

31 minutes ago, Thorfinn said:

Don't be disheartened, but I doubt that's in the cards, other than through mods.

It's probably not in the cards, but I also wouldn't be too shocked if some sort of story mode were added. Not all games have it, of course, but a couple of decent examples I can think of are Divinity: Original Sin and Skyrim(as well as Elder Scrolls titles in general). I've not played the story mode in DOS, as I wanted a bit of challenge, but judging by the description it greatly reduces the damage that enemies do, as well as puts them in less ideal positions in combat while making them focus on less optimal attack options. Skyrim handles it differently, in that the positions of enemies don't change, but setting the difficulty to the easiest setting ensures that enemies will do less damage to you, while taking more damage from your attacks. Both options are decent for players who are more interested in an interactive storybook rather than challenging gameplay, as they keep core gameplay intact(the combat) but make it very difficult for the player to actually die. You basically have to be making a deliberate effort for your character(s) to die in that case.

Now I don't see that being a popular game mode in Vintage Story if it does get added, as one of the major draws of the game is the challenge it presents to its players. I also don't think it quite fits with the lore, and while I wouldn't quite brand Vintage Story a horror game itself, it is meant to have a serious, unnerving threat that is present most of the time. That being said, I don't think completely neutral large wildlife really fits either, but there's still an option for it, just as there are options that pretty much make a world that's impossible to survive in. And sometimes you just want to turn down the difficulty and steamroll everything too, hah!

But you are probably correct; it'll likely remain in the modding domain.

[Thorfinn]

A horror game is really difficult to pull off. Ambience helps, a lot, but it's not sufficient. There has to be an actual threat for it to be scary. The first night, listening to drifters moaning one dirt block away from you was scary because you know how easy it was to dig up that block. Once you figure out they can't do that, you just learn to ignore the sound. It goes from something that can engender fear to some pathetic background noise. Drifters really, really need the ability to dig through walls. Maybe half as fast as a stone shovel, so you have time to try to figure out where you need to reinforce. You can go through cobblestone, so can they. I'd even give [EDIT: deep drifters] half copper pickaxe speed going through stone. Quartz or similar would stop them, but not higher drifters. And then the types of drifters that spawn on surface would be dependent on phase of the moon. On the nights when there is no moon, nightmare drifters appear, and can dig through any stone, but are stopped by metal plates. Or maybe only silver or cold iron, for the eldritch-inclined?

If you are not this side of frantic placing blocks in front of the guys digging into your panic room, and eventually leaving through the back door to run for your life, it's not really horror.

[EDIT2]

Obviously, I'm talking about something more than a content mod. I'm imagining watching the blocks get cracks in them, like they do for you, though not as quickly, and you could "repair" those cracks with the same material, or maybe mortar, If too many start destroying the same block, you will probably have to back up and place another, hopefully stronger block between you and them, and get ready to start repairing that it it's not enough.

[/EDIT2]

Edited August 7 by Thorfinn

[TheAmethyst]

I assumed the "Suggestions" forum wasn't just for the base game but also for modders. I would mod myself but I'm not an advanced enough programmer yet. I like both of your ideas, maybe a modder will see this post. @LadyWYT @Thorfinn

 

EDIT: I like the idea of the game getting progressively more difficult the further you move out away from spawn. It would be cool to see the spawn area be less "hilly" and easier to traverse and as you go out with it getting progressively more difficult, that could include the terrain/biomes and not just the enemies/dungeons etc

Edited August 7 by TheAmethyst

[Maelstrom]

On 8/6/2024 at 7:23 AM, LadyWYT said:

It makes for a very steep learning curve, that can make for punishing gameplay at times, but once you figure out the key to doing a particular thing it is oh so satisfying!

^^^ THIS ^^^
is why I absolutely LOVE this game!!!

 

@Thorfinn That is a terrifying idea!   I love it!

Edited August 7 by Maelstrom

[Thorfinn]

I've been pondering it overnight. I don't think the coding is going to turn out to be as difficult as I first thought it might. The concept of the Nazgul from Lord of the Rings came to mind, specifically Jackson's interpretation. You can hear the drifters sniffing the air, trying to smell you out. If you happen to be in range, (which is greater, and through more blocks for the higher level drifters), they switch to that screaming, screeching sound they make. And then the sound of scratching away at dirt, stone, whatever is in the way...

[EDIT]

And then you hear something moving around on your thatched roof, sniffing...

[/EDIT]

Edited August 7 by Thorfinn

[Brandybuck]

I would like "realistic" mode. Bears and wolves tend to avoid humans/seraphs instead of actively seeking them out, but will still attack if bothered, starving, have cubs, or startled.

Drifter would attack back, or if you get too close, but don't actively seek out humans/seraphs. While they still prefer the dark, they are not going to swarm out of caves just because the sun came down. Only a few will wander out. Storms should still be storms, and rifts should still be rifts. If player no want storm/rift, turn those off separately.

My opinion.

[Thorfinn]

There are already mods that do most of that, @Brandybuck. I doubt it would ever be anything official, as it contradicts the lore. It specifically says the animals have become more aggressive, and that drifters do what they do...

[LadyWYT]

2 minutes ago, Thorfinn said:

I doubt it would ever be anything official, as it contradicts the lore. It specifically says the animals have become more aggressive, and that drifters do what they do...

Given what I've seen of the new wolf model/animation, I'm inclined to think that wolves and other aggressive wildlife might be giving the player some kind of warning to back-off before attacking. It does depend on the lore though, which in my opinion is a bit ambiguous on why certain animals are so aggressive all of a sudden. I'm thinking that either there is something they dislike about seraphs specifically, or that the heightened aggression was due to the animals getting infected with the Rot and turning into monsters. Of course, it could just be that animals have adapted to be extra-wary of anything that looks remotely human, but I doubt this is the case as you never see animals and drifters fighting each other unprovoked.

2 hours ago, Brandybuck said:

Drifter would attack back, or if you get too close, but don't actively seek out humans/seraphs. While they still prefer the dark, they are not going to swarm out of caves just because the sun came down. Only a few will wander out. Storms should still be storms, and rifts should still be rifts. If player no want storm/rift, turn those off separately.

I mostly agree, although I do think that drifters should be aggressive the moment that they notice a seraph. There may be a lore reason that they don't attack animals, so it's not too immersion-breaking if they're prevented from attacking animals unprovoked and it prevents players from getting frustrated by drifters wiping out the nearby animal populations. In regards to drifters attacking humans(like the traders), or rather their current lack of aggression...I don't think that's particularly lore-accurate or immersive, but I can understand the design decision there--it's to help ensure that traders and other NPCs are actually there for the player to talk to and trade with.

In regards to how drifters currently spawn and operate, I also think the ones we have now are fine, although they could be a little better at finding their way around obstacles. And while they don't seem meant to be an intelligent enemy, I'd make them fall back after a short time if they're unable to physically reach a player, and either attack at range or wait for the player to exit cover. Otherwise, they're a solid basic threat for players, especially new ones, to contend with. They're not so challenging that they can't be dealt with, but their strength in numbers means that bullrushing them is typically a bad idea. Their ranged attack also makes it more difficult to do things like build a short dirt pillar and stab them with spears; allowing the drifters to fall back if they can't reach you also means that in that scenario, they have a much better chance of hitting you with rocks without being attacked themselves.

The higher tier drifters improve on the "standard model" by adding an additional attack type, as well as extra damage and hitpoints. So while they're a familiar-enough enemy for a new player to already have an idea of how to fight, they're going to require a bit more effort to kill. The knockback on their attacks also means that even veteran players shouldn't be complacent, as being sent flying in the wrong direction could easily prove fatal.