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Rifles/Firearms


TSense
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Hey, got the game a few days ago and seems pretty cool this far. The cross between Minecraft and Don't Starve is exactly what I was looking for, and it seems like Hypetale still needs a few years.

Long story short: To fulfill my escapist/off the grid fantasy and live on a ranch in no man's land I still need the tool that won the west, the torch of the frontier, The Gun.

Search turned up a few rough ideas on the forum, one mod that adds an Arquebus that may or may not work with the current version, but nothing of substance. I also found out today that blasting powder is in the game. I know little about codes and I work 50 hours a week, so I cut a long story slightly less long and just gonna ask who I need to pay to get what I want (because that is how money works). Might as well go to the developers first for a semi-official mod, considering that these weapons don't fit the setting at all.

A little about myself, I consider Firearms to be pieces of art first and a tool of survival second. A Rifle should spend most of its Life above a Fireplace and should be made from Metal and Wood. Yes, I like Steampunk and no, I don't think any part of a Firearm should be black, painted or otherwise.

I consider 3 tiers of Weapons:

• Flintlock Musket, the early game you-shouldn't-reload-during-battle weapon that you first start using bronze, fails when wet

• Over/Under Double Barrel, the mid-tier 2-shot that you actually can reload in a reasonable manner. Maybe made from Iron?

• The Lever Action, the endgame load-Sunday-and-shoot-all-week 12 round Rifle. I think this game has steel so might as well use that.

I suppose a single round for all 3 weapons would be the easiest ammo solution, so might as well load Shotgun Slugs into all 3 (I know it doesn't make that much sense). But the game seems to support different ammo types, so might as well add classic Shotgun Rounds too (again, one type that fits all 3). Ammo shouldn't be hard with the mold system in place, the Arquebus guy managed to do it. Chasing made from copper (soft metal), Slugs made from lead (hard metal), Shotgun Grain from Stone Gravel (good enough, maybe just granite?), Blast Powder is already in the game.

Setting together a Firearm can be even more overcomplicated than pottery, almost like a (mini) quest. After all you are only doing it once per weapon. A well-kept (fatted/oiled) firearm lasts forever. But I just unlocked the Copper Pickaxe, so I am in no position to judge. I am not far enough in the game to unlock what I am asking for.

So hopefully in 9 to 12 months from now I can ride out with my dogs and shoot some ducks wolves around my Farm. (Riding is already planned, right?)

@ Mods If I managed to post this Topic in the wrong part of the forum, please move it where it belongs. I am both suggesting something for the Dev Team AND asking for a mod to be created (be it by a Dev or someone else). Also if I managed to break any rules on my first post please ban me right away

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The dev team has previously stated that firearms will not be implemented into the game. While of course opinions and priorities can change over time, consider this a topic of "not ever gonna happen" until we learn otherwise. They will remain something for mods to concern themselves with.

This mod works fine in 1.16.x last I checked. Perhaps you can talk to the modder about your ideas? Just be aware that a.) your chances are much, much higher if you can supply models, textures and/or code yourself; and b.) keep in mind what's period appropriate.

Vintage Story's world is set in something vaguely resembling the late 1600's to early 1700's. That's at least a hundred years too early for lever action firearms, percussion caps, or smokeless powders. Rifled barrels, breechloading, and repeaters had technically been invented, but used only in custom-crafted designer weapons for the rich, if at all; they were not widely known, not produced in series, and not used for warfare. This was firmly an era of blackpowder, muzzle-loading, single-shot, smoothbore firearms. The flintlock was coming into its own around that time, but wasn't yet the refined, perfected and reliable mechanism it was around the turn of the 1800's. Matchlocks and wheellocks would still have been seen. Indeed, I think the wheellock is probably the most appropriate ignition system for Vintage Story, as it's a clockwork mechanism. It just fits thematically! You could use the existing ingame 'metal parts' item to make a crafting recipe for the lock, as it's a somewhat rare but not too hard to get loot item and represents some generic gear mechanism.

EDIT: if you want to see a period- and theme-appropriate work of art, take a look at this marvel from 1625 :) This is of course not representative of the common gun at the time, but rather something a dedicated master craftsman could make if time and money was no object. Still, what a piece!

 

Edited by Streetwind
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On 7/5/2022 at 12:54 AM, TSense said:

Flintlock Musket, the early game you-shouldn't-reload-during-battle weapon that you first start using bronze, fails when wet

That's not an early firearm, that's already an quite advanced one, though even earlier ones like the arquebus might not be viable firearms for player characters. The musket could take blast powder and lead balls as ammunition and would be "accurate" on distances less than 10 blocks (meaning the spread should be about 1 block for each 10 blocks). The barrel would be from cast bronze or iron with a stock made from a board and a reload stick made from cloth and a stick. Could come as pistols too, with a malus to effective range of 50%. Could use paper "casings" for faster reload but even then, would need to be dried and reloaded after getting wet.

Several versions of shotguns could be next, single or double barrel, possibly even more (before the invention of drums and clips to add more shots you added more barrels), at this stage ammunition would have to be crafted with a casing made from copper or brass (and wax or fat for sealing several casings at once, idk maybe 6), blast powder and either pellets (could just be lead, copper, iron or steel bits) or lead balls and each barrel made from iron or steel. Balls would basically work as before (but with a higher effective range, maybe 20 blocks), pellets would result in an aoe in form of a cone with damage lowering the further away the target(s) are (up to the effective range) OR it could work similar to Minecrafts explosions, casting several rays damaging whatever is hit by those rays.

Next would be revolver based weaponry, rifles and pistols. Ammunition would be made from casings, blast powder and rounds, rounds can be either cast from copper or lead or smithed from iron or steel. The weapons would be crafted from a rifled barrel (or a shotgun barrel, the barrel type would dictate which ammunition is used), a drum and either a rifle or pistol frame. Rifled barrels would have to be smithed from steel. The rifle form would have an effective range of over 30 blocks (spread of less than a block per 30 blocks distance) the pistol half of that. Drums could be smithed in different capacities (maybe 2x 6 chambers or a 12 chamber drum for a steel ingot and a 24 chamber drum for 2), the smallest drums might be easily replaceable for reloading fast, pistols would only be able to take the smallest size.

Balls could do high damage (I'd say 10) though are considered tier 2. Pellets are considered tier 1 and could do either little damage (around 10 divided by the number of rays) for each ray or the ball's damage at the origin of the cone lowering linear until it reaches 0 at the effective range. Rounds could do medium damage (maybe in the vicinity of 8 ) but being considered tier 3. Different materials could change tier and damage of the attack with lead being considered the baseline, copper would be the same tier but damage +1, iron would be considered tier +1 and damage +1 and at last steel would result in tier +1 and damage +2.

 

16 hours ago, Streetwind said:

Vintage Story's world is set in something vaguely resembling the late 1600's to early 1700's.

The goal for tech development is steam age (with trains and possibly airships) hence we'd be somewhere in the late 1800's to early 1900's in the end. Therefore firearms would make sense but I can understand not to add them too.

Edited by Hal13
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7 hours ago, Hal13 said:

The goal for tech development is steam age (with trains and possibly airships) hence we'd be somewhere in the late 1800's to early 1900's in the end. Therefore firearms would make sense but I can understand not to add them too.

Eh, I intentionally said "vaguely resembling", because this is clearly an alternate timeline, or even an entirely different world from our own. Things would not necessarily have been developed at the same time. IRL, the first steam engines were being tinkered with in the early 1700's, although it would take quite a while longer for them to be good enough for widespread adoption. But this world clearly has a mechanical focus, as we see not just from Vintage Story's general theme, but also from the lore bits we find throughout the game. Especially in the final days before the apocalypse, there was a big push towards inventing/building something incredibly advanced. It's conceivable that they developed practical steam engines earlier than we did.

I hesitate to call the world more advanced than the equivalent of the early 1700's, though, because of its reliance on clearly medieval era weapons and armor, the primitive steelmaking process they employ, and other such things. Even without firearms, a society nearing industrialization would be expected to focus on crossbows, sabers, and fencing swords - weapons which replaced their predecessors mainly for societal and cost-effectiveness reasons. Similarly, cementation is too slow and inefficient to produce the amount of steel needed to support an industrial revolution.

Meanwhile, I suspect that the decision to not include firearms in the game at all has little to do with the available technology in the world. IRL, people were shooting bullets at each other by the 1300's (though those weapons didn't have much to do with modern guns yet). No, it's likely either an ideological decision (meaning the devs really don't like guns) or a gameplay design decision (meaning that combat is meant to be mainly melee by design). I don't know for sure, of course, but those are reasons I can imagine.

 

Edited by Streetwind
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4 hours ago, Streetwind said:

Even without firearms, a society nearing industrialization would be expected to focus on crossbows, sabers, and fencing swords - weapons which replaced their predecessors mainly for societal and cost-effectiveness reasons.

5 hours ago, Streetwind said:

Meanwhile, I suspect that the decision to not include firearms in the game at all has little to do with the available technology in the world. IRL, people were shooting bullets at each other by the 1300's (though those weapons didn't have much to do with modern guns yet). No, it's likely either an ideological decision (meaning the devs really don't like guns) or a gameplay design decision (meaning that combat is meant to be mainly melee by design). I don't know for sure, of course, but those are reasons I can imagine.

Possibly those types of weapons aren't needed by the post apocalyptic society, even barehanded traders are far more dangerous than wolves, there could be too few people to spark big conflicts (meaning anything not usable for hunting is basically meaningless most of the time, and without large scale warfare no huge steps in weapon progression), resources and fertile land possibly aren't scarce enough to fight over and monsters only start spawning after seraph enter the world and only as long as they stay.

The current steel production and other mechanics might be added on later on the road, similar as with casting tools and smithing them, there could be other ways to make steel in the future. I'm quite sure Tyron did mention trains and airships as the steam age tech they intend to implement at some point, as such I do assume techlevel to be comparable to the time when those things were widely built.

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Maybe we should & can build only primitive firearms like in the 17th century, but in deep caves / cave ruins, maybe you can find a very seldom treasure a very good, modern rifle (for example - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sniper_rifle) and a small amount of amunition, but you never can rebuild this rifle by crafting and you are not able to craft rifle ammunition.

Edited by RobinHood
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So I had two ideas this week sitting at my desk.

1. I order to avoid a magazine system, which the game itself doesn't have at the moment and we want to keep it simple code and gameplaywise, we can just not pre-load our weapons. Taking the Lever Action as an example, selecting it in the hotbar starts with the Long Animation (fully reloading), and after each shot a Short Animation (Terminator Leverspin). Just count and repeat the Long Animation after every 12th shot. Select a different item for one second and switch back? To bad, you are starting with the Long Animation again. Remember, Form over function.

2. We currently have 5 items on this site's shop page. We might as well vote for what we want with our money. Not DLC that everyone has to pay for, but Development of FM-OU-LA Firearms which is free for everyone once it is created, crowdfunded over a productless Item in the Shop with the Name your Price Pricetag

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On 7/10/2022 at 1:48 PM, TSense said:

which the game itself doesn't have at the moment

That's not fully right, we are able to only eat parts of a meal and/or drink only 1/3 of a bottle of juice/wine (which we can refill even if partially filled and which are stored in a player's inventory), hence the code for having some sort of magazine is there already. animation wise replacing a drum is similar enough to shoving shells into a shotgun meaning you'd only need to animate it once and insert different sized/coloured cylinders, drums may just be specialized containers like mining bags but take only x items of the same type of ammunition at once. reloading a second shot into a double barrelled shotgun would just repeat the reloading animation. Still a second animation for front loading guns might be necessary, if there'd be front loading pistols there'd be a third needed if we'd be going for somewhat believable looking.

Shooting animations could be similar enough for them all to use the same animation for all rifles and the same animation for all pistols/short barrelled guns, the lever could be part of all rifles with more than one shot, and using it could be the end of the shooting animation (more or less an animation for the ammunition check, if there is none left the animation ends in the drum/empty shells jumping out and the rifle in an open state, ready to be reloaded, if there is the rifle returns to the ready to fire state).

 

On 7/6/2022 at 8:42 PM, TSense said:

Lets not lose ourselves in the details and tell me which Codejockey I need to give 200 bucks.

I'm by far neither a coder, texture artist, 3d-modeller nor animator (you'd need someone being decent in all four or up to at least three different people being able to work together on it), but I'd think even if it'd be only a single gun, those two animations you mention and writing code for it... If I'd take money I'd have to deliver something I could be proud enough of, I'm not sure if what you want could be made in under 10 hours with decent quality and without incompatibilities (plus an budget for bug fixing hours for later game versions), and if it would take significantly longer those 200 bucks might be underpaying even a hobbyist (I sure as heck know it's not nothing, it's 1/5 my monthly income after all, but after taxes, for which one needs additional time and/or money for someone else to do them, and other expenses [from usual business expenses, over possibly needed assets to possibly legal expenses], there'd be little left from 200 bucks for that kind of freelance work, the professionals I know need to charge that per 1-2 hour(s), to make some profit from it, and from my experience 2 hours are shorter than one might think).

But maybe Zarkonnen / @David Starkcan be of help? He made the Ranged Weapons Mod.

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  • 2 weeks later...
On 7/10/2022 at 1:48 PM, TSense said:

2. We currently have 5 items on this site's shop page. We might as well vote for what we want with our money. Not DLC that everyone has to pay for, but Development of FM-OU-LA Firearms which is free for everyone once it is created, crowdfunded over a productless Item in the Shop with the Name your Price Pricetag

This is a more general idea, by the way. Buying the development of optional content in the sides shop. Not optional content, but the development of optional content.

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On 7/10/2022 at 1:48 PM, TSense said:

We might as well vote for what we want with our money.

You mean like the forum polls for the next update? Only you have to pay extra to get a vote? I'm sure you could send Tyron money via paypal, but idk how much you would have to pay to overturn the forum poll on what to concentrate development on in the next updates.

On 7/10/2022 at 1:48 PM, TSense said:

Not DLC that everyone has to pay for, but Development of FM-OU-LA Firearms which is free for everyone once it is created,

1 hour ago, TSense said:

Buying the development of optional content in the sides shop.

As it takes time out of developing the actual game it would be paid for by everyone (mostly in time waiting for the next update, but time is money), there are no extra people to work on such projects in the team and I highly doubt Tyron will do the extra effort to hire freelancers for several thousand €/$ to work on a side project that's clearly not intended for the vanilla game, as he'd be stuck with keeping it up-to-date or paying for that service as it would be an official VS mod. Maybe after vanilla VS is finalized, as then the costs for constantly updating the mod would be calculable and such projects might keep the team in work.

 

A more reasonable approach would be to request a mod in Mods & Mod Development and look if someone would be willing to make it. As I see it, you could put a bounty on developing your firearms mod too, though I'm not sure how well that'll work. After all, if someone took you up on that offer, it would be a legally binding contract even if it's only posts on a forum.

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On 7/6/2022 at 8:44 AM, Hal13 said:

That's not an early firearm, that's already an quite advanced one, though even earlier ones like the arquebus might not be viable firearms for player characters. The musket could take blast powder and lead balls as ammunition and would be "accurate" on distances less than 10 blocks (meaning the spread should be about 1 block for each 10 blocks). The barrel would be from cast bronze or iron with a stock made from a board and a reload stick made from cloth and a stick. Could come as pistols too, with a malus to effective range of 50%. Could use paper "casings" for faster reload but even then, would need to be dried and reloaded after getting wet.

Several versions of shotguns could be next, single or double barrel, possibly even more (before the invention of drums and clips to add more shots you added more barrels), at this stage ammunition would have to be crafted with a casing made from copper or brass (and wax or fat for sealing several casings at once, idk maybe 6), blast powder and either pellets (could just be lead, copper, iron or steel bits) or lead balls and each barrel made from iron or steel. Balls would basically work as before (but with a higher effective range, maybe 20 blocks), pellets would result in an aoe in form of a cone with damage lowering the further away the target(s) are (up to the effective range) OR it could work similar to Minecrafts explosions, casting several rays damaging whatever is hit by those rays.

Next would be revolver based weaponry, rifles and pistols. Ammunition would be made from casings, blast powder and rounds, rounds can be either cast from copper or lead or smithed from iron or steel. The weapons would be crafted from a rifled barrel (or a shotgun barrel, the barrel type would dictate which ammunition is used), a drum and either a rifle or pistol frame. Rifled barrels would have to be smithed from steel. The rifle form would have an effective range of over 30 blocks (spread of less than a block per 30 blocks distance) the pistol half of that. Drums could be smithed in different capacities (maybe 2x 6 chambers or a 12 chamber drum for a steel ingot and a 24 chamber drum for 2), the smallest drums might be easily replaceable for reloading fast, pistols would only be able to take the smallest size.

Balls could do high damage (I'd say 10) though are considered tier 2. Pellets are considered tier 1 and could do either little damage (around 10 divided by the number of rays) for each ray or the ball's damage at the origin of the cone lowering linear until it reaches 0 at the effective range. Rounds could do medium damage (maybe in the vicinity of 8 ) but being considered tier 3. Different materials could change tier and damage of the attack with lead being considered the baseline, copper would be the same tier but damage +1, iron would be considered tier +1 and damage +1 and at last steel would result in tier +1 and damage +2.

 

The goal for tech development is steam age (with trains and possibly airships) hence we'd be somewhere in the late 1800's to early 1900's in the end. Therefore firearms would make sense but I can understand not to add them too.

I speculate that if the devs did end up adding rifles/firearms. I'm gonna guess they will take something that isn't ridiculously complicated.

But rather they will be behind deep in the tech-tree (in my guess when we reach steel age) and making them will require steel and other stuff. Also if we talk about lore, it is gonna be something the seraph already knows. Something fitting to the steampunk and the era.

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On 7/5/2022 at 10:40 AM, Streetwind said:

The dev team has previously stated that firearms will not be implemented into the game.

Have they stated why? Sounds odd not to add basic matchlocks or flintlocks, they would fit very well into the game both thematically and in terms of gameplay.

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