1.22's Hide Scraping (Talking about the future of in-world crafting)

[ifoz]

It's been on the roadmap for quite some time that the plan is eventually to do away with grid crafting, and a step towards this was implemented in 1.22 - to scrape a hide, you now have to place it on the ground, hold right click on it with a knife, and wait a few seconds.
(By the way, I'm not talking about smithing and clay forming in this post, since those are both really good examples of the kind of gameplay/engagement I'm talking about).

(Edit: I just realised grid crafting to scrape hides still works. I don't know if that's intended or not though, since it is much easier than scraping them on the ground manually. Maybe it's a sign the current scraping is a placeholder?)



This got me thinking about the future of the in-world crafting systems in the game, and how I hope this mechanic is something of a placeholder rather than a finalised design.
I don't actually dislike this change or anything, I think it makes sense and isn't that annoying. However, I do hope other in-world crafting mechanics are not similar to it.
Scraping the hide on the ground only adds a bit more tedium to the process, since each hide must be placed on the ground and scraped individually, and doing so takes a little bit of time.
I personally feel like this could be a more engaging mechanic if something like a hide rack was added, where players would hang their hides and then play a very basic minigame where they have to move the knife over the hide a few times to scrape it.

Something like this would give a reason for hide scraping to be in-world crafting, rather than being a slightly more tedious version of grid crafting. Having the player actually scrape the hide themselves would add that small element of gameplay to the system, as opposed to just having to press and hold down a button. The current system doesn't really have a reason for why it needs to be done in-world rather than in the grid, and a small minigame would give it that reason.

What I'm getting at is that if other systems were eventually changed from grid to in-world, I'd hope they have some element of interactivity. As a theoretical example, instead of stirring ingredients in a barrel by looking at it and holding down shift and right click, which would feel a little clunky and only add waiting time to the process, players might actually have to interact with the barrel and then move their mouse in circles a few times.



Anyway, let me know what you think! I just wanted to put my thoughts out there on the topic, and how I think in-world crafting could go about being implemented in a way that adds to the gameplay rather than only adding to the time taken. The idea of in-world crafting is so vast, with so many interesting things that could be done, and I'd love to see it given a real reason for being implemented. 
 

(Edit: In the meantime, a way to swap which keybind is used for these in-world interactions would be nice. I bind my sprint to shift and my crouch to ctrl, but having the choice to hold shift instead of ctrl to scrape hides would be more ergonomic. )

Edited yesterday at 06:24 AM by ifoz

[Pascaloubicou]

I was thinking that if you place it on the rack it would be faster than scraping on the ground, i really like this change, it makes my base more alive as i need now to dedicate space to optimize the scraping process, i always try to be creative and improve the feedback of moving around and using my place. There is specialized tools for leather working that could improve the depth and the efficiency of this activity. I don't like grid crafting no more its to simple and not interesting but that my tastes.

[ifoz]

1 hour ago, Pascaloubicou said:

I was thinking that if you place it on the rack it would be faster than scraping on the ground, i really like this change, it makes my base more alive as i need now to dedicate space to optimize the scraping process, i always try to be creative and improve the feedback of moving around and using my place. There is specialized tools for leather working that could improve the depth and the efficiency of this activity. I don't like grid crafting no more its to simple and not interesting but that my tastes.

That'd be fun, I like that idea. Having the rack as an optional upgrade to make the process easier or speed it up a little.
Maybe something like a fleshing tool could be gated behind iron (not really realistic, but just for gameplay balance) and could be used to remove the fur much more efficiently than with a knife.

Edited 20 hours ago by ifoz

[Yerik]

Grid crafting is so... TOBG. I love any step they make towards removing it. I love how immersive this game is. Any step moving closer in this direction is a win for me!

[Pascaloubicou]

14 minutes ago, ifoz said:

That'd be fun, I like that idea. Having the rack as an optional upgrade to make the process easier or speed it up a little.
Maybe something like a fleshing tool could be gated behind iron (not really realistic, but just for gameplay balance) and could be used to remove the fur much more efficiently than with a knife.

Yes there is so much ways of imagining how to speed up a process like this, even durability of the tools used can be a benefice on time. About the gameplay balance, there is a thing i understood from playing multiplayer a lot, plp love buffs and hate nerfs, you can't take back something from them if you give something, good luck taking it back 

Edited 20 hours ago by Pascaloubicou

[Pascaloubicou]

2 minutes ago, Yerik said:

Grid crafting is so... TOBG. I love any step they make towards removing it. I love how immersive this game is. Any step moving closer in this direction is a win for me!

Sry what TOBG mean ? 

[Yerik]

The Other Block Game AKA Minecraft

[Yerik]

It's similar to The One Who Shall Not Be Named, Voldemort, lol

Edited 20 hours ago by Yerik

[Pascaloubicou]

2 minutes ago, Yerik said:

The Other Block Game AKA Minecraft

 

1 minute ago, Yerik said:

It's similar to The One Who Shall Not Be Named, Voldemort, lol

Excellent  and yes that is really similar, i feel the same about it if they manage to remove it will be super !   

[williams_482]

I'd be happy to see hides become ground stackable, so you could put a pile on the ground, scraping them with a knife and picking them up in sequence with minimal added effort. This is in-world so it's more immersive than grid crafting, but still quick and easy. I definitely don't want to be forced to squiggle the mouse back and forth for something I'll wind up doing dozens, maybe hundreds, of times, often in short succession. 

There's a difficult balance to be found with these in-world crafting interactions. Clayforming demonstrates this well: it's great for most things because you only need to make jugs, bowls, vessels, pots, etc occasionally. Repeatedly crafting vessels can get somewhat tiresome, but you generally don't need more than a couple dozen across an entire playthrough. Where it falls apart is with roof tiles, which if you need any, you need a whole bunch, and crafting that many becomes a miserable slog. 

I think it's important when designing these mechanics to differentiate between high frequency and low frequency actions, making the infrequent ones complex and the frequent ones either extremely simple or complex but eventually automateable. Clayforming would be improved dramatically if there were moulds we could craft for the high frequency items like shingles (or bricks, once the grid crafting option is removed) that allow rapid sequential crafting with simple inputs like holding right click with a stack of clay in hand. There's a mod out there that does this reasonably well, although I think it could be better balanced.

Scraping hides, as a high frequency task that will have to be done over and over again for most playthroughs, needs to be more shingle mould than shingle clayform. The alternative is pain. 

[LadyWYT]

9 hours ago, ifoz said:

(Edit: I just realised grid crafting to scrape hides still works. I don't know if that's intended or not though, since it is much easier than scraping them on the ground manually. Maybe it's a sign the current scraping is a placeholder?)

I'm guessing it's probably intended to be a softer transition for players--that is, introduce a more immersive crafting system and let them get used to that first before removing the grid recipes.

 

9 hours ago, ifoz said:

I personally feel like this could be a more engaging mechanic if something like a hide rack was added, where players would hang their hides and then play a very basic minigame where they have to move the knife over the hide a few times to scrape it.

Something like this would give a reason for hide scraping to be in-world crafting, rather than being a slightly more tedious version of grid crafting. Having the player actually scrape the hide themselves would add that small element of gameplay to the system, as opposed to just having to press and hold down a button. The current system doesn't really have a reason for why it needs to be done in-world rather than in the grid, and a small minigame would give it that reason.

I would prefer to see a scraping rack too. 

That being said, the tedium potential for such tasks is why I don't usually advocate for requiring manual processing for things like hides and firewood chopping and whatnot. Oddly enough, the ground scraping didn't turn out to be as bad as I thought, but I still remain skeptical for tasks like firewood chopping especially. The player will use a LOT of firewood over the course of the game, and I really doubt that most players will be very thrilled about needing to stand in front of a chopping block performing the same action multiple times to fill up a charcoal pit and whatnot. Once a sawmill is added, it becomes a more feasible change, since then the player can have a way to make the tedious process much less so. However, that does run into the issue of figuring out how to supply everything with power.

[Blaiyze]

Honestly, with a game that is already tedious (I'm not saying that in a negative way) with the busy work, adding a minigame to non grid crafting would be way too much and would very quickly annoy players. The obsession with mini games for everything to make people feel as though they're doing the work is an overcooked concept in the gaming world, primarily because the mini games aren't interesting in the least, or add an extra layer of tedium for no reason to games where it otherwise doesn't belong. I feel that, as they move towards more in-world crafting it will feel satisfactory as the entire process doesn't need to touch the crafting grid. The grid is faster in some ways, but less engaging. Once the entire leatherworking process can be done in world (and if you use mods like I do, then it already is mostly in-world) you won't feel the need for an extra mini game to make the entire process feel worthwhile/like you did/accomplished something with the work you put in.

Vintage Story is all about the tedium and I like that they've managed to, so far, strike a balance.

Honestly, I already play with as many in world crafting mods as I can get my hands on - it feels far more intuitive than opening a screen and farting around with a grid - which honestly is one of the main reason that TOBG annoys me eventually. The crafting grid was a breakthrough for games because none had done it before. Over time however, it gets annoying and tedious very quickly, having to constantly look up recipes. 

The floor scraping I'm hoping is just step one - it should take a bit longer to do without a stretching frame, and the player could make the frame to scrape hides and it go a little faster. I already play with Ancient Tools which adds a stretching frame and creates a nice process to leatherworking beyond just slapping things into the grid.

Another mod I have allows you to craft tools in world by slapping a stick on the ground and then right clicking with the toolhead then right clicking to pick up the finished tool. Simple, effective, feels a lot better than the crafting grid.

The more they can move away from the crafting grid, the better IMO as I'm thoroughly enjoying the mods that have already given me a bunch of in-world crafting options. There was a mod I used a while back that created a crafting table that you didn't open with a UI screen, you just aimed and right clicked the items into the grid on the table surface - it was a neat go between for grid crafting and in-world crafting. 

Honestly, chopping wood in-world is one of my favourites lol. There's something that scratches my cottagecore homesteady itch about it. But I do also play with increased burn times for firewood so that I don't have to chop an obnoxious amount.

Edited 18 hours ago by Blaiyze

[LadyWYT]

7 minutes ago, Blaiyze said:

The floor scraping I'm hoping is just step one - it should take a bit longer to do without a stretching frame, and the player could make the frame to scrape hides and it go a little faster. I already play with Ancient Tools which adds a stretching frame and creates a nice process to leatherworking beyond just slapping things into the grid.

Out of reactions so I'll leave a comment instead.  But Ancient Tools does add a really nice way of processing hides, along with just adding the alternate tanning process and all the other little goodies that are so very satisfying to use. Though to be fair, the leatherwork process it adds is a bit OP when stacked with the vanilla system, since it cuts the need for lime/borax entirely.

 

9 minutes ago, Blaiyze said:

But I do also play with increased burn times for firewood so that I don't have to chop an obnoxious amount.

Is it the Seasoned Firewood mod? I forget the exact name, but basically it just adds a different category of firewood that burns longer but not as hot. It's a very nice QoL thing, since it makes firewood better for heating living spaces and cooking, but only if the player is willing to put in the effort ahead of time to prepare it. 

[Blaiyze]

41 minutes ago, LadyWYT said:

Out of reactions so I'll leave a comment instead.  But Ancient Tools does add a really nice way of processing hides, along with just adding the alternate tanning process and all the other little goodies that are so very satisfying to use. Though to be fair, the leatherwork process it adds is a bit OP when stacked with the vanilla system, since it cuts the need for lime/borax entirely.

 

Is it the Seasoned Firewood mod? I forget the exact name, but basically it just adds a different category of firewood that burns longer but not as hot. It's a very nice QoL thing, since it makes firewood better for heating living spaces and cooking, but only if the player is willing to put in the effort ahead of time to prepare it. 

Ancient Tools is one of the mods that has made it into my 'must have' list - it's truly Chef's Kiss. But you're right, a touch OP alongside vanilla leatherworking but very nice if you weren't lucky with spawn. Combined with the Butchering mod, it tickles exactly what I wanted.

No it's not the Seasoned firewood mod, it's Jacks Dryable Firewood which for me, just makes sense.

More in-world crafting is the right direction for development to go, which will really set VS even further apart from TOBG.

Edited 17 hours ago by Blaiyze

[Pascaloubicou]

Imagine how by-products could improve the gameplay, recycling stuff, fuel efficiency = less wood chopping = less wood chopping = bored people are less bored 

Currently i trade a lot more for commodities and i love it ! I didn't even mined limestone once in my new world 

 

[Slam]

10 hours ago, ifoz said:

It's been on the roadmap for quite some time that the plan is eventually to do away with grid crafting, and a step towards this was implemented in 1.22 - to scrape a hide, you now have to place it on the ground, hold right click on it with a knife, and wait a few seconds.

The road maps says alternatives to the 3by3 grid, I would highly doubt they could fully replace it, I doubt they intend to, and if they do, we might end up with TOBG stripped logs, very easily to accidentally make. I don’t want to find some high fert soil, go to dig it up, and accidentally turn some into pack dirt.

It the best case the 3by3 could only be used for building blocks, sure place down bricks and then putting mortor on would be cool, but what if it over a ledge, you’d have to place scaffolding, place it, then remove it, or make the bricks, mine them, and then put the blocks there.

Don’t get me wrong its a little lame to work very hard on some armor, then just put all the pieces in grind rather then mainly putting on a jerkin on like a dummies or a sewing bench, and playing sewer will be more interesting then just better gabison (misspelled not gonna try fixing it) and snazzy fits made in a crafting grid.

[TFT]

Tedium is a big worry I have for physical crafting. We already have the slog of making shingles by hand, I am not looking forward to doing that for every other bulk resource. I dont mind tedium so long as there is a more easier/faster way you can do it later, like with the beehive kiln and helve hammer. Depends on what their vision for gridless crafting looks like in the end. I wouldn't mind stations working like querns or cooking pots do where you input a raw item and output the refined product. Gamey sure but this is a game. Would give more functional furniture to put in rooms and buildings too which is cozy. Stuff like immersive fibercraft is what I'd like to see. Implementation of gridless crafting has to be done carefully because I dont see anyone jumping up and down about holding right click to process an item and you get sick of clay forming after making a single roof. It's been fine so far because panning is optional and querns can be automated, but not everything can be automated and most of what we make is in reality labor intensive. Shingles are incredibly dull to make, now what about boards for wood blocks and making cobblestone? If building the rest of the house has the same mind numbing tedium as a shingle roof then it's a huge turn off for anyone wanting to build in survival. People play singleplayer, respect their time.

The knock on effects have to be considered. The new hide scraping is cool and immersive and all, but because of how it works the output of bear hides was nerfed. The recipe has to be "balanced" for this limitation. Bear hides used to produce multiple generic hides depending on the size of the bear. Black bears made two huge, and brown and polar bears made three to match what they dropped in generic before they got unique single hides a few versions ago. Now it's one large hide for black and one huge for brown and polar. At least black bear hides go up to 8 in the barrel to match. I think it would be fine to lose material from "waste" by doing it on the ground, but use something like a tanning rack to get the full amount. Again, tedium and waste should be solvable with technology.

I hope they dont get rid of the crafting grid entirely because it's necessary to have for ease of modding. Requiring a custom process to make simple items would increase overhead on mods by a lot and raise the bar for entry. If you want to add a mortar and pestle do you need a stone or wood carving minigame? What about magic stuff or new machines? Let simple be simple.