Smoke from fire pits and forges, pipes and ventalation

[Echo Weaver]

6 minutes ago, Thorfinn said:

But it wouldn't bug you to have the smoke effect occur inside your base?

Even with big honkin' holes in the thatch roof, which is not remotely airtight, the room got smoky enough to drive bugs out, and, I'm sure, contributed to the shorter lifespan of the people. I don't see how it could avoid doing so. And, again, thatched roof, not the much more draft-resistant wood and stone and glass roofs I see all the time in-game.

It wouldn't bug me if I had the means to get rid of it by burning in a fireplace with chimney. And a lot of things like pit kilns and forges would be better off in places not completely enclosed.

What bugs me about mist in the house is that I'm pretty sure it wouldn't be there in misty weather. The mist would be outside the house.

[Thorfinn]

3 hours ago, Echo Weaver said:

And a lot of things like pit kilns and forges would be better off in places not completely enclosed.

Why?

[EDIT]

So this isn't just taken as some glib retort, a real torch gives about an hour of really good light and a crapton of smoke. Do you oppose the extended life of torches, as well as the very real risk of asphyxiation from the use of torches in, for example, caves or mines, let alone in cellars? 

[EDIT2]

Real story. Several of my friends and I were exploring an abandoned mine not too far from home, using mostly candles and tea lights. After a while, we could not figure out why the candles were dimming. In a (probably) divine burst of inspiration, it hit me that not only would they rapidly consume the oxygen, but the lack of oxygen would impair the ability to think clearly, and make it hard for us to figure out what was going on. We all ended up with some serious CO poisoning, and two of us ended up being admitted to the hospital for a couple days after being released from ER.

Sorry. Not a huge fan of realism. Not when talking CO poisoning. I really, really don't want to have to deal with that every time I'm mining.

Edited August 8, 2025 by Thorfinn

[Echo Weaver]

14 minutes ago, Thorfinn said:

Why?

[EDIT]

So this isn't just taken as some glib retort, a real torch gives about an hour of really good light and a crapton of smoke. Do you oppose the extended life of torches, as well as the very real risk of asphyxiation from the use of torches in, for example, caves or mines, let alone in cellars?

We're always doing simulation until we're not.

Torches are pretty romanticized in this and that other game. They're not all that practical irl. I'd totally be up for an interesting alternate mechanic for early game light. Heh. I suppose sitting in the dark at night until you have candles would be more realistic, but as you say, not so much fun.

15 minutes ago, Thorfinn said:

Real story. Several of my friends and I were exploring an abandoned mine not too far from home, using mostly candles and tea lights. After a while, we could not figure out why the candles were dimming. In a (probably) divine burst of inspiration, it hit me that not only would they rapidly consume the oxygen, but the lack of oxygen would impair the ability to think clearly, and make it hard for us to figure out what was going on. We all ended up with some serious CO poisoning, and two of us ended up being admitted to the hospital for a couple days after being released from ER.

Sorry. Not a huge fan of realism. Not when talking CO poisoning.

Holy crap. I can see why you wouldn't be interested in a smoke mechanic.

[Thorfinn]

16 hours ago, Echo Weaver said:

We're always doing simulation until we're not.

I think maybe this highlights the difference. You are looking for a simulation, I am looking for a game. I don't need gritty realism catering to every seraph's actions. Heroic fantasy literature doesn't go into details about bodily elimination, I don't want a poop option in the game. Asphyxiation and having a good wank are another couple things that maybe some people want, but I don't want in the game. They similarly do not appear in most heroic literature. And because of the story, a heroic epic is exactly what this game aspires to be. I have nothing against adding those things as mods. I just won't use them.

I'm not doing simulation. If that's what I wanted, there are a crapton of simulation games. I don't want a Valheim crossover. (No, I have not played it, and from the descriptions, I have no interest in it.)

Edited August 9, 2025 by Thorfinn

[Echo Weaver]

20 minutes ago, Thorfinn said:

I think maybe this highlights the difference. You are looking for a simulation, I am looking for a game. I don't need gritty realism catering to every seraph's actions. Heroic fantasy literature doesn't go into details about bodily elimination, I don't want a poop option in the game. Asphyxiation and having a good wank are another couple things that maybe some people want, but I don't want in the game. They similarly do not appear in most heroic literature. And because of the story, a heroic epic is exactly what this game aspires to be. I have nothing against adding those things as mods. I just won't use them.

I'm not doing simulation. If that's what I wanted, there are a crapton of simulation games. I don't want a Valheim crossover. (No, I have not played it, and from the descriptions, I have no interest in it.)

OK, I find this line of thinking perplexing in the context of this particular game. Pretty much everything other than the rust monsters IS simulation. This is a simulation game. 

ETA: Considering your high-combat, permadeath playstyle, maybe you in fact aren't playing a sim game. Those of us who are focused on farming, domesticating livestock, and whatnot are playing simulation.

Edited August 9, 2025 by Echo Weaver

[Thorfinn]

I don't see it that way at all. There are no deficiency diseases, for example. No poop or pee. No need to drink water. Heck, not even sleep is required. Very similar to heroic epics. It's simulating only those aspects typical in heroic fantasy.

[LadyWYT]

I'd think it's less a question of whether or not Vintage Story is a simulation game, and more a question of how much realism can a game simulate and still be fun for the majority of players.

[Echo Weaver]

27 minutes ago, Thorfinn said:

I don't see it that way at all. There are no deficiency diseases, for example. No poop or pee. No need to drink water. Heck, not even sleep is required. Very similar to heroic epics. It's simulating only those aspects typical in heroic fantasy.

I'm pretty sure 3-stage leathermaking and 5-nutrient nutrition aren't part of heroic fantasy. Neither is farming or animal domestication.

The game can be both.

[Thorfinn]

42 minutes ago, Echo Weaver said:

I'm pretty sure 3-stage leathermaking and 5-nutrient nutrition aren't part of heroic fantasy. Neither is farming or animal domestication.

I'd agree with the leather. I can't think of an example, anyway. "Nutrition" is not a nutrition sim at all, but merely a HP buff, a common mechanic in the TTRPG scene. Samwise was a gardener, and talked often (in the books, anyway) about getting back to the shire and his real calling. And there are lots of stories that at length discuss training of mounts, though not sheep. At least that I know of. Also, domestication does not work that way. Natural aggression can take a while to breed out, but comfort level around humans? Single generation at most. Usually if you treat animals well, it's first generation. In other words, it's not simulating reality, but has created a mechanic that will take most of the game to complete, at least when the game is complete.

There are lots of other things equally for game reasons instead of modeling reality reasons, Among the top would have to be trees growing to maturity in a month and water source blocks being transportable by a bucket.

[Krougal]

This is not a simulation game at all. Just because it tries to simulate some things doesn't make it the purpose of the game.

A simulation game tries to portray the given processes with as much realism as possible.  

31 minutes ago, Thorfinn said:

I'd agree with the leather. I can't think of an example, anyway. "Nutrition" is not a nutrition sim at all, but merely a HP buff, a common mechanic in the TTRPG scene. Samwise was a gardener, and talked often (in the books, anyway) about getting back to the shire and his real calling. And there are lots of stories that at length discuss training of mounts, though not sheep. At least that I know of. Also, domestication does not work that way. Natural aggression can take a while to breed out, but comfort level around humans? Single generation at most. Usually if you treat animals well, it's first generation. In other words, it's not simulating reality, but has created a mechanic that will take most of the game to complete, at least when the game is complete.

There are lots of other things equally for game reasons instead of modeling reality reasons, Among the top would have to be trees growing to maturity in a month and water source blocks being transportable by a bucket.

Ahhh Samwise...the loyal friend and reluctant hero. We raise a pint to him!

Yeah, the animal domestication is just punishment. 10 generations is ludicrous.

 

As far as fun or not, some of the mechanics that we all hate maybe don't directly add fun in and of themselves, but by the challenges they create that are fun to solve.

I honestly think there should be a need for ventilation. Early on it will just be a hole in the roof, later chimneys, maybe even pipes & ductwork. It adds some engineering challenge, especially for underground bases.

It is in the same category as unstable dirt and collapses. It isn't fun having the dirt slip out from under you when you walk up to the big gaping hole in the ground (it is bad enough that you'll probably fall into it without the stability mechanic enabled) or the ceiling collapse on you while mining; yet you yourself play with these enabled.

It makes you have to be ever vigilant and think about what you are doing. It adds some realism to mining having to shore the ceiling up with braces. Honestly I like these mechanics in concept but I think the current execution leaves a lot to be desired.

 

Edited August 9, 2025 by Krougal

[Thorfinn]

1 hour ago, Krougal said:

I honestly think there should be a need for ventilation.

I could adapt to it pretty easily, but I doubt that is true in general. I can quickly parkour my way through caves, so leave it mostly clean, without a lot of blocks or ladders or a string of torches which limit spawns, but also get rid of breathable air. This would be the replacement for the "Wolves are unfair!"  threads.

It also ends up with the game trying to figure out how large the cavern is so it can decide how many torches is too many for the time you've been in there.

"So use it only for rooms!"

Sure, and the workaround would be making your room more than 14 in any one direction, maybe by the non-obvious expedient of a sleek door.

It just strikes me as another thing that sounds OK until you start thinking through the implementation details.

[EDIT]

Great fodder for a mod, BTW. Hammer out the deets using people who most want it to make it work.

Edited August 9, 2025 by Thorfinn

[Krougal]

27 minutes ago, Thorfinn said:

I could adapt to it pretty easily, but I doubt that is true in general. I can quickly parkour my way through caves, so leave it mostly clean, without a lot of blocks or ladders or a string of torches which limit spawns, but also get rid of breathable air. This would be the replacement for the "Wolves are unfair!"  threads.

It also ends up with the game trying to figure out how large the cavern is so it can decide how many torches is too many for the time you've been in there.

"So use it only for rooms!"

Sure, and the workaround would be making your room more than 14 in any one direction, maybe by the non-obvious expedient of a sleek door.

It just strikes me as another thing that sounds OK until you start thinking through the implementation details.

True it is all in the implementation.

As it seems I do all too often around this section, I will point out that it doesn't need to be super realistic to be worth implementing.

You and I seem to both agree on the "but is it fun?" litmus test for features.

I wouldn't bother with checking torches at all. It would likely be very resource intensive. It also doesn't add fun.

I would check campfires, pit kilns and forge. Yes, use it only for rooms. Sure, people could cheese it if they like, but there are some benefits to having proper rooms, and if there were more benefits to rooms, people would be less likely to.

I also like to keep my kitchen as a qualifying cellar for convenience. So I wouldn't be looking to cheese it, even if the chimney reduces the efficiency of the cellar.

It is something like rain extinguishing fires. Once again, not a mechanic that adds fun. It doesn't present much of an engineering challenge, but it does force you to make a roof of some sort. We could really do without it, since all I wind up doing usually is making a stupid looking grid of rammed earth over my pit kilns, and it is pretty annoying to have to cover torches, but it isn't something I absolutely hate either. It's just a thing, and I deal with it.

Edited August 9, 2025 by Krougal

[Thorfinn]

1 minute ago, Krougal said:

You and I seem to both agree on the "but is it fun?" litmus test for features.

Yes, and I still have not seen anyone make the case for why it is fun.

I think permadeath adds to the challenge, yes, but it's biggest effect it is makes you play more intelligently. You manage risks based on an honest evaluation of your skill level. Or you start over. But I don't go from that to suggesting that people should be forced to play permadeath, because realism. I accept that to many people, that would not be fun. 

[Krougal]

1 minute ago, Thorfinn said:

Yes, and I still have not seen anyone make the case for why it is fun.

I think permadeath adds to the challenge, yes, but it's biggest effect it is makes you play more intelligently. You manage risks based on an honest evaluation of your skill level. Or you start over. But I don't go from that to suggesting that people should be forced to play permadeath, because realism. I accept that to many people, that would not be fun. 

Oh, if it were implemented I absolutely think it should also be another opt-in feature.

I see permadeath the same way, if not that glitches happen I would be more inclined to play with it on.

I also tend to play way too many hours and when I get fatigued, I get sloppy. So it's something I would do with a side game and play short sessions when I can be focused and free of interruptions. 

This is also adding to the challenge in a similar (although much smaller) way. You have to build a little more intelligently.

 

[Echo Weaver]

4 hours ago, Krougal said:

This is not a simulation game at all. Just because it tries to simulate some things doesn't make it the purpose of the game.

Realistic survival mechanics is totally one of the purposes of the game. Realistic survival mechanics are simulation.

I think you guys have a very narrow view of what a simulation game is, mostly defined by not being what you're playing. Most simulation games are simulating within a certain context and with certain goals. All simulations, game or not, simplify what they're simulating, and what they choose to simplify feeds into what they're trying to accomplish wrt to style and story. Lots of survival games are also simulating. 

The subtext I'm hearing here is that calling a game simulation is low-status or something. We have to protect VS's honor by making a distinction between the kind of simulation it is doing and sim games.

I guess I'll just call it "realism" next time to avoid getting people's hackles up.

[Thorfinn]

2 hours ago, Echo Weaver said:

I think you guys have a very narrow view of what a simulation game is, mostly defined by not being what you're playing.

With a sufficiently broad definition, sure, everything is a sim. Kind of like the RPG question of last week. There is overlap between the genres, but I'd put VS much more in the adventure or strategy than the simulation camp. It also has strong ties to Open World and Sandbox. Sim is already broad enough, covering stuff like Leisure Suit Larry to flight sims to combat sims to tycoon sims to factory sims to city builders to colony builders.

Incidentally, I play a lot of sims, particularly city builders, colony builders, terraformers, and tank or aircraft battle sims. Occasionally, grand strategy wargames. I've even been known to waste hours on Factorio and Autonauts. When I want to get my sim fix, I never pull up VS. I find myself flipping a coin between clicking on No Man's Sky and VS when I'm in the mood for that kind of game.

 

5 hours ago, Krougal said:

if not that glitches happen I would be more inclined to play with it on.

I view it like getting struck by lightning. It was just my time. I will note that I have very rarely die to a glitch in an unmodded game. There have been glitches, true, especially in prereleases, but I remain far enough inside my margin of safety that they are rarely lethal. When I die, it was my mistake. I either broke one of my rules or I got my fingers on the wrong keys.

Edited August 9, 2025 by Thorfinn

[Krougal]

5 hours ago, Echo Weaver said:

Realistic survival mechanics is totally one of the purposes of the game. Realistic survival mechanics are simulation.

I think you guys have a very narrow view of what a simulation game is, mostly defined by not being what you're playing. Most simulation games are simulating within a certain context and with certain goals. All simulations, game or not, simplify what they're simulating, and what they choose to simplify feeds into what they're trying to accomplish wrt to style and story. Lots of survival games are also simulating. 

The subtext I'm hearing here is that calling a game simulation is low-status or something. We have to protect VS's honor by making a distinction between the kind of simulation it is doing and sim games.

I guess I'll just call it "realism" next time to avoid getting people's hackles up.

Pretty much what Thorfinn said sums up my thoughts as well.

You're being a little dramatic, we just disagree with you, we aren't upset over it.

You and I agree a lot of the time and we have good discussions in general. Can't agree all the time

If we very broadly define sim game, then almost every game is a sim game, they are all simulating something to one degree or another.

Honestly, I am not even sure how this discussion devolved into yet another argument over terminology or why we care. Whatever defines what VS is, I don't think any of us really care, we all just care about VS itself.

 

Edited August 10, 2025 by Krougal

[Echo Weaver]

1 hour ago, Krougal said:

Pretty much what Thorfinn said sums up my thoughts as well.

You're being a little dramatic, we just disagree with you, we aren't upset over it.

You and I agree a lot of the time and we have good discussions in general. Can't agree all the time

If we very broadly define sim game, then almost every game is a sim game, they are all simulating something to one degree or another.

Honestly, I am not even sure how this discussion devolved into yet another argument over terminology or why we care. Whatever defines what VS is, I don't think any of us really care, we all just care about VS itself.

I'm not lastingly upset, but yeah I did get annoyed. I don't see how ventilation is so different from chains of aquifers with water flow by gravity, but I said "simulation" and the conversation derailed (here). If we're going to talk about being dramatic, how did that word jump us from chimneys to wanking?

I was fascinated by the mechanics in the water transport thread as a hypothetical, but when the chips are down, managing air quality in my base sounds fun to me and building extensive structures to transport water does not. 

I like playing VS in part because it feels real. So, whatever fits "feels real" is good. I get that it's subjective. 

Edited August 10, 2025 by Echo Weaver

[Entaris]

Uh...doesn't smoke already have collision in VS?

 

If you just made it last a bit longer, say, until X time or encounters [wind]  you'd basically have what OP is talking about, adding a "if Y amount of [smoke] present in [player space] begin [death]"

Anyway, no dog in that fight. Headcanon for me is "immune to smoke inhalation because Seraph"

[Krougal]

55 minutes ago, Echo Weaver said:

I'm not lastingly upset, but yeah I did get annoyed. I don't see how ventilation is so different from chains of aquifers with water flow by gravity, but I said "simulation" and the conversation derailed (here). If we're going to talk about being dramatic, how did that word jump us from chimneys to wanking?

I was fascinated by the mechanics in the water transport thread as a hypothetical, but when the chips are down, managing air quality in my base sounds fun to me and building extensive structures to transport water does not. 

I like playing VS in part because it feels real. So, whatever fits "feels real" is good. I get that it's subjective. 

Well, he does have a point. Those are realistic things, having them would add realism to the game, but I don't want them in the game either. Even as a mod, I would have zero interest.

Girlfriend simulators I get the biggest laugh out of; all the negatives of having to deal with a woman, and none of the positives. No...thank...you...!

Remember, I am not against the need for proper ventilation in one's base. I think our friend Thorfinn is being a little extreme, as he tends to do, but then I have seen mods in MC that try to do ridiculous things regardless of the consequences, so maybe he is not being unrealistic. Hell, I never even played the mod that got Tyron started and I never had any interest in it, which is funny considering this game in a way is his mod made into a stand alone game.

In theory having to even be mindful of torches in caves and even bring a canary into the coal mine with you would also add challenge, I'd see them as dragging system performance down for not enough value in return. There's also enough challenge to be had in the caves what with mobs spawning all around you out of thin air without having to deal with this on top of it.

I don't think it has to be an all or nothing proposition, just like with the water transport.

Is it performant? Is it fun? Does it make sense in the context of the game? Is it realistic?

Always those questions, in that order.

 

[Echo Weaver]

20 minutes ago, Krougal said:

Remember, I am not against the need for proper ventilation in one's base. I think our friend Thorfinn is being a little extreme, as he tends to do, but then I have seen mods in MC that try to do ridiculous things regardless of the consequences, so maybe he is not being unrealistic. Hell, I never even played the mod that got Tyron started and I never had any interest in it, which is funny considering this game in a way is his mod made into a stand alone game.

On the actual subject of ventilation, we seem to be pretty well aligned.

There actually is a poop mod (the best part is the name) for VS AND a separate pee one by the same modder, so it's not at all unrealistic. I have no intention of playing with them. But what I was actually saying was that all simulations (or realistic game mechanics or whatever) stop when it doesn't make sense. 

20 minutes ago, Krougal said:

I don't think it has to be an all or nothing proposition, just like with the water transport.

Is it performant? Is it fun? Does it make sense in the context of the game? Is it realistic?

Always those questions, in that order.

Which is exactly what I was trying to say. Except for the performant part. I figure that's for other people to figure out. 

Edited August 10, 2025 by Echo Weaver

[Thorfinn]

1 hour ago, Echo Weaver said:

If we're going to talk about being dramatic, how did that word jump us from chimneys to wanking?

Oh, that's what got you all fired up? I was just going for something someone would find realistic that (probably) had not already been made into a mod, and that I would not want added to the game. Trust me, I could have come up with worse.

 

1 hour ago, Echo Weaver said:

building extensive structures to transport water does not. 

Doesn't appeal to me, either. I'd much rather just live where the water is. Admittedly, I did code up something that allowed up to 32 inlets and 32 outlets out of each chunk (which seems like a lot for a 32x32 chunk) that ran like greased lightning over 100,000 blocks, but that was just for grins. Then someone pointed out that a similar mod already existed, and I lost interest completely.

 

21 minutes ago, Krougal said:

mods in MC that try to do ridiculous things regardless of the consequences, so maybe he is not being unrealistic.

Same in minetest. The same has started here. I just roll my eyes when I happen across yet another one.

But I really see nothing fun about ventilation. Just put a chimney on your house and pretend it provides ventilation. Heck, the whole "building" is make believe. It has absolutely no basis in reality, just an ephemeral collection of 1s and 0s. If you can pretend that's a building, what's so hard about pretending the chimney works?

[Echo Weaver]

ANYWAY

26 minutes ago, Krougal said:

Girlfriend simulators I get the biggest laugh out of; all the negatives of having to deal with a woman, and none of the positives. No...thank...you...!

The closest I have gotten to a dating sim is reading reviews of Date Everything. They made me quite sure that I never want to play it, but I do want to read more reviews of the game. They're hilarious.

27 minutes ago, Krougal said:

Hell, I never even played the mod that got Tyron started and I never had any interest in it, which is funny considering this game in a way is his mod made into a stand alone game.

Tyron's original MC mod was about collecting butterflies, wasn't it? That exists in VS too, but I've never been interested in collecting them. I just like watching the butterflies flying around.

28 minutes ago, Krougal said:

In theory having to even be mindful of torches in caves and even bring a canary into the coal mine with you would also add challenge, I'd see them as dragging system performance down for not enough value in return. There's also enough challenge to be had in the caves what with mobs spawning all around you out of thin air without having to deal with this on top of it.

I hadn't been thinking about anything so extreme, but it's entertaining to think about. Performance-wise, I don't know that it would have to be much different from the freezing mechanic, would it? I suppose it depends on how closely one is trying to simulate (lack of) airflow. Like water transport, that could get infinitely complex and resource-intensive.

[Krougal]

1 minute ago, Thorfinn said:

But I really see nothing fun about ventilation. Just put a chimney on your house and pretend it provides ventilation. Heck, the whole "building" is make believe. It has absolutely no basis in reality, just an ephemeral collection of 1s and 0s. If you can pretend that's a building, what's so hard about pretending the chimney works?

Oh, come on now, don't use that cheap argument. I expect better from you.

The entire game is just an ephemeral collection of 1s and 0s. Hell, the real world might be too for that matter. There is no spoon!

What's fun is it would require more care and planning and ingenuity in your base design. Just like the need to illuminate it is an important part of securing it, I don't really consider that fun either by the way, but like you yourself said, sometimes the fun is creating a challenge, like hardcore mode.

By your own admission, you don't enjoy base building at all anyway, so nothing anyone says is going to convince you it might be fun.

[Thorfinn]

3 minutes ago, Echo Weaver said:

Performance-wise, I don't know that it would have to be much different from the freezing mechanic, would it?

It could be trivial in terms of impact on performance. Light already drops off linearly, (yes, I know that's not realistic) so there's no reason oxygen consumption couldn't follow the same "physics". Then treat is just as stability is done. Too close to a torch that can't dissipate and your whatever you want to call it spins counterclockwise, get away from it, it spins clockwise.  It does mean a cellar will not be able to have any torches or lanterns, so there will be spawns. But on the positive side, there is no oxygen to rot your food, either. 

Then again, there's that VLDL skit about excessive meters in games...