Detailed Spinning and Weaving Proposal

[David Stark]

I've been reading a history blog series about cloth production, and based on this, I'd like to propose mechanics for spinning and weaving.

This proposal specifically ignores questions of clothes crafting and dyes. It's entirely about how to move the flax -> linen crafting away from grid crafting. It creates three tiers of crafting efficiency: handheld, advanced, and powered.

Spinning

There are two ways to turn flax into thread: spindles and spinning wheels.

Spindles are items crafted using a stick, a block of wood, and a knife as a tool. When equipped, you can hold down the right mouse button to slowly convert flax from your inventory into twine. This is a slow process: one twine takes 15 seconds to complete. However, because it's a portable tool, you can use it during any dead time such as cooking, waiting for dawn, etc. Which is exactly how spindles were used.

Spinning wheels are crafted using some planks, a block of wood, and a knife as a tool. They are exactly analogous to a quern: they can be loaded with flax and operated to produce thread. One thread takes only 5 seconds to complete, but now it's stationary, so less suitable for filling dead time. And of course, like a quern, it can be mechanically powered.

Weaving

Basically same as above: backstrap looms and mechanical looms.

Backstrap looms are items crafted from some sticks and thread. You can equip them and hold down RMB to slowly convert twine into linen, again taking 15 seconds to complete per square of linen.

Mechanical looms require planks and a metal plate, and are analogous to a quern, including the ability to be mechanically powered.

[Soliton]

Tool, weapon, and armor durability is a significant driver for the gathering of metal ores and their refining.  What will be the corresponding use to make it worthwhile to not only continually produce textiles but to do so with increasing efficiency?  While clothes currently wear out, it is not at a high enough rate to warrant an entire support infrastructure.  The next biggest textile item is the sails on the windmills.  Should they degrade over time?  

In 1.15 there is some discussion that rope will become a item in the game.  If rope could be used as a alternative form of mechanical linkage, then its constant production and need for improved forms would be a reasonable driver. 

On a TV program similar in nature to the one you referenced, it asserted that the origin of tapestries was as a rudimentary form of insulation in cold stone castles.  Maybe a similar mechanic could be created.  If it can, then wall coverings and curtains could be a significant value.

Also, making a bed should be more than 3 hay bails, one piece of fabric, and 6 x planks.  Maybe a bed should be three items; a pillow (3 x fabric and 1 stack of feathers), a mattress (18 x fabric/3 stacks of feathers/6 x planks), and a blanket (18 x fabric).

Edited April 17, 2021 by Soliton

[David Stark]

Agreed on all points.

Having windmill sails degrade over time would make a lot of sense. Right now, windmills are something that takes a fair amount of work to set up but then none to maintain. (Similarly, having axles and gears slowly degrade over time would also be good, so you have to occasionally maintain your mill. Again, right now you need all this stuff to set it up and then it just runs forever.)

Instead of changing the rate at which clothes wear out, you could reduce the amount of clothes repair caused by using twine and linen. So there's still the same grace period until your clothes need repair, but once they do, it's more expensive.

Craftable tapestries and rugs could link into existing room identification mechanics and produce insulation effects.

I also thought that having a feather bed as a 3rd tier bed that requires a lot of fabric and a lot of feathers, but keeps you a bit warmer at night would be good.

Edited April 17, 2021 by David Stark

[Soliton]

Entropy, as previously mentioned, exists in VS and serves as the primary driver for most of the metal work done.  So the question is what other areas do we expand this mechanic and then how do we balance it so as to not make base maintenance game breakingly (yes, I know that's not a word) grindy?  Obviously it depends on what is degrading over time and the following are examples of things that tend to fail in the real world:  doors, gates, wooden fences, ladders, windmill blades and rotating mechanism, wooden shafts, gears of all varieties, any block used in automation (brakes, clutches, screws, pulverizers, helm hammers), glass panes, paths, and items (i.e. clothes, tools, weapons, and armor).

While not technically correct, enthalpy can be thought of as the amount of work necessary to maintain a system in a steady state.  So maybe the game needs enthalpy or "Keeper" NPCs.  For Keepers that monitor blocks they would sense four things in the game within a specified volume (7x7x7?).  One a repair chest where components are stored (i.e. a representative item from the original crafting recipe).  Two, the degradation values of blocks in that volume.  Three, a bed unique to that Keeper.  Four, a "read only" chest that also unique to that Keeper and must be kept stocked with food and some form of reoccurring payment (i.e. 1 gear every 4 months).  To make it even more realistic, Keepers could have classes so you don't stick everything in one room or if you want one Keeper to cover blocks like fences or paths in a large volume (probably specified by the land claim function).  It would probably also be good to only allow one Keeper in a specified volume (a distance from the Keeper associated bed).

Keepers would monitor degradation values (once daily?  Maybe twice?) and consume the associated component from the repair chest to lower that value.  If the repair component is not in the associated chest, a message is posted at some rate (daily?) into the chat and will until the repair component is placed into the chest or the block breaks and is deleted from the game.  The Keepers also monitor the amount of food available in their chest.  If food (daily) or payment (quarterly) is zero when the Keeper checks then that Keeper moves on to a more reliable employer and all items in "read only" chest are deleted.  Note, better quality beds could be used to lower food consumption rates.

Initial or replacement Keepers would be created by placing a "Help Wanted:  <class>" sign next to the bed and associated "read only" chest in which must have food and a gear in it.  Alternatively, there could be a fifth item that the Keeper senses and that would be a class associated workbench that must be placed the previously specified volume.

For Keepers who repair items (i.e. clothes, tools, weapons, and armor), they would monitor the repair chest and check the durability of any items placed into it.   If less than 100%, they would consume the associated component the item's durability would increased accordingly.

The balance struck in this suggestion would be between the need to feed and pay the Keepers as opposed to the effort associated with having to check dozens (or even hundreds) of blocks current durability.

While implementing this idea could be so computationally intensive that it makes the game unplayable, VS already has mechanics that cause this effect.  The user could select what blocks/items are subject to enthalpy (i.e. only ones associated with automation) depending on their computer's processing power.

 

Edited April 17, 2021 by Soliton

[RobinHood]

Sorry, I don't want made a new thread, but what about wood turning too? Maybe someone will have nice ideas, what we could to with woodturning. Windmill (later Watermill too) can give the power for a medivial wood turning maschine. Maybe with a woodturning maschine we could produce better spears, maybe better arrows (not in power, but better in flight behavior)? And nicer decorative, round woodthings, faster than only by chissel.  Just an idea.

For woodturning you should also use the chissel + the woodturning-maschine.

Edited April 17, 2021 by RobinHood

[Thalius]

I'd love to see the OP suggestion work it's way into the game eventually. I have nothing to say to add anything to that- it would be a fantastic addition, and anything that moves us away from the crafting grid to something more immersive and enjoyable gets a thumbs up from me.

On the other idea raised in this, the idea of things degrading over time: I think if it is made an option that can be toggled on and off and be configured to customize rate of item degradation then fantastic. Personally, I'd turn it on in my server as soon as it became available.  I think this might be a tough one to balance though. It could be done, I am sure, but it would need to be done with care. Not all things that should wear out, should wear out at the same rate, and should only wear out with use.

An axle should probably last a very long time, if made from the right wood (but adding attributes to wood types is a different discussion). Wood gears however should wear down at a pretty steady rate, but only with use. An axle, which should last longer, and a gear, which should wear out faster, each would need some sort of timer attached to them that essentially counted down- and the rate at which the timer counted down would be determined by if and how fast the windmill was turning.

Tapestries hung under a roof should last forever, but left out in the elements or rugs that are always walked on should take damage and need repair or they turn to tattered rags and fall apart.  Even with that- they should last a LONG time.

Beds should require a bed frame and a mattress- two items crafted separately.  Bed frames would last forever, but mattresses and pillows (another separate item that can be added to a bed to increase comfort and sleep time, would wear out with use. If not repaired, one would find themselves waking up to a bare bed-frame.

All that to say-

I think adding a state of general decay to appropriate game elements would be a game changer in a good way if done right, especially for multiplayer environments.  It would be an entirely new sub system to the game though, and one that would could easily be done badly. 

If done right though, it could give an option to a server that could bring an added level of maintenance to the game world which could deepen the experience, and provide a need for various ongoing industries to supply resources needed for upkeep as well as expansion of various game elements.

The idea probably needs it's own suggestion thread, honestly. A lot could be said on this topic.

~TH~

[David Stark]

It occurs to me that this hand tool category could also be extended to other things. Specifically, people were able to grind things long before the invention of querns using a hand mortar.

[evan37]

I like the proposal.  Cloth production is a huge iron age industry.

If we have a well-developed tool chain around cloth and a progression system around its production, then other fabric types such as wool or silk become more justified.  Goats are good, but white English sheep would be a great addition to the husbandry system.

Dyeing follows naturally.  Fur follows naturally.  Both could be components of advanced clothing making.

I could also foresee a system for cultivating silk worms.

Clothing could degrade, but tapestries and carpets perhaps do not.

We could start a mod project to develop this idea into the game, if you like.

[AngryRob]

On 4/16/2021 at 11:23 PM, Soliton said:

Tool, weapon, and armor durability is a significant driver for the gathering of metal ores and their refining.  What will be the corresponding use to make it worthwhile to not only continually produce textiles but to do so with increasing efficiency?  While clothes currently wear out, it is not at a high enough rate to warrant an entire support infrastructure.  The next biggest textile item is the sails on the windmills.  Should they degrade over time?  

In 1.15 there is some discussion that rope will become a item in the game.  If rope could be used as a alternative form of mechanical linkage, then its constant production and need for improved forms would be a reasonable driver. 

On a TV program similar in nature to the one you referenced, it asserted that the origin of tapestries was as a rudimentary form of insulation in cold stone castles.  Maybe a similar mechanic could be created.  If it can, then wall coverings and curtains could be a significant value.

Also, making a bed should be more than 3 hay bails, one piece of fabric, and 6 x planks.  Maybe a bed should be three items; a pillow (3 x fabric and 1 stack of feathers), a mattress (18 x fabric/3 stacks of feathers/6 x planks), and a blanket (18 x fabric).

 

Why not allow temporal stability glyphs on tapestries, that prevent drifter spawns during temporal storms? each storm wears down on them, until they become completely useless. This would be the need for that industry. Also maybe allow better crafting options? instead of just a stick and a tool head, it is now a stick, tool head, and the handle is wrapped with twine to make it more sturdy and allow better grip. As for insulation, i am not sure how far tyrone wants to go into the programing, as that is approaching stationeers level of  feature creep. However, if villagers are added to the game, i can see them wanting to buy clothes, so a clothes industry between players and villagers would be neat. 

Another concept would be sails. Sails would get damaged frequently, so that would require a large scale industry to repair them. Also making linen a requirement for higher tier items would be an excellent gate that would not be too restrictive and would be fun. 

 

the key word, is fun. if a proposal is not fun, it should be tossed in the trash. 

[Brynn Bernstein]

I think if multiblock ships become a thing, they'll probably also need an impressive amount of rope and linen sails, and players would certainly appreciate the high speed movement that a sailing ship would provide especially if an seafaring update made oceans hard to cross in little player sized boats. I also think that a lot of players might be inspired by the opportunity to create colored and patterned sails, and to mark groups on a server with colored banners, capes, and flags (much like minecraft flags are used for) and enjoy having the ability to customize their character with different colored knit or woven clothes, so I think a robust dye system would be a must have if players are going to be spending a lot of time insulating their homes with tapestries, travelling by ship, and making clothes. Furthermore, finding dyes might involve travelling by ship, meaning more sails and ropes, meaning more need for spinning and weaving.

As for adding wool-giving sheep and silk worms, I think it's a good idea especially if creatures become more restricted by biome as more creatures are added. I also think cotton could be a good addition alongside flax (especially if it didn't rely on the same nutrient as flax). A third plant-based material could be hemp. I like having lots of options so that I'll be sure to find something! (I wish there were more options on limewater for the leathermaking process.)

I do worry things would overfill chests with many kinds of fabric (wool, silk, linen, cotton, and hemp, each in pre-thread, thread, fabric, and finalized forms like sails/banners/tapestries, and with each of the processed states in any of the dyeable colors or patterns). Maybe to combat that stack size would be especially high, which seems fair since a lot of string/yarn can be wrapped up onto one spool, and a lot of meters/yards of fabric can go on one bolt? Plus, that would make automation a lot easier, since the 64 stack size maximum on the everything the quern makes just hooking it up to a windmill take a lot of attention before you have the copper for the hoppers. An automated spinning wheel or loom that could be left alone with a single hopper feeding a whole chest of material in and not have everything fall out and despawn because the single output slot holds 1000 units of thread/fabric would be a nice convenient early midgame way to get the most out of one windmill that would also make it easier to get more windmills and better automation.

[David Stark]

So I admit my idea of fun is often "more difficult", but here's technically another item that needs cloth: proper torches.

Stack size for fabrics should be very high because it *is* very high IRL.