Vegan Mod Request/Suggestion

[Victor Scrooge]

Hello, I didn't find anything about this with the search tool, so I start the topic myself. 

I was wondering if you could give people like me who are not really enjoying to act against our real life philosophy something, to avoid killing everything around us like crazy. 

Like the old vegan mod from MC 1.7.10.

I know a lot of people really hate that kind of question or suggestion. I am not really good at modding so I can just turn to this. 

 

Best wishes 

Edited March 10, 2020 by Victor Scrooge

[Ari]

It's actually possible to get all your nutritional needs met in the game without hunting/killing animals. The nutritional categories are fruit, vegetable, protein, and grain. Obviously fruit/veg/grain are not animal products, and for protein you can use soybeans.

[Victor Scrooge]

What about some of the materials? Not just nutrition. Leather for example. 

 

The vegan Mod added a substitute, like jute, made from large fern. 

 

Thanks for the response. 

[Yukihira_S]

As far as I know there are not natural materials that can give the same performance of leather. 

About the cruelty issue, you may avoid to hunt but still you'll have to defend yourself against hostile mobs so... I don't think that it's possible to go 100% vegan without radically redesign the game.

[Victor Scrooge]

I think it would be possible to be 100% vegan with the help of a mod. 

I don't see how you compare to defend one self and actively hunting for materials.

[redram]

It would be  fairly simple to mod in an alternate backpack recipe that uses linen.   As for armor, there are actually already models for padded alternates to leather jerkin.  The eventual intent is that you can use either linen or leather as the basis for the armors (except lamellar).  I don't really recall exactly why they didn't make it into the armor update...And the existing gambeson is fairly decent armor in itself. 

[Victor Scrooge]

Thanks for the answer. I will definitely try to mod myself but as said I am not really good at modding. 

I really hope to get the choice. 

[Kaelty]

In Vintage story you advance through multiple ages in human history. The Concept of veganism is a rather new one as even in these times living completly vegan requires extensiv knowledge on where animal products were used and how to keep a balanced diet without using any meat/fish or other products from animals. Granted it's getting easier now with the vegan food boom (5 years ago getting vegan alternatives was still hard) But we are in modern times now so i do think trying to implement a lifestyle like this into a scenario like it is in Vintage Story where you practically start at stoneage techlevel is kinda besides the point, even more so since killing is part of the game. That jute doesn't even come close to beeing as resilient as leather is just another point against complete implementation, although i wouldn't mind gradually adding more fabrics to the game they shouldn't be treated as an complete alternative to leather.

If you do want an alternative then i do think modding is the only right answer, or you could turn all mobs passiv which would eliminate the need for armor. In case you do want to make the mod I would like to direct you to this forum post here Community-ressource-libary as I do think that at least jute might be part of multiple mods and this way compatibility would be ensured.

Just to make sure i'm not missunderstood. I do not denounce veganism, I myself use quite a lot of vegan products and i try to get my animal products from sources where the animals are treated well. I just think that Reality and a Game are 2 completly different things and should be treated as such. Just like i think that forcing cultural and racial diversity in a Movie or a Series or inserting females into male roles is wrong and essentialy censorship, especially if the source material clearly states otherwise.

Edited March 10, 2020 by Kaelty
added link

[Heiress]

Jainism has been around for as early as 900 BCE (well before the iron age in many places.), one of the core tenets of Jainism is nonviolence, animals included.

I don't think there's really much historical concerns here.

[Victor Scrooge]

"Just to make sure i'm not missunderstood. I do not denounce veganism, I myself use quite a lot of vegan products and i try to get my animal products from sources where the animals are treated well. I just think that Reality and a Game are 2 completly different things and should be treated as such. Just like i think that forcing cultural and racial diversity in a Movie or a Series or inserting females into male roles is wrong and essentialy censorship, especially if the source material clearly states otherwise."

The problem with Reality and Game is that this isn't really a good point discussion vise. A game is a simulation of reality. Gaming as a narrative medium has grown so much in the last 30 years, that this conception is just outdated. On top of that I have to disagree to you on every point you made in your quote. Rethinking and reworking storys from the past is extremely important. Every story we know has to be altered to a certain extent so we are able to understand it. I had to read a medieval novel at university and it's mind-boggling how many problems arise when it comes to understanding our own society a thousand years back in time. 

As for your claim about food. Meat as a primary food source is a relatively new form as a way of life. 

In the realm of armor, you have no idea what a bunch of sticks or paper can do. Leather is not the wondermaterial. If you handle it wrong it's briddle, your own skin is irritated etc. That is one of the reasons why fabric was so much more valuable.

 

[Kaelty]

10 minutes ago, Heiress said:

Jainism has been around for as early as 900 BCE (well before the iron age in many places.), one of the core tenets of Jainism is nonviolence, animals included.

I don't think there's really much historical concerns here.

The oldest found tools from the stone-age are around 2.6million (not made from homo sapiens) and it ended 2200 BCE so 1300 years before jainism. I also doubt that every single person in India was a follower of Jainism or that they refused to use animal products even if they themselves didn't kill any. There is such a thing as Trade, and you can't really rely on that in VS. Using leather that a non-jain produced does not conflict with the Mahavratas that the Jain follow. I will not deny that there are jain that do live without it but there surely are some that do.

[Heiress]

The point I was making was more related to veganism being a "rather new" idea, whereas in history the idea of not harming animals where possible has been one for many years. I won't deny that veganism as it is today with even minimizing or eliminating the use of animal products like wool and milk is a relatively new one, but vegetarian ways of life have been a thing for years. So all I am saying is that non animal alternatives may not be a problem to the integrity of this games image, most of the work is already there anyway, protein can be gotten from soy beans which are already in game and leather is not required to progress with the exception of the creation of armor and Backpacks.

And then even from a gameplay perspective it would make for some replay value potentially.

[Kaelty]

On 3/10/2020 at 8:39 PM, Victor Scrooge said:

The problem with Reality and Game is that this isn't really a good point discussion vise. A game is a simulation of reality. Gaming as a narrative medium has grown so much in the last 30 years, that this conception is just outdated. On top of that I have to disagree to you on every point you made in your quote. Rethinking and reworking storys from the past is extremely important. Every story we know has to be altered to a certain extent so we are able to understand it. I had to read a medieval novel at university and it's mind-boggling how many problems arise when it comes to understanding our own society a thousand years back in time. 

As for your claim about food. Meat as a primary food source is a relatively new form as a way of life. 

In the realm of armor, you have no idea what a bunch of sticks or paper can do. Leather is not the wondermaterial. If you handle it wrong it's briddle, your own skin is irritated etc. That is one of the reasons why fabric was so much more valuable.

 

Ok first of all your point of "A game is a simulation of reality. " is just underlining my point. VS is not an simulation of living in a modern world but one where humans are almost extinct and technological levels are at least at the start on stoneage level. If you chose to keep your own viewpoint that is fine but i doubt the "people" who live inside that world would have the same views.

I agree that rethinking and reworking storys of the past is important, what i was talking about is altering storys less then 50 years old because it could butthurt some people. We are living in a world where some people put wrong translations or synchronisations into their work because it fits their own worldview better. It'S not that those works can't be understood until you change them, it'S that those people change them so they will be understood differently. Thats simply spitting in the authors face at that point.

As for the point about food, I NEVER said something about meat as the primary food source. I simply stated that living completly vegan without knowledge about the right diet is difficult, people tend to interpret things as they like i know but lets keep this civil.

as for armor i actually do know quite a bit, wooden armor does have it's uses and it's implemented in the game. I agree on the part that it needing leather is... not necessary. I also know about paper armor. Mythbusters once did try making one and here is the result. Mythbuster Paperarmor    while it does indeed kinda work, making one requires a lot of paper and a lot of time, the right technik is important too. I guess 1 person alone without the equipment would spend around 6 months for 1 suit of armor (from gathering the required materials over making the amount of paper needed as well as the necessary equipment to make paper and folding the paper and assembling it) IF they know how to do it.

Edited May 15, 2020 by Kaelty
typo

[Kaelty]

5 minutes ago, Heiress said:

The point I was making was more related to veganism being a "rather new" idea, whereas in history the idea of not harming animals where possible has been one for many years. I won't deny that veganism as it is today with even minimizing or eliminating the use of animal products like wool and milk is a relatively new one, but vegetarian ways of life have been a thing for years.

I think you missunderstood me, i seperate veganism and vegtarism. I was talking about complete veganism. vegetarism was indeed around for a long time allready.

Also i don't think the idea itself is bad, it could make the replay value go up i don't doubt that. But thats something you put in a Mod. I have no intention to stand in the way of such a Mod existing and Vintage Story was programmed with Mods in mind. I even linked a forums thread that would help with making the mod. All I'm saying is that reworking the game to make it vegan friendly at the cost of realism is the wrong approach. Victor Scrooge himself stated in his opening post  that he got the idea from a Mod for Minecraft. Nobody would claim that the Mod would need to be in Vanilla Minecraft, everybody is OK with it beeing a Mod. I just think that the same should be the case for Vintage Story.

[Kaelty]

It's kinda sad that this thread has transformed from a simply discussion about making a Mod for a game, into me trying to explain a single statement. As I said I myself am living while trying to avoid Animal Products, I have nothing against veganism. I just want to leave people the choice to decide themselves if they want an altered game or not.

Edited March 10, 2020 by Kaelty
grammar correction

[Heiress]

I can see merit to having alternatives even implemented in the base game. Most abstractions that could potentially come around against realism are already circumvented or can be circumvented, effectively to go fully vegan in the game currently you'd have to stop killing animals and give up eggs, Wool and dairy aren't even in the game yet, and would probably not be crucial either.

Essentially this suggestion currently could be boiled down to an alternative to backpacks (making them a sidegrade ideally?) and allowing gambeson to be used as a base for armor, or some other flax based armor that can be used as a base for chainmail.

Truth be told, this wouldn't be so hard to mod, but I would not be against seeing this in the base game.

[Kaelty]

4 minutes ago, Heiress said:

I can see merit to having alternatives even implemented in the base game. Most abstractions that could potentially come around against realism are already circumvented or can be circumvented, effectively to go fully vegan in the game currently you'd have to stop killing animals and give up eggs, Wool and dairy aren't even in the game yet, and would probably not be crucial either.

Essentially this suggestion currently could be boiled down to an alternative to backpacks (making them a sidegrade ideally?) and allowing gambeson to be used as a base for armor, or some other flax based armor that can be used as a base for chainmail.

Truth be told, this wouldn't be so hard to mod, but I would not be against seeing this in the base game.

I would be fine with that approach too, my point was that there should be no item in the game thats essentially leather with another name and skin. (thats how it works in the Minecraft Mod)

I would also be OK with paper armor, I just think that it would need to be realistic and crafting one would take enormous amounts of time. As for the wooden Armor, I allready said that i think leather shouldn't be necessary for that. I would use the allready implemented Rope that has no use as for now.

Edited March 10, 2020 by Kaelty
added afterthought

[Victor Scrooge]

5 minutes ago, Kaelty said:

I just want to leave people the choice to decide themselves

Well, we agree on this. We both want people to be able to make choices of their own. If it's an option in the game you can still choose if you want to play this way or not. If it's a mod you can choose wethrt you want to play this way or not. The only difference is how simple it is to choose. Do I just play or do I install a mod before I can choose. The convenience of being able to choose intuitively during the game doesn't affect the ability to choose a different style of playing. 

[Kaelty]

2 minutes ago, Victor Scrooge said:

Well, we agree on this. We both want people to be able to make choices of their own. If it's an option in the game you can still choose if you want to play this way or not. If it's a mod you can choose wethrt you want to play this way or not. The only difference is how simple it is to choose. Do I just play or do I install a mod before I can choose. The convenience of being able to choose intuitively during the game doesn't affect the ability to choose a different style of playing. 

Just to inform you, even the survival mode that you use is a Mod, thats how this game is programmed. Adding a vegan Option in the settings is really easy. It's just that Tyron and Saraty are making this game mostly by themselves. The amount of features that Tyron wants to add to the game is far bigger than the ones allready in it and bugfixes allready take quite a lot of time. My point is that if people want those alternatives then they just could make a mod for it. There is no need to add even more work on tyrons shoulders. If people really want it in their game simply looking for the right mod is no problem at all, no need to spoonfeed it to everybody. As you said both ways are easy for the other players. But one way needs for a modder to work and the other one needs tyron to work. If the Mod reaches an degree of perfection where tyron says he wants to implement it then thats that. But if he has to do it himself then other features will have to wait. I prefer to get the stuff that does not exist yet over an alternative to stuff that does exist allready.

I'm sorry if i put tyron on the spot with this, i wanted to keep him out of this discussion but since every other argument was either ignored or brushed away...

[Victor Scrooge]

... 

Just to inform you, the thread we're currently posting it is called 'suggestions'. I am aware of mods and I also have no issues with using mods. Still, this is a suggestion for implementation in the thread for implementation suggestions. 

I really hoped that my post on agreeing would close our discussion an would leave things on a positive note. Especially since you expressed to find it sad to even have this discussion. 

[Elwood]

Sounds like an interesting concept for a simple mod.   I agree most of it could be done with alternative recipes and item variants in a mod. Combining the barrel, firepit and grid crafting to make things interesting.  I don't think it belongs in the core game since veganism is a very recent concept and impossible in the primitive time era and people would have starved without the generosity of animals. 

Some ideas
bonemeal -   compost (spoiled food +  grass)  - or random drop bones when digging peat. (animals often get trapped in peat bogs)
Fat - oil from soybean or flax.  we dont have a butter churn or wine press yet but maybe soybeans covered in rocks within a barrel could produce a vegetable fat?
feathers - could be a rare drop from breaking branches (vegans allow "cruelty free feathers are naturally molted by birds")
faux leather - as redram suggests - linen.  possibly laminated using tree sap.
even temporal gears could have some recipe or random drop. example random archeology drop if using a special tool in a certain rock/soil type.  added to pots as a rare drop. 

Its very easy (relatively speaking) to patch vanilla to add rare random drops, no coding needed, just editing text files.  Recipe changes and drops are easy if the outcome is a vanilla item.  
It becomes harder if you wanted the alternatives to have their own models like faux leather having a different appearance.  But if you are ok with it looking just like real leather then this is very easy to mod.  I think that is generally what the MC mod does. Alternative recipes to make the same item.

 

Edited March 10, 2020 by Elwood

[Kaelty]

33 minutes ago, Victor Scrooge said:

... 

Just to inform you, the thread we're currently posting it is called 'suggestions'. I am aware of mods and I also have no issues with using mods. Still, this is a suggestion for implementation in the thread for implementation suggestions. 

I really hoped that my post on agreeing would close our discussion an would leave things on a positive note. Especially since you expressed to find it sad to even have this discussion. 

well I'm very sorry that i put my own oppinion in your thread, i even posted a link to some people who could help with the mod so i thought i was still beeing nice.

Yes this is a suggestion thread, but that doesn't mean that only people who agree with said suggestion can post in it. The developers would need to start a poll for every suggestion if they are interested what the rest of the community thinks about the suggestion otherwise.

You haven't agreed with me since my very first post btw, and i have only ever answered you since then whenever you quoted me. The rest of the comments in here were directed at Heiress.

[Kaelty]

35 minutes ago, Elwood said:

Sounds like an interesting concept for a simple mod.   I agree most of it could be done with alternative recipes and item variants in a mod. Combining the barrel, firepit and grid crafting to make things interesting.  I don't think it belongs in the core game since veganism is a very recent concept and impossible in the primitive time era and people would have starved without the generosity of animals. 

Some ideas
bonemeal -   compost (spoiled food +  grass)  - or random drop bones when digging peat. (animals often get trapped in peat bogs)
Fat - oil from soybean or flax.  we dont have a butter churn or wine press yet but maybe soybeans covered in rocks within a barrel could produce a vegetable fat?
feathers - could be a rare drop from breaking branches (vegans allow "cruelty free feathers are naturally molted by birds")
faux leather - as redram suggests - linen.  possibly laminated using tree sap.
even temporal gears could have some recipe or random drop. example random archeology drop if using a special tool in a certain rock/soil type.  added to pots as a rare drop. 

Its very easy (relatively speaking) to patch vanilla to add rare random drops, no coding needed, just editing text files.  Recipe changes and drops are easy if the outcome is a vanilla item.  
It becomes harder if you wanted the alternatives to have their own models like faux leather having a different appearance.  But if you are ok with it looking just like real leather then this is very easy to mod.  I think that is generally what the MC mod does. Alternative recipes to make the same item.

 

Hey Elwood,

Compost allready exists, it is slightly inferior to terra petra (the best soil ingame) and i think soil recovers over time so making multiple fields and using a four-field system should be enough.

I think fruit trees might get into the game and so i'm for the implementation of olive trees as an alternative for oil.

I agree on the feathers from tree branches.

faux-leather (or using a different crafting methode for stuff it's used in) would be ok in a mod.

uhhm thats.... i think they should be really hard to get as getting them normally is allready rather difficult so i don't know if that way would be fine.

The MC mod introduces a whole new system for crafting jute as an alternative for leather (gotta farm it bundle it up and submerge it underwater for some time etc.) so that part would take some time actually, which is why i linked him to the community-ressources-libary project that someone else started so that he maybe could get some help there.

[Boesknecht]

Make the Drifters drop leather and/or fat and I think everything would be fine. Or have animal skin left on carcasses that were eaten by animals to make leather from. So one can keep his gatherer's mentality and still be able to process the products.

[Kaelty]

50 minutes ago, Boesknecht said:

Make the Drifters drop leather and/or fat and I think everything would be fine. Or have animal skin left on carcasses that were eaten by animals to make leather from. So one can keep his gatherer's mentality and still be able to process the products.

I can't really tell you much as i would spoiler you, but there is a reason drifters only drop the things they drop. adding leather or fat would go against the lore as the skin they have should not be able to be used as leather and drom what i know they are actually really skinny and have no fat on them that they could drop.

While the idea doesn't work in the base game it's another story if you add it with a mod.

If you are asking what kinda lore i mean, you can find books and scrolls in underground ruins and at some traders.

As for the carcasses... hmm difficult as every animal only drops 1 pelt and an allready half eaten carcass wouldn't have a full one. I also think that people used to burn or bury such carcasses as they are a source of diseases. There might be other reasons as well but i don't think carcasses are a good source for ressources, both IRL and ingame.