Should a melee spear really do less damage than a thrown spear?

[Tabbot95]

On 4/29/2026 at 11:21 PM, Teh Pizza Lady said:

Any argument you could make for thrusting a spear into the side of a bear should come with the requirement that it be made while actually thrusting a spear into the side of a bear in real life. Then and only then you will understand why throwing > thrusting.

I have to side with the devs on this one, no matter what the graphs say. The human body isn't a hydraulic press. It's a bag of fleshy snacks held together with bony toothpicks all wrapped up in a convenient wrapper called clothing and armor. A mere hindrance to the determined predator, really.

okay what if the bear "thrusts itself" onto the spear as I thrust it? 

[Teh Pizza Lady]

59 minutes ago, Tabbot95 said:

okay what if the bear "thrusts itself" onto the spear as I thrust it? 

I'd be more worried about the bears claws at that point.

[OBAMFSpike]

Holy not gonna read all of this! 

A thrown object carries more velocity than a thrust object because it gains energy as it travels until its terminal velocity or gravity dictates its stop. mass comes into the equation now and if the objects are the same the energy expended in a thrust IS NOT EQUATABLE to the energy of a thrown object. The equations do not compute. Another variable ADDING energy does NOT cause less energy. End of lesson. 

(and now ill read it backwards to further confuse oneself with nonsense) 

Edited May 3 by OBAMFSpike

[Fredrik Blomquist]

This is something that been immersionbreaking for me since i started playing the game. Starting it halv-blindly i for a long time avoided throwing any spears. Defending against a wolf throwing your spear seems incredibly stupid. I have previous suggested making two kinds of spear - one javelin and one pike - that way you can explain away the poor damage of the javelin while holding with the shaft being badly suited for stabbing.

Bear and wolf spears are even made with the intent of cathing the velocity of the attacking animal, even further increasing the damage.

12 hours ago, OBAMFSpike said:

Holy not gonna read all of this! 

A thrown object carries more velocity than a thrust object because it gains energy as it travels until its terminal velocity or gravity dictates its stop. mass comes into the equation now and if the objects are the same the energy expended in a thrust IS NOT EQUATABLE to the energy of a thrown object. The equations do not compute. Another variable ADDING energy does NOT cause less energy. End of lesson. 

(and now ill read it backwards to further confuse oneself with nonsense) 

No. A thrown object dosen't gain any energy. It looses energy do to air resistance. It might gain some energy if it's thown downhill. Trusting gives you the advantage of being able to keep add energy to the spear during the stab. If one doesn't believe the study shown above in the thread look at historical use of spears - the only advantage of thrown spears are their reach, thats why most spears have been used handheld.

[Thorfinn]

On 4/27/2026 at 7:22 PM, DeanF said:

No, I have a demanding day job.  And I'm probably too old to learn coding- my brain is not plastic enough any more.

That's crazy talk.

Search files in your install directory for "spear". You will find .\assets\survival\itemtypes\tool\spear.json

Open in your favorite text editor. (I use Notepad++, but even default Notepad is fine.) Read through it for the damage figures. In this case, it's

		// Thrown damage
		damageByType: {
			"*-flint": 4.0,
			"*-obsidian": 4.5,
			"*-scrap": 5,
			"*-copper": 5,
			"*-erel": 5.5,
			"*-hacking": 5.5,
			"*-bismuthbronze": 5.75,
			"*-tinbronze": 6.0,
			"*-blackbronze": 6.5,
			"*-ruined": 6.5,
			"*-iron": 6.8,
			"*-meteoriciron": 6.9,
			"*-steel": 7.0,
			"*-ornatesilver": 7.0,
			"*-ornategold": 7.25,
			"*": 3.0
		},

Set those values to anything that trips your trigger, and test it out. Once you are happy, go to the install directory and run ModMaker.exe. Select option "[1] Create mod from changed vanilla assets." Follow the prompts. It places your mod in your %appsdata% directory. Run ModMaker.exe again, this time selecting "[3] Restore vanilla assets and revert all changes."

Congratulations, modder. 

[Teh Pizza Lady]

43 minutes ago, Thorfinn said:

That's crazy talk.

The actual biology of neuropsychology does not even support this claim. In fact, saying that the brain is not plastic enough any more is just a thinly veiled excuse to get out of trying something new. Too much time and energy has been sunken into this thread that fixing the problem himself is no longer something that OP is willing to concede at this point, I would wager.

He has spouted numerous inaccuracies, many of which have been addressed at length, the most recent of which I have examined being his Level IIIA body armor claims regarding shotgun slugs. Level IIIA stopping a slug is a bare minimum for passing at a certain range with a certain weight slug fired at a certain velocity and striking the armor at a certain location. "Stopping" even is inaccurate because the slug doesn't bounce off, it is allowed to penetrate and deform the surface underneath up to 44mm before it can be considered a failure. Put that armor on your head and shoot it with a slug and you'll find out real fast just how plastic your brain really is! XD

[Thorfinn]

5 hours ago, Teh Pizza Lady said:

The actual biology of neuropsychology does not even support this claim. In fact, saying that the brain is not plastic enough any more is just a thinly veiled excuse to get out of trying something new.

Could well be. Letting your brain go weak is usually a choice.

The day you stop learning something new is the day you start dying. Rage, rage against the dying of the light. 

[OBAMFSpike]

12 hours ago, Fredrik Blomquist said:

No. A thrown object dosen't gain any energy. It looses energy do to air resistance. It might gain some energy if it's thown downhill. Trusting gives you the advantage of being able to keep add energy to the spear during the stab. If one doesn't believe the study shown above in the thread look at historical use of spears - the only advantage of thrown spears are their reach, thats why most spears have been used handheld.

Well, you are right. Grew up shooting archery and there isn't the variable of the bow releasing the arrow or in this case the spear. 

[DeanF]

21 hours ago, Teh Pizza Lady said:

Too much time and energy has been sunken into this thread that fixing the problem himself is no longer something that OP is willing to concede at this point, I would wager.

Still stirring the pot, eh?  Damn, I thought that we had reached an accord, there.  Not to mention, do you always fixate on glib offhand comments like that?  Go touch grass, Lady.

Processing speed, working memory, and attention span all decline with age.  (I can testify to working memory- I keep forgetting where I put things.)  This is so-called fluid intelligence.  No, these aren't "plasticity", but that's the phraseology that seems to be used in lay discussions, and I didn't feel like penning a 20-page footnoted dissertation to get my point across.  My bad?  And no, these are not insurmountable, but they are challenges.  Interestingly, crystallized intelligence increases with age... up to a point.  As I understand it, it turns out that general knowledge and experience do matter a bit.    But I admit that this subject is getting out of my area of expertise, so if you really want to continue to be snippy, here is your chance because I'm not really going to put up a fight.

 

21 hours ago, Teh Pizza Lady said:

He has spouted numerous inaccuracies, many of which have been addressed at length, [...]

Still accusing others of your own shortcomings?  Regarding "inaccuracies" and "addressed", I mean?  I have been quite willing to be critical of my own assumptions- I did so several times, and even told you the ways in which it turned out that you were correct about thrown spears.  Take the win, there.  I mean, really?  Who is entrenching here?

 

21 hours ago, Teh Pizza Lady said:

[...] the most recent of which I have examined being his Level IIIA body armor claims regarding shotgun slugs. Level IIIA stopping a slug is a bare minimum for passing at a certain range with a certain weight slug fired at a certain velocity and striking the armor at a certain location. "Stopping" even is inaccurate because the slug doesn't bounce off, it is allowed to penetrate and deform the surface underneath up to 44mm before it can be considered a failure. Put that armor on your head and shoot it with a slug and you'll find out real fast just how plastic your brain really is! XD

Yes, a standardized shotgun slug is used.  For, y'know, defining standards.    Just like there is a standard ISO 3103 cup of tea (which is horrible tea, actually).  And no, regarding body armor "stopping" does not mean "bounces off".  Yes, deforming armor can still cause injury- I have treated several fellows with rib and sternum fractures... who were alive because the projectile was stopped instead of passing through their body.  Admittedly, those guys wore hard plates, not just soft aramid, and were shot with rifles, but the principle stands.  Almost any rifle round will easily pass straight through the level IIIa soft armor that will stop a shotgun slug, and through the body behind it too, and possibly through the back of the body armor as well.

And you generally don't wear soft body armor on your head- you wear a helmet, for which 44mm of deformation would indeed generally be considered a failure.  IIRC one standard is 25mm (the NIJ standard, I think?) and even less on the crown and sides where the skull is vulnerable.  (EDIT- Yes, I looked it up, the standard is 16mm on those areas, though this can vary by contract.)  And yes, I have seen men killed by deforming helmets.  Which in no way invalidates what I said about armor rating standards. 

So yet again, you are spouting off about a subject with which you have an incomplete understanding.  And I wager that again you will refuse to learn.  Instead of glancing at a web-page desperately trying to find excuses to attack people, ask questions for the love of God!  I'm truly done with you now, though.  Too much bitter contrarianism and entrenchment.

So, how long are you going to keep looking for retaliatory opportunities?

Edited May 4 by DeanF

[LadyWYT]

I suppose now might be a good time to drop a friendly reminder that the Ignore User feature is a thing on the forums. Quite useful for when you encounter other users you just cannot get along with for whatever reason. You can hover over the user's avatar to see the option, or otherwise go to your profile and add them to the list manually.

[Teh Pizza Lady]

1 hour ago, DeanF said:

Still stirring the pot, eh?  Damn, I thought that we had reached an accord, there.  Not to mention, do you always fixate on glib offhand comments like that?  Go touch grass, Lady.

Processing speed, working memory, and attention span all decline with age.  (I can testify to working memory- I keep forgetting where I put things.)  This is so-called fluid intelligence.  No, these aren't "plasticity", but that's the phraseology that seems to be used in lay discussions, and I didn't feel like penning a 20-page footnoted dissertation to get my point across.  My bad?  And no, these are not insurmountable, but they are challenges.  Interestingly, crystallized intelligence increases with age... up to a point.  As I understand it, it turns out that general knowledge and experience do matter a bit.    But I admit that this subject is getting out of my area of expertise, so if you really want to continue to be snippy, here is your chance because I'm not really going to put up a fight.

 

Still accusing others of your own shortcomings?  Regarding "inaccuracies" and "addressed", I mean?  I have been quite willing to be critical of my own assumptions- I did so several times, and even told you the ways in which it turned out that you were correct about thrown spears.  Take the win, there.  I mean, really?  Who is entrenching here?

 

Yes, a standardized shotgun slug is used.  For, y'know, defining standards.    Just like there is a standard ISO 3103 cup of tea (which is horrible tea, actually).  And no, regarding body armor "stopping" does not mean "bounces off".  Yes, deforming armor can still cause injury- I have treated several fellows with rib and sternum fractures... who were alive because the projectile was stopped instead of passing through their body.  Admittedly, those guys wore hard plates, not just soft aramid, and were shot with rifles, but the principle stands.  Almost any rifle round will easily pass straight through level IIIa soft armor that will stop a shotgun slug, and through the body behind it too.

And you generally don't wear soft body armor on your head- you wear a helmet, for which 44mm of deformation would indeed generally be considered a failure.  IIRC one standard is 25mm (the NIJ standard, I think?) and even less on the crown and sides where the skull is vulnerable.  (EDIT- Yes, I looked it up, the standard is 16mm on those areas, though this can vary by contract.)  And yes, I have seen men killed by deforming helmets.  Which in no way invalidates what I said about armor rating standards. 

So yet again, you are spouting off about a subject with which you have an incomplete understanding.  And I wager that again you will refuse to learn.  Instead of glancing at a web-page desperately trying to find excuses to attack people, ask questions for the love of God!  I'm truly done with you now, though.  Too much bitter contrarianism and entrenchment.

So, how long are you going to keep looking for retaliatory opportunities?

Yes, your lab tests were very standardized. Which is exactly the point I was making and you missed it. The fact that you had to specify standardized slugs, specific ranges, specific velocities, specific strike locations, and specific armor types to make your point... is exactly my point.

Real world scenarios are too complex and too variable-dependent that they cannot be cleanly modeled in a video game, which is why it shouldn't even try.

That is why spears sit in that space between specialized melee weapons and specialized ranged weapons. Spears are given a boost in ranged damage to compensate for their added windup/aiming time. The melee damage was nerfed because people were using spears instead of actual melee weapons. The windup/aiming time was added because people were using spears instead of actual ranged weapons. If we were to implement your proposed changes, we would be undo-ing all the balance work the devs have performed on them.

The only reason I keep coming back to this topic, besides feeling very strongly about the spear balance, is that this conversation has happened at least three times on this forum before and it always ends badly. We're too deep into it now to just walk away cleanly. Which is a thin hint that you may be right in some places (and I do concede that) but there is still a hard line in the sand, and we can't cross back over it.

Do what Thorfinn said to create your own mod to balance the spears the way you want in your own game. Make it as realistic as possible. Then do the scientific thing and write down which weapon you tend to reach for first. Make a note of why. Come back and report your findings. I have a guess what your reply will be. Hint: It won't be the falx.

Sometimes things are just better left alone despite knowing better. My partner doesn't get mad during hospital scenes in movies even though they do everything wrong and she's a nurse. I don't get mad during bad hacking or computer operation scenes in video games even though they're unrealistic and poorly acted.

Sometimes when things have drifted so far beyond what you KNOW to be true in your own mind, you just have to let it go and enjoy it for what it is. My advice to you, speaking as a fellow neurodivergent, is to take a deep breath and get used to things being inaccurate in video games.

1 minute ago, LadyWYT said:

I suppose now might be a good time to drop a friendly reminder that the Ignore User feature is a thing on the forums. Quite useful for when you encounter other users you just cannot get along with for whatever reason. You can hover over the user's avatar to see the option, or otherwise go to your profile and add them to the list manually.

Good advice. I'm dropping this thread and no longer responding to any replies. There's nothing more that can be said by anyone now at this point moving forward, without pushing the issue into personal attacks.

[DeanF]

5 minutes ago, LadyWYT said:

I suppose now might be a good time to drop a friendly reminder that the Ignore User feature is a thing on the forums. Quite useful for when you encounter other users you just cannot get along with for whatever reason. You can hover over the user's avatar to see the option, or otherwise go to your profile and add them to the list manually.

Oh, I already reached for it...

[Tabbot95]

On 5/2/2026 at 7:02 PM, Teh Pizza Lady said:

I'd be more worried about the bears claws at that point.

depends on the spear length