The Class System is Controversial, But Any Solutions Are Even More So! Why?

[Bummed_Machinist]

     I think out of any feature, class has the most mixed sentiment about it. There are people who don't like the forced differentiation between players and avoid it entirely, disable all unique recipes, download Xskills as an alternative... then there are people who love the specialization, download more classes, and make the differences even more severe!

    I want talk about this system from the position of "what kind of class system best compliments the already existing structure and progression of Vintage Story?" Because I think being unable to discern THAT in particular, is the reason why discussion of the Class system usually becomes so circular and unproductive.

   So, knowing it's difficult, please try to leave personal preference at the door as we analyze that!

 

    To start from my conception, I have come to the idea that the RPG elements of the Class system are, in certain ways, out of place with the rest of Vintage Story's feel. The core issue is usually said that Negative/Bonus drop rates have a tendency to hamper multiplayer progression (certain players are discouraged from even helping with other tasks because it would be sub optimal). Certain mods have tried to fix this by emphasizing the crafting element; giving certain classes special, more optimized, recipes on certain crafts, but this also has the negative effect of discouraging people from making those crafts until "X" player is online for max efficiency. Some groups do successfully ignore the pressure for optimization, but it is an inevitable part of player psychology that must be accounted for.

 

The Main Point:

     I for one think the proper Vintage Story Class system is impossible to fully implement at the current moment, but would focus less on loot/drops and more on efficiency/speed in real world crafts. One class could specialize in the speed that they harvest crops, instead of the drop rate. Another might have unique in-world patterns for blacksmithing, pottery, knapping. Imagine a version of the game where the Hunter has access to a 3x3 pattern when stone knapping, they would be able to knap easier than anyone else but them having this also don't obsolete other characters who stone craft. The ClockMaker, likewise, could have access to unique smithing patterns only available on certain technical/copper crafts (or if hopper/chute making is ever taken out of the grid, they could have ways to expedite such crafting. In terms of time, not materials saved.)

     I have been trying, aimlessly, to get this out as a proof of concept mod for months now, but it is simply beyond my skill set. So I'll throw the concept out into the public domain hoping it at-least sparks some discussion.

     (Hope everyone has a great day!)

- - -

     Edit: To clarify the post a bit more, I think if you wanted to make a class system that feels like a natural part of Vintage Story in terms of theme, mechanics, and structure, it would have more focus on economic specialty/speed. 

     Drop-rate bonuses/minuses would be removed, there would be no new grid based recipes that save materials (some mods add more efficient recipes to certain classes- e.x. Clockmaker can make windmill parts with less resin and fat,) and all economic bonuses would be speed and in-world based. 

    Examples of what I mean would be faster harvest rates for certain materials, AND ADDITIONALLY, classes in such a system could have exclusive "F-menu" crafting patterns to make certain in-world crafts faster/easier, but which would still require the same amount of resources. In effect, only saving some small amount of time and effort.

Edited August 13, 2025 by Bummed_Machinist
emphasis, wording, clarity, rephrasing.

[Krougal]

I'm of a split opinion over it.

For multi-player? Sure. It encourages team work and roles.

Being able to produce wanted goods creates economic opportunities on larger persistent world games.

Single-player? Meh. I'm not fond of class systems, especially in a game like VS. Add skills and levels and I really hate it.

I just want to experience the game and I don't want some artificial limitation on what I can do. Having to be self-reliant means there is no one else to go to and I don't want to be RNG loot dependent.

 

I think your ideas got some merit though and it would be good to see fleshed out, even as a mod.

[LadyWYT]

7 minutes ago, Bummed_Machinist said:

Some groups do successfully ignore the pressure for optimization, but it is an inevitable part of player psychology that must be accounted for.

Thread in a nutshell, in my opinion. The general default in multiplayer games is to pick the most optimal routes(or what is perceived as such), whether it be for player classes, talents, gameplay strategies, etc. Likewise, not every player has the same preferences when it comes to RPG-style classes, point-buy systems, or just no classes/character progression at all. 

The main advantage to having specific RPG-style classes/roles like Vintage Story has currently, is that those are a lot easier to integrate into the lore, and are probably easier to balance in terms of gameplay as well since you can tweak traits as needed rather than needing to potentially rework entire talent trees. The benefits of a class have their advantages and can change the flavor of the game in a pleasant fashion. Likewise, the drawbacks are enough to change up the gameplay in an interesting fashion, without the game becoming impossible to complete. As for the lore integration...this is how you get NPCs that react to Blackguards and Malefactors differently than friendlier classes.

The main advantage to a point-buy system like XSkills is that players have a lot more freedom to mix and match benefits as they see fit, with the main drawback being that you can't specialize in everything and will have to forgo certain benefits. The other main drawback to this kind of system is that it's very difficult to integrate into the lore, since there is no specific class/role that belongs to the player.

21 minutes ago, Bummed_Machinist said:

I have been trying, aimlessly, to get this out as a proof of concept mod for months now, but it is simply beyond my skill set. So I'll throw the concept out into the public domain hoping it at-least sparks some discussion.

I'd be surprised if a mod could be made that satisfies everyone, when it comes to classes and character progression. Some don't like having to pick a class or skills, and just want to do whatever, unhindered. Some prefer picking a class, because that gives them a specialization and identity in the game that's very different from what other classes offer--you know immediately what to expect from a character just by knowing their class. Some prefer a point-buy skill system due to the freedom of customization it offers, so they can mix and match strengths and weaknesses however they see fit.

As for which option is the best one...that's entirely up to the players to decide for themselves. Servers will adjust settings and add mods as needed to serve the needs of their players. 

11 minutes ago, Krougal said:

Single-player? Meh. I'm not fond of class systems, especially in a game like VS. Add skills and levels and I really hate it.

I just want to experience the game and I don't want some artificial limitation on what I can do. Having to be self-reliant means there is no one else to go to and I don't want to be RNG loot dependent.

This is also why there is the option to turn off class-exclusive recipes--I often do so in my singleplayer worlds.

[Krougal]

2 minutes ago, LadyWYT said:

This is also why there is the option to turn off class-exclusive recipes--I often do so in my singleplayer worlds.

Yeah, it was a good choice to include that option for sure.

Otherwise, I could take of leave the classes. The bonuses and penalties aren't so restrictive that you can't do everything effectively still. Like I barely notice the mining penalty as a hunter, and when switching to melee combat is situationally advantageous I don't feel unduly hampered by that penalty either.

As you mentioned the lore though, yes, having hit up the library finally, and starting to know the lore, it does make the classes that much more interesting. Like I always thought blackguard was an odd name for the soldier class, but after reading the lore it makes more sense.

[Echo Weaver]

FWIW, I basically go with @Krougal. In the private games I play myself or with my teen, I turn off class recipes. When I play by myself, I stay as a Commoner. As soon as I started playing steadily with my teen, we both picked classes that complimented each other, but still with recipes turned off. The buffs/debuffs that come with the class are enough.

On multiplayer servers, the classes are great; they allow for more role differentiation.

35 minutes ago, Bummed_Machinist said:

I for one think the proper Vintage Story Class system is impossible to fully implement at the current moment, but would focus less on loot/drops and more on efficiency/speed in real world crafts. One class could specialize in the speed that they harvest crops, instead of the drop rate. Another might have unique in-world patterns for blacksmithing, pottery, knapping. Imagine a version of the game where the Hunter has access to a 3x3 pattern when stone knapping, they would be able to knap easier than anyone else but them having this also don't obsolete other characters who stone craft. The ClockMaker, likewise, could have access to unique smithing patterns only available on certain technical/copper crafts (or if hopper/chute making is ever taken out of the grid, they could have ways to expedite such crafting. In terms of time, not materials saved.)

     I have been trying, aimlessly, to get this out as a proof of concept mod for months now, but it is simply beyond my skill set. So I'll throw the concept out into the public domain hoping it at-least sparks some discussion.

     (Hope everyone has a great day!)

I'm not sure how this qualitatively differs from the vanilla classes as they exist. All the classes (I think) have specialized recipes. When I play with my kid, I play a Clockmaker and my teen plays a Hunter. I have a tuning spear that only I can use that makes locusts fight for me. Hunters harvest corpses faster. There really should be a Farmer/Gardener class, and I've seen several go by as mods.

The 3x3 knapping grid sounds like an interesting class advantage, but it doesn't seem like one I'd give to Hunter.

[LadyWYT]

2 minutes ago, Krougal said:

As you mentioned the lore though, yes, having hit up the library finally, and starting to know the lore, it does make the classes that much more interesting. Like I always thought blackguard was an odd name for the soldier class, but after reading the lore it makes more sense.

I don't know that every class has unique NPC interactions, outside of a specific instance, but given what I've seen so far a player's choice of class is probably going to have quite a lot of impact on how certain things unfold regarding story and NPC interactions.

 

2 minutes ago, Echo Weaver said:

There really should be a Farmer/Gardener class, and I've seen several go by as mods.

To me, that's already covered by Commoner. However, I could see an Alchemist/Herbalist, or some other class that has farming as its emphasis once the herbalism gameplay loop is developed and added to the game. 

[Bummed_Machinist]

18 minutes ago, LadyWYT said:

I'd be surprised if a mod could be made that satisfies everyone, when it comes to classes and character progression. Some don't like having to pick a class or skills, and just want to do whatever, unhindered. Some prefer picking a class, because that gives them a specialization and identity in the game that's very different from what other classes offer--you know immediately what to expect from a character just by knowing their class. Some prefer a point-buy skill system due to the freedom of customization it offers, so they can mix and match strengths and weaknesses however they see fit.

    Exactly why this thread is "What kind of system would best compliment Vintage Story's established structure/mechanics" and not "what system would people like the best," because while you can get a general answer to the latter, it really isn't as helpful for a game with a very niche, unswerving vision.

That said, you could get around that feeling of Player "limitation," by giving classes no downsides, just niches they excel in (I am speaking with purely speed based/in-world crafting based classes in mind.) But this has it's own implications to consider (The place of the commoner, and so on).

---

To EchoWeaver;

Quote

I'm not sure how this qualitatively differs from the vanilla classes as they exist. All the classes (I think) have specialized recipes. When I play with my kid, I play a Clockmaker and my teen plays a Hunter. I have a tuning spear that only I can use that makes locusts fight for me. Hunters harvest corpses faster. There really should be a Farmer/Gardener class, and I've seen several go by as mods.

The 3x3 knapping grid sounds like an interesting class advantage, but it doesn't seem like one I'd give to Hunter.

Well, the point of current special recipes is that they give you exclusive material benefits (special items no other class can obtain.) The suggestion I gave would only operate in terms of saved time, easier/faster in world crafting, not bonus items/materials. What I implied in my prior post is that this is taking the speed bonuses of default classes and expanding on them, while doing away with drop-rate maluses.

    Classes would then be a decision on what aspects of the game a given player might want to make more relaxed/faster, which would have the side effect of specialization in multiplayer server, without obsoleting other characters from doing those same crafts.

Edited August 13, 2025 by Bummed_Machinist
added reply instead of multi-posing

[LadyWYT]

2 minutes ago, Bummed_Machinist said:

That said, you could get around that feeling of Player "limitation," by giving classes no downsides, just niches they excel in (I am speaking with purely speed based/in-world crafting based classes in mind.) But this has it's own implications to consider (The place of the commoner, and so on).

Aside from Commoner becoming entirely useless outside of being a niche challenge class, the other main issue I see to deleting all the drawbacks and keeping only the class benefits, is that some classes are going to end up entirely too strong...mainly Hunter and Blackguard. If Hunter gets a bonus to ranged accuracy and damage, and a bonus to animal looting, and no longer has a penalty for melee or mining...why would you pick Malefactor, Tailor, or Clockmaker? Blackguard is even worse, since on top of already being the strongest melee with a bonus to armor, a bonus to health, and a bonus to mining, you no longer have to worry about being penalized at range or struggling to secure enough food. It'd be such an absolute powerhouse in combat that it overshadows even Hunter.

The only real crafting-based class I can think of, is the Tailor, just due to the wide array of clothing they can craft. Tailor is also a strange class in that it's very weak compared to the other classes...but that's also somewhat the point and appeal. Tailors are artisans and meant for civilization, not struggling to survive in a post-apocalyptic wilderness--how you manage to survive and thrive when you're completely out of your element?

[Bummed_Machinist]

6 minutes ago, LadyWYT said:

Aside from Commoner becoming entirely useless outside of being a niche challenge class, the other main issue I see to deleting all the drawbacks and keeping only the class benefits, is that some classes are going to end up entirely too strong...mainly Hunter and Blackguard. If Hunter gets a bonus to ranged accuracy and damage, and a bonus to animal looting, and no longer has a penalty for melee or mining...why would you pick Malefactor, Tailor, or Clockmaker? Blackguard is even worse, since on top of already being the strongest melee with a bonus to armor, a bonus to health, and a bonus to mining, you no longer have to worry about being penalized at range or struggling to secure enough food. It'd be such an absolute powerhouse in combat that it overshadows even Hunter.

The only real crafting-based class I can think of, is the Tailor, just due to the wide array of clothing they can craft. Tailor is also a strange class in that it's very weak compared to the other classes...but that's also somewhat the point and appeal. Tailors are artisans and meant for civilization, not struggling to survive in a post-apocalyptic wilderness--how you manage to survive and thrive when you're completely out of your element?

    I get the feeling you aren't looking at my words from my position, when I suggest something like that. Put simply, I would not agree getting rid of maluses with the current class system. I was talking about in the context of a potential class system that best synergizes with Vintage Story's structure/progression (that i previously proposed), where bonuses are primarily crafting/speed based and loot related bonuses/maluses are removed.

    You can still have maluses and bonuses to combat I suppose. I feel I mostly got wrapped up in talking about the economic aspect of class integration; that's where I was coming from when I spoke of removing maluses.

Edited August 13, 2025 by Bummed_Machinist
rephrased

[Echo Weaver]

33 minutes ago, LadyWYT said:

To me, that's already covered by Commoner. However, I could see an Alchemist/Herbalist, or some other class that has farming as its emphasis once the herbalism gameplay loop is developed and added to the game. 

How is the Commoner analogous to a a Farmer class? Commoners don't get bonuses or handicaps on anything. A Farmer class ought to have bonuses on agriculture.

32 minutes ago, Bummed_Machinist said:

Well, the point of current special recipes is that they give you exclusive material benefits (special items no other class can obtain.) The suggestion I gave would only operate in terms of saved time, easier/faster in world crafting, not bonus items/materials. What I implied in my prior post is that this is taking the speed bonuses of default classes and expanding on them, while doing away with drop-rate maluses.

    Classes would then be a decision on what aspects of the game a given player might want to make more relaxed/faster, which would have the side effect of specialization in multiplayer server, without obsoleting other characters from doing those same crafts.

I think I see. So when you say an "exclusive pattern," you don't mean to produce an exclusive item. You mean a way to make the same items more efficiently. I can buy that. For example, the current Clockmaker can repair translocators for fewer temporal gears. One could imagine a tailor recipe that makes leather armor with less leather, but not one that makes DIFFERENT armor.

I don't like the exclusive vanilla recipes in singleplayer, but I'm fine with choosing a specialty that I'm better at that suits my playstyle so long as I'm not cut off from from things.

I don't mine the penalties for each class, though. Trading being better at something with being worse at something else seems reasonable and keeps balance. The loot-based tweaks to classes seem reasonable.

Edited August 13, 2025 by Echo Weaver

[LadyWYT]

6 minutes ago, Echo Weaver said:

How is the Commoner analogous to a a Farmer class? Commoners don't get bonuses or handicaps on anything. A Farmer class ought to have bonuses on agriculture.

Simply because farming was a common profession in medieval times, hence why I associate the Commoner class with farmer. Doesn't mean every Commoner would have been a farmer though.

[Bummed_Machinist]

2 minutes ago, Echo Weaver said:

How is the Commoner analogous to a a Farmer class? Commoners don't get bonuses or handicaps on anything. A Farmer class ought to have bonuses on agriculture.

I think I see. So when you say an "exclusive pattern," you don't mean to produce an exclusive item. You mean a way to make the same items more efficiently. I can buy that. For example, the current Clockmaker can repair translocators for fewer temporal gears. One could imagine a tailor recipe that makes leather armor with less leather, but not one that makes DIFFERENT armor.

I don't like the exclusive vanilla recipes in singleplayer, but I'm fine with choosing a specialty that I'm better at that suits my playstyle so long as I'm not cut off from from things.

I don't mine the penalties for each class, though. Trading being better at something with being worse at something else seems reasonable and keeps balance.

Yes that's sort of it! Though maybe I should edit my original post to be clearer. The concept I was thinking of was less "efficient in materials" and more "efficiency in terms of time." Hence why I said it would be impossible to implement fully in current vintage story. A class, possibly the weaver as you say, could make Leather armor/clothing faster, if said process is given a time consuming in-world crafting system. Also why I suggested the Hunter getting a unique "F-menu" pattern for in-world knapping (the 3x3), it wouldn't have to be that but it was an example (since the hunter would be making flint knives and arrowheads for hunting, why not allow him to make them faster?)

It could give economic specialties that make sense, without making other classes inefficient at the task (less drops, worse crafting results in terms of output). Hence what I meant by not needing maluses, I guess I meant economic maluses, you could still potentially have speed maluses.

I wouldn't want more efficient recipes in terms of materials, like the leather armor recipe you suggested, as I said in the first post, that has the negative effect of discouraging people from making those crafts until "X" player would be online for max efficiency. I am talking making class' economic features more speed and ease of labor based!

[Krougal]

15 minutes ago, Echo Weaver said:

How is the Commoner analogous to a a Farmer class? Commoners don't get bonuses or handicaps on anything. A Farmer class ought to have bonuses on agriculture.

Agreed. Maybe some unique bonus to animal husbandry, which would really give the class some appeal.

7 minutes ago, LadyWYT said:

Simply because farming was a common profession in medieval times, hence why I associate the Commoner class with farmer. Doesn't mean every Commoner would have been a farmer though.

True but, I'd say the function of the commoner is to allow people to opt out of the class system, since it has no bonuses or penalties.

[Thorfinn]

3 hours ago, Bummed_Machinist said:

Some groups do successfully ignore the pressure for optimization, but it is an inevitable part of player psychology that must be accounted for.

True, but IMO, a very minor part. Early RPGs used classes to encourage cooperation. Modern RPGs do it to emphasize differences, to let each player be special. For example, the only reason to ever play a kender is if you want to annoy the other players. Tieflings if you wanted to play up the fiendish aspects, usually with the same effect.

[ArtGnat]

I like a lot of your ideas!

some of my personal thoughts related to classes in game:
I've come to not mind the unique crafts/items the classes currently have when Playing multiplayer (in single player I'd probably turn on the option to allow any class to craft any of those items).
because the items aren't super OP, so they can help give a bit of uniqueness. like the Blackguard's Shortsword. It's better than the Iron Falx, but only by 0.3 extra hp dmg and 250 durability. but then you'd likely still eventually want to upgrade to the Steel Falx since it has 2125 durability and is Tier 5 and only 0.05 less hp dmg than the shortsword 

and there's the Malefactor's Sling. it cost a small pelt, but can use stone/rocks as ammo which is very cheap/easy. its has 300 durability which is better than the simple bow, but it has the worst dmg compared to all the bows. so there would still be a reason for the malefactor to upgrade to a proper bow down the line.

I like these kinds of exclusive crafts that can help make a class feel a little unique, but that isn't OP and that you might end up "upgrading" to a better non-class locked item. These types of items/crafts I think fall in line with the idea of avoiding someone feeling like they need to wait for x person to get on to be extra efficient.
Also the kind of unique crafts like what the Tailor has I'm fine with since I think you can buy/find the same clothing (correct me if I'm wrong) that the Tailor can craft. and regardless the clothes are mostly cosmetic so I'm fine with a class being able to craft those.
and then the Clockmaker's tuning spear/being able to tame a locust I also think isn't too OP and I think is a really cool unique flavor for the class that I fine with it.

Now when it comes to unique crafts that just let you make a normal item but cheaper like in some modded classes. or an Item that is really good that is only craftable by them and there is no equivalent thing better than it that can be crafted by anyone like being able to craft the Paper lantern being locked behind the modded carpenter's class. I'd want an alternative that is less likely to lead to the issue you mentioned about some players with those modded classes feeling like they "have to" wait for x player to get on to craft x thing for them cuz otherwise they feel like they'd be wasting their resources.

So I also like the idea of faster or slower harvesting speeds or ways to make inworld crafting "faster" depending on the class as an alternative to what some mods do like mentioned above. which can help make it possible to add more artisan/profession style classes and or add some of these aspects to the current vanilla classes. I also think we can maybe keep the loot/harvesting drops bonuses of some classes, but just make it a smaller percentage, if we are also adding the "harvest speed" class buffs/debuffs. and I'd probably be also fine with having no loot/harvest drops bonus or debuff if we use this "harvest speed" system instead, but I do know some people like the loot bonuses/debuffs so that's why I thought it can just be minimized. probably would take some trial and error and playtesting to see how I'd feel with zero drop-rate bonuses/minuses.

also one thing that's cool is that there is already a buff/trait that does the harvest speed thing a little bit, although more broadly. and that's the Hardy Trait. which gives +10% mining speed and +5 hp. Maybe a middle ground without needing to write too much code is I wonder if there is a way to create a new Trait that can buff or decrease your mining speed with a specific tool. So maybe the malefactor can have better shovel mining speed, idk.

and not saying your against the things im about to mention, but just that I like them and would want them to stay in my "ideal" version of classes in the game. I like the Traits that minus or give HP, the ones that minus or give walk speed, sometimes even in different situations, and I like the ones that minus or increase the range at which animals detect you. and I think there can be room for more Types of traits along those lines.

That's all my current thoughts about classes right now. if I think of anything else then hopefully I remember to edit this comment and add it.

[ifoz]

5 hours ago, LadyWYT said:

I don't know that every class has unique NPC interactions, outside of a specific instance, but given what I've seen so far a player's choice of class is probably going to have quite a lot of impact on how certain things unfold regarding story and NPC interactions.

Spoiler

From what I've seen, most classes have at least one Nadiyan comment on them, with Sedna commenting on all of them.
Some also get special interactions with their villager equivalent - Blackguards get special dialogue with Nadiyan guards, and the Nadiyan tailor tells the Seraph tailor that the town's got one tailor already and she doesn't intend to give up her job. 

And of course, Tobias' class-specific lore drop. 

 

[Steel General]

I've mentioned before elsewhere, but I won't let that stop me from mentioning again, that I think classes could best be implemented through kit bags.

Give the character another 'clothing' slot for kit bags. Each kit bag has it's own recipe of appropriate items (including at least one 'bag' item); equipping one to the slot makes a set of class traits available. I'd make some more expensive than others, but I'm also okay with the player picking one to start with. Commoner would be the condition of having no kit bag. I'd go ahead and level all adjustments - Commoner would have all the maluses combined and none of the bonuses. I'm also okay with making the player start as a Commoner

A Hunter's kit bag could be pretty simple, uses a hunter's bag, but you're going to need an antler for it. The Tailor and Clockmaker would both have difficult kits to assemble, requiring metalworking, and likely require leather backpacks. The Blackguard's kit is going to need a Blackguard's Pin, found in ruins (maybe bought) and a sturdy leather backpack.

Class-specific items just means equipping the kit bag is part of the recipe. You can carry the others in your inventory if you insist on the flexibility

As for character interactions, much of that can still make sense - I think the traders know you're not one of the original Blackguards, but they can see that you intend to follow their ways and respond accordingly.

[Krougal]

1 hour ago, Steel General said:

I've mentioned before elsewhere, but I won't let that stop me from mentioning again, that I think classes could best be implemented through kit bags.

Give the character another 'clothing' slot for kit bags. Each kit bag has it's own recipe of appropriate items (including at least one 'bag' item); equipping one to the slot makes a set of class traits available. I'd make some more expensive than others, but I'm also okay with the player picking one to start with. Commoner would be the condition of having no kit bag. I'd go ahead and level all adjustments - Commoner would have all the maluses combined and none of the bonuses. I'm also okay with making the player start as a Commoner

A Hunter's kit bag could be pretty simple, uses a hunter's bag, but you're going to need an antler for it. The Tailor and Clockmaker would both have difficult kits to assemble, requiring metalworking, and likely require leather backpacks. The Blackguard's kit is going to need a Blackguard's Pin, found in ruins (maybe bought) and a sturdy leather backpack.

Class-specific items just means equipping the kit bag is part of the recipe. You can carry the others in your inventory if you insist on the flexibility

As for character interactions, much of that can still make sense - I think the traders know you're not one of the original Blackguards, but they can see that you intend to follow their ways and respond accordingly.

Ugh. No, just no.

Had enough of that with the latest 7DTD.

It's been done before, and for some games it's not bad.

I think there was even a MC mod that did pretty much that, and to be honest it wasn't half bad, but I just don't think it would be good for VS.

 

[LadyWYT]

1 hour ago, Steel General said:

As for character interactions, much of that can still make sense - I think the traders know you're not one of the original Blackguards, but they can see that you intend to follow their ways and respond accordingly.

It could, but it would be a pretty significant tone shift, as well as offer inconsistency in the storytelling itself. The NPCs could just react appropriately to whatever kit the player had equipped at the time, but it's going to get a little odd when you're a Clockmaker one moment and a Hunter the next, and I would argue that the player's relation to the story and world-building becomes...inconsequential...as a result.

As for the story's tone...without spoiling too much, the player is a specific individual, with specific traits, that is a specific relic of the Old World. While one could argue that the present day offers a chance to turn over a new leaf, those are not qualities that are simply going to change on a whim.

[ifoz]

9 hours ago, Steel General said:

As for character interactions, much of that can still make sense - I think the traders know you're not one of the original Blackguards, but they can see that you intend to follow their ways and respond accordingly.

Story spoilers, but..
 

Spoiler

You actually are one of the original Blackguards. You're one of the original whatever you are - the Seraphs are humans sent through time when the Grand Machine was activated.

 

[Krougal]

1 hour ago, ifoz said:

Story spoilers, but..
 

  Reveal hidden contents

You actually are one of the original Blackguards. You're one of the original whatever you are - the Seraphs are humans sent through time when the Grand Machine was activated.

 

Yeah, finally going and doing the RA, now that I understand these things, some things make more sense.

Like the class descriptions and the little bits of lore on the different clothes, or the initial awkward conversation with your first trader.

I've started to really gain an appreciation for the lore.

[DFlux]

Responding a bit to the OP

I personally think the classes are mostly fine being slightly better at some things, and only slightly worst at others, without "pidgeon holing" them into specific team-based functions that i'd seen in mmorpgs.  But I also think that if there is a pidgeon holing problem being 'made' on multiplayer, thats also a player server problem, a community problem, rather than just a balance problem.  As such a problem usually just leads to players leaving the server when they are excluded from specific activities because there class selection in any game.  Or they just demand a reroll to another class if they are able to do so or bring an alt in the case of servers/games enabling more than one character.

Then of course theres the "Everyone should have a min/maxed pre-made cookie cutter build or be excluded from all activities" problem that again, the classes baselines don't 100% scream like i've seen in some games(looking at guild wars, most mmorpgs that pushed this mentality).  

But really, if people are discouraging others from taking on certain functions purely because they want one specific person to do that job, based on having a mod like xskills and having maxed metal working or something, I'd be mighty concerned for the health of the community than the game.  It means you have people treating the game like a business and also locking out opportunities which'd limit flexibility.  Its like running a colony in rimworld and allowing only one colonist to do all the crafting, ignoring that theres 5-6 others who could be crafting, and then wondering why the colony is doomed when that one craftsman finally bites the big one and the other craftsmen are all below skill because you in the name of optimization only allowed the one craftsman to do all the crafting.

And then theres the other problem I see and have seen happen:  What happens when all the people qualified for a 'job' are not available and community-requirements get in the way creating a perma catch 22?  I'd seen this happen to guild wars with heroes ascent and other content, where to participate required already having acquired high ranks that can only be acquired by having played the content to begin with.  Such a catch-22 community imposed requirement is doomed to collapse sooner or later(and it did actually collapse sometime after I stopped playing that game). 

"Only Blackguards should be mining, all non-blackguards should be banned from mining!"  What if theres no blackguard players on for weeks and you run out of metal?  Does the server suddenly just decide they must all go back to stone tools?  What about say a rule "Only malefactors and hunters are allowed to farm!"  and no malefactors or hunter players are online for weeks streight?  Whole server starve?   It makes no sense to me.  Seems to be a community problem, rather than a game problem.

Now i'm thinking of starting another world and rolling hunter, and then picking mining and melee talents just to visit on a point with xskills.  Even if something like that would be a bannable offense if I was on a server with a more "stop having fun!"-minded admin.

[LadyWYT]

27 minutes ago, DFlux said:

But really, if people are discouraging others from taking on certain functions purely because they want one specific person to do that job, based on having a mod like xskills and having maxed metal working or something, I'd be mighty concerned for the health of the community than the game.  It means you have people treating the game like a business and also locking out opportunities which'd limit flexibility.  Its like running a colony in rimworld and allowing only one colonist to do all the crafting, ignoring that theres 5-6 others who could be crafting, and then wondering why the colony is doomed when that one craftsman finally bites the big one and the other craftsmen are all below skill because you in the name of optimization only allowed the one craftsman to do all the crafting.

In the case of XSkills, while it is a nice mod in terms of character progression, it also somewhat turns the gameplay into more of an MMO due to how ridiculously good certain talents are. Me and a friend have played with it a time or two on our server, and the other drawback we've found, aside from certain talents overshadowing others, is that it makes it rather easy for players who don't play as much as others to fall behind. It's still a fun mod, but it does change the flavor of the game significantly.

For the vanilla game itself, class choice shouldn't be more complicated other than...how do you prefer to play? A Hunter might get a penalty to mining, but it doesn't mean that you can't send a hunter out to go collect ore--at worst you might miss getting a couple pieces of ore and that's it. Likewise, if a Hunter isn't available to go harvest animals, there's nothing preventing a different class from doing the job instead. They might need to hunt a few extra creatures, but they're capable.

[DFlux]

4 minutes ago, LadyWYT said:

In the case of XSkills, while it is a nice mod in terms of character progression, it also somewhat turns the gameplay into more of an MMO due to how ridiculously good certain talents are. Me and a friend have played with it a time or two on our server, and the other drawback we've found, aside from certain talents overshadowing others, is that it makes it rather easy for players who don't play as much as others to fall behind. It's still a fun mod, but it does change the flavor of the game significantly.

For the vanilla game itself, class choice shouldn't be more complicated other than...how do you prefer to play? A Hunter might get a penalty to mining, but it doesn't mean that you can't send a hunter out to go collect ore--at worst you might miss getting a couple pieces of ore and that's it. Likewise, if a Hunter isn't available to go harvest animals, there's nothing preventing a different class from doing the job instead. They might need to hunt a few extra creatures, but they're capable.

I can see some skills already being power houses as a min/maxer(I even consider min/maxing to be an art btw, and yeah I also say it shouldn't be used as a basis to restrict people) from what i'd seen in my latest world i'd started, I ended up deciding right away to focus on temporal adaptation and metalworker on the blackguard purely from seeing the potential for % stack multiplication against one another.  Heck it seems to me temporal adaptation seems to be a "god stat" skill.

But yeah class choice does seem more in line with playstyle rather than role pidgin-holing.  Playing a hunter doesn't ban you from going into melee when its necessary like some games would, and nothing stops a blackguard from attempting to defeat enemies with ranged attacks.  I think even XSkills though only goes so far, its only big problem is as you mention the mod can cause some people to fall behind on a power curve, which is a problem with the mod itself.  Most games i'd played lately usually add mechanics to help people who aren't as active, like city of heroes has "patrol experience" which accumulates from offline time to grant extra experience, or wows old sleep mechanic(never played that one though, heard to many coming to CoH from WoW being to pushy about class roles, and CoH's community has always been with a stance against pidgin holing, especially with how its support classes are designed(flexible force-multiplication, not healing focused)).

I'd suggest for xskills thread maybe a mechanic for servers to allow exp-bonuses for less active players.  But thats a topic for that thread.

[-Glue-]

I play as commoner with class recipes unlocked. Its a simple life.

Personally, I don't think VS really needs the classes, they really don't have much gameplay to offer other than incentivize large groups to properly play their assigned roles. It can work in those specific situations, but in small groups, or solo, its not even worth having on. Why limit yourself?

I think it would be interesting to have items and artifacts that boost specific traits. So you can make a specific build, but are never locked into that build via skills or traits. Don't want to play as a tank anymore? Just swap out the tank gear for archer gear. Sorta like Terraria accessories, but more subtle. Though, I am not sure how much it would fit into VS. I don't think it should necessarily focus on classes and builds. Instead, just let the player be the player. A few consumable boosts here, a couple trinkets there. Nothing crazy.
However, I am more than content as the commoner with no traits or abilities. Just a guy trying to survive. Classes, skills, accessories, none of that is really needed imo.