Teh Pizza Lady

only just a bit. XD They can ram you pretty hard, but they don't typically commit to prolonged attacks. It's going to be hard to model it properly but their damage shouldn't be that high unless you're just standing there waggling your hiney in their faces. Check their damage tier. if it's tier 2 or higher, it's gonna pack a wallop no matter in the early game.

Skyrim doesn't make you carry separate money pouches for your gold coins and you can carry tens of thousands of those. Rusty gears are your currency in this game so I think it's a bit of an olive branch that the devs are letting them stack up to 1000. I have never seen that many gears at once when playing the game, so it would be interesting to know how you or anyone accumulated that much wealth in the game.

That's a really nice idea, but unfortunately I don't think it will work for the same reason the devs made it so that only naturally spawning pine (and acacia) trees will have a chance to produce resin. They really do not want the players to be able to easily setup farms for specific resources outside of crops and animals.

Yes, your lab tests were very standardized. Which is exactly the point I was making and you missed it. The fact that you had to specify standardized slugs, specific ranges, specific velocities, specific strike locations, and specific armor types to make your point... is exactly my point. Real world scenarios are too complex and too variable-dependent that they cannot be cleanly modeled in a video game, which is why it shouldn't even try. That is why spears sit in that space between specialized melee weapons and specialized ranged weapons. Spears are given a boost in ranged damage to compensate for their added windup/aiming time. The melee damage was nerfed because people were using spears instead of actual melee weapons. The windup/aiming time was added because people were using spears instead of actual ranged weapons. If we were to implement your proposed changes, we would be undo-ing all the balance work the devs have performed on them. The only reason I keep coming back to this topic, besides feeling very strongly about the spear balance, is that this conversation has happened at least three times on this forum before and it always ends badly. We're too deep into it now to just walk away cleanly. Which is a thin hint that you may be right in some places (and I do concede that) but there is still a hard line in the sand, and we can't cross back over it. Do what Thorfinn said to create your own mod to balance the spears the way you want in your own game. Make it as realistic as possible. Then do the scientific thing and write down which weapon you tend to reach for first. Make a note of why. Come back and report your findings. I have a guess what your reply will be. Hint: It won't be the falx. Sometimes things are just better left alone despite knowing better. My partner doesn't get mad during hospital scenes in movies even though they do everything wrong and she's a nurse. I don't get mad during bad hacking or computer operation scenes in video games even though they're unrealistic and poorly acted. Sometimes when things have drifted so far beyond what you KNOW to be true in your own mind, you just have to let it go and enjoy it for what it is. My advice to you, speaking as a fellow neurodivergent, is to take a deep breath and get used to things being inaccurate in video games. Good advice. I'm dropping this thread and no longer responding to any replies. There's nothing more that can be said by anyone now at this point moving forward, without pushing the issue into personal attacks.

The actual biology of neuropsychology does not even support this claim. In fact, saying that the brain is not plastic enough any more is just a thinly veiled excuse to get out of trying something new. Too much time and energy has been sunken into this thread that fixing the problem himself is no longer something that OP is willing to concede at this point, I would wager. He has spouted numerous inaccuracies, many of which have been addressed at length, the most recent of which I have examined being his Level IIIA body armor claims regarding shotgun slugs. Level IIIA stopping a slug is a bare minimum for passing at a certain range with a certain weight slug fired at a certain velocity and striking the armor at a certain location. "Stopping" even is inaccurate because the slug doesn't bounce off, it is allowed to penetrate and deform the surface underneath up to 44mm before it can be considered a failure. Put that armor on your head and shoot it with a slug and you'll find out real fast just how plastic your brain really is! XD

I'd be more worried about the bears claws at that point.

I have created a mod for this actually. XD Stacks Cool Slower mod also makes them heat just a bit quicker

I will DM you.

As I said, I am working on a mod that encompasses a lot of this information.

I'm actually working on a mod that addresses some of this stuff as a companion mod to Expanded Stomach.

I tested this in single player and you are correct. Brown bears do not get knocked back at all. Black bears do. Smaller animals do as well. I didn't try polar bears because they're bigger than brown bears.

Knockback for thrown spears is already in the game. I could see it being added for thrust spears as well.

I'm only responding because you quoted me and misread my words as sour grapes. It wasn't. I'm also responding because you keep claiming that I got the physics wrong, but have yet to actually point out what I got wrong. Was it my formulas? Or was it the fact that I found them with a quick Google search instead of years of study and research with ballistic gel in a controlled lab environment and said "good enough" and moved on with my life? Let's go back to where this started. Your original post said that higher thrown damage was "counter-intuitive." My response was simple: faster objects hit harder than slower objects. That is well known by anyone who has ever watched a car race and seen them crash. NASCAR is a classic example of a lightweight race car crashing harder than a much heavier street car by the simple fact that the race car is doing over triple the street car's speed. The only reason the crashes aren't worse is because of all the safety equipment and gear they have in those cars. Or to put it another way: tape a cannonball to the front of a tank and drive it into a fridge. Then shoot the same fridge with the same cannonball from the same tank. The tank delivered more total energy by orders of magnitude. The fridge has opinions about which one actually went through it. All of those are modeled... I THINK... in your formulas and lab test and ballistic gel experiments. I'm not entirely sure at this point because they all missed the mark on the actual question In fact, the only problem I have with your arguments is that every time I gave a clean answer to the question on the table, the question changed. The original question was simple, as was my answer. I answered it with KE = 1/2 mv^2 and the answer was yes. Your first response didn't challenge the physics, it argued game balance (which was also address by other posters because if the spear does more damage then why use a falx??) and proposed adding full wielder mass to a stationary thrust, mixing two completely different scenarios. Then the mass argument escalated with an 80kg + 10m/s figure that compounded the same error. Then the conversation became Force-Time curves, weird formulas that are impossible to type with a keyboard, impulse vs peak force, armor penetration coefficients, ballistic gelatin studies, paywalled experimental archaeology papers, and AI-generated graphs, all of which complicated the issue well beyond the original question. None of it was the question. The question was "Should a thrown spear do more damage than melee spear." The answer was yes, because it HITS harder. The goalposts left the entire stadium and are watching the game two cities over. I concede one thing genuinely: "pay better attention in class" was the wrong delivery for a correct point. The point itself stands. I concede the tone, not the argument, and not because you out-argued me. I recognized the tone could have been better, and that we had drifted into measuring different things entirely where continuing to argue past each other wasn't useful. I do appreciate you taking the time to work on yourself, but the path to the high road should have come much sooner from both of us. That said, I still firmly believe the game shouldn't include your lab models because the variables required to properly model a hit with a spear do not exist in the code. I've seen it, I work with it, I've written mods to change it. It doesn't measure the angle of the target, the forces applied at the moment of impact, or any of the other variables your models depend on. It cares about two things: whether you hit the target, and whether you are in range of the target hitting you back. I still do not agree that any of this changes the number in the game. The thrown spear should hit harder. At least... the barn post agrees with me... And I would wager that from a balance standpoint (of making the spear a hybrid weapon that can used as both melee and ranged) that it should exist in a place between proper melee and ranged weapons. The longer wind-up and aiming time for the spear wouldn't feel as good if the ranged damage were lowered. The player base agrees with me on this. Having higher melee damage to make it comparable to the falx at each tier would render that weapon useless. The devs agree with me on this. I'm not sure which crowd you are in.

Any argument you could make for thrusting a spear into the side of a bear should come with the requirement that it be made while actually thrusting a spear into the side of a bear in real life. Then and only then you will understand why throwing > thrusting. I have to side with the devs on this one, no matter what the graphs say. The human body isn't a hydraulic press. It's a bag of fleshy snacks held together with bony toothpicks all wrapped up in a convenient wrapper called clothing and armor. A mere hindrance to the determined predator, really. to be perfectly fair, he started it. EDIT: @DeanF After a thorough review of your posts, I can confirm that you are right. But only when the spear is thrust by a rigid robot with zero flex or give at an unarmored, stationary, cooperative target that doesn't move, fight back, or have opinions about being stabbed...like a bear Your physics are sound when the conditions are ideal in a lab. However in a real encounter, the conditions will never be ideal. The target has a vote, your body is not a rigid force-delivery machine (your grip slips or shifts, your elbows flex, your shoulder rotates to absorb recoil; the body is full of involuntary shock absorption systems that cannot be overridden even with perfect technique), and a thrown spear just simply... does not care about ANY of that. Because it can't. Because you already threw it as hard as you could. It's a video game and the number for throwing a spear simply is higher because you are literally throwing away your weapon after a lengthy wind-up and aiming period. It just feels better. When the thrown damage was nerfed, the player base rioted. Also I threw a homemade spear at a barn once. It stuck in the wooden pole. I got in trouble. Why did I throw the spear? Because it didn't hurt my hands like stabbing the pole did and it was an imaginary enemy that I just couldn't damage otherwise because thrusting the spear just didn't deal the same kinetic force as throwing it did. Idk what else to tell you, dude.

sees changes to hunger system has authored at least 2 mods that use said hunger system Welp I guess I'll go update my mods now! XD

"It's a solo game" is doing a lot of heavy lifting here, because Vintage Story is not only a solo game. It has full multiplayer support, active community servers, and TOPS -- the official public test server -- is frequented by a large number of players as well as the developers themselves. Changes to base game mechanics don't exist in a vacuum where only one person will ever experience them. They ship to everyone. The concern wasn't hyperbole. It was a straightforward walkthrough of how the proposed change interacts with existing systems, using the game's own mechanics as the framework. Whether anyone would actually perform that specific sequence is beside the point -- the point is that the design space matters, because the devs have to consider it whether we do or not. I'm also not sure "fringe use" and "what is it to you" are really the counterarguments you want to be making here, because the answer to both of those is: game design. The reason we're all in a suggestions forum discussing whether a mechanic should exist is precisely because these things are worth thinking through before they ship. That's the job this forum exists to do: weigh ideas and demand better thought where they are found wanting.

hard to poke when the poking bit is pointing in the wrong direction, eh?

every source I could find said that wasn't feasible unless the wielder was charging with the spear. The thrust would only carry the mass of the arms used to thrust it. Also the speed would be slower around 3-4 m/s which is the average speed of a human male running with both hands occupied. KE = 1/2 * 80 * 3.5^2 = 490 J Even if it were a full fencing thrust, not all of the weight of the wielder would transfer. I would guesstimate somewhere between 30-40kg and a higher speed of maybe 6m/s instead. Plugging that in we get: KE = 1/2 * 35 * 6^2 = 630 J Both numbers are still lower than the thrown spear, which even if it slowed to 20m/s would still have 800 J of KE behind it at the moment of impact. KE = 1/2 * 4 * 20^2 = 800 J That's a lot of energy

Mistake on my part. In my defense I have a really bad headache that I've been trying to ditch since yesterday. But you are...more right than me. I actually considered this and see no issues with it. Only tall grass should yield the big handful that we use in that game.

In that case, let the player be rewarded for their efforts and ingenuity! There is no effort to be found in removing the basic requirement of a simple flint knife to harvest grass. It's not a genius solution to bypass the basic requirement of "cut grass; build fire" model that we have to advancing through the tech tree. Obtaining the items for trade will require a significant amount of luck and/or time. That's not nothing. Otherwise, I agree with you. Not everything has to start with the stone age, but the alternative path to iron and steel shouldn't be a shortcut.

I'd like to suggest the addition of moss as a harvestable resource in the game. It's something that genuinely feels like it should already be in the game given how grounded in realism the rest of the survival mechanics are. I think it has enough utility to justify adding it without breaking the other systems in the game. Where it grows: On trees, obviously, but I was thinking it could grow on the south side bark of large oak and maple trees or present as a wispy texture hanging down from tree branches like Spanish Moss does. This keeps it rare enough and situational enough that it's something you'd notice, bookmark and come back for later. Since it doesn't grow from new oak trees (similar to how resin won't spout from new pine trees) this keeps it as a finite resource and not something you can farm easily. Harvesting it would require the player to deliberately seek it out and its delicate nature means that yields would be small. Vanilla uses: The most immediate use would be as a replacement for grass in crafting a fire pit. Grass is used a tinder in that construction. Substituting moss would allow the player to get a fire going. The traditional firestarter takes one piece of grass and two sticks. Moss could also serve as a substitute for the grass component here. Both options would give players an alternative in situations where they haven't made a knife or are trying to conserve a nearly broken one. It's historically accurate, too. Moss has many well-documented uses as tinder and fire-starting material across many cultures. The Primitive Survival YouTube channel shows it being used as tinder many times. Moss also has antiseptic properties that make it a natural fit as an ingredient for poultices or bandages. It could also be used as an insulating material that could be sewn into clothing by a Tailor to give a small boost to cold resistance. Modding potential: Moss as a base resource also opens up interesting possibilities for the modding community. Mod authors could incorporate in ways that had smaller, niche uses such as water filtration, or as a material that could be tilled into the soil to boost nutrients or aid in water retention. Let me know what you think and whether you can think of any additional uses for moss that I hadn't considered.

Aren't sticks also a required component in pit kiln construction, along with grass? Because pottery is a pretty massive thing to allow the player to freely do without ever making or using a knife. I think the real issue here isn't the construction of firepits with sticks and grass harvested without a knife. The real issue is the fact that allowing the player to harvest grass without a knife allows them to ENTIRELY SKIP THE STONE AGE. With OP's proposed "simple" change, the player can now gather all the grass and sticks they need to construct a pit kiln which can be fueled with peat (or charcoal for faster firing times). And here's the kicker. Charcoal is now able to be freely produced without ever making a knife because it also has a grass requirement for getting the fire going and that grass requirement is now also toolless. Although charcoal is made with firewood which DOES require an axe...... .............But a copper axe head can be cast directly without ever picking up or using a knife. Here's how that would be done: Punch grass to harvest it Stuff into pit kilns with axe mold, pickaxe mold, hammer mold and crucible Pile on sticks Cover in peat Light with torch or firestarter and wait... and then.... Use loose bits of coal from the ground to smelt loose bits of copper from the ground Pour molten copper into axe mold Use axe to chop trees and make firewood and get a charcoal pit going Use pickaxe to harvest more copper Use hammer to crush ore bits Use charcoal to smelt the rest of the copper, fuel your pitkilns, make the rest of your molds (anvil mold anyone??) and get a proper smithing setup All without touching a single knife. And it can be done with bronze, too, allowing a player to skip right to iron, even, without touching a single knife. How is this a "simple" change? It isn't. It's game-breaking. I think instead of allowing tool-less harvesting of grass, a better solution would be to allow the player to pick moss off trees and rocks and use that as a replacement for grass when making a firestarter. Moss is historically documented as tinder and has genuine fire starting properties. It would, of course, be hard to find and even harder to obtain due to its delicate nature, making it a genuine last resort for survival rather than a convenient shortcut. It's an alternative for players who can't find flint to make a knife or who are looking for an additional challenge all without overtly affecting the progression chain for everyone else who plays the game. As a bonus, moss could have additional uses that make it worth seeking out at any stage of the game. Its well-documented historical antiseptic properties make it a natural candidate for wound dressing or the creation of poultices. It could also serve as an insulation material to be sewn into clothing for extra cold resistance. Moss would genuinely add something new to the game, giving it more depth instead of removing the basic need to rub two rocks together to make a knife.

the presence of ripe fruit wasn't enough?

I have to push back on this because realistically there is an inherent problem with using them to chisel handholds on a surface you're trying to climb. You need to already be on a stable surface before you can effectively use said tools. Realistically nobody is hanging off the side of a cliff, gripping the footholds with their toes while chiseling out more, at least not without some sort of climbing gear. That's a really good way to end up a pre-tenderized bear snack at the foot of the cliff. Some sort of scaffolding would allow this, but honestly I only see it being useful for shorter runs without.

It's an open forum. Anyone can respond. I would ask what is the purpose of being able to make a firepit without tools, but first I need to know a few other things: What is your exact definition of "tools". The game classifies a lot of items as tools, including firestarters. If no tools are required, what should be required then? Obviously resources, but what about a skill level in harvesting the resources? I've seen some comments suggesting that you should be allowed to freely gather grass with your bare hands. Have you tried ripping up grass with your hands? It's not easy. Who should be allowed to do this? All players from the start of the game or only those who've progressed enough to know how to build a fire in the first place the normal way? What stops this from making the existing requirements for building fires pointless? This also raises a question about how the game onboards new players. The game's tutorials guide you to making your very first knife and stone tools. Are you suggesting that this should be irrelevant? I largely agree with this. The knife is useful for so many things, cutting hides, harvesting animals, looting rotbeasts etc. It can even serve as a weapon in a pinch. A good quality steel knife is a godsend because it's long durability! You've already responded to this quote from LadyWYT here: I'm not sure we're using the same definition for "railroading" here. Can you define railroading for me, please? The point I'm trying to make is that nobody is FORCING you to carry a knife with you at all times. Nobody is forcing you to carry only one. The choice is yours to make at all times. Your player agency is intact. What you're bumping into and why you're making this suggestion isn't because the players are being railroaded into specific choices, it's game mechanics. Mechanics are coherent, deliberate design choices that define how players are allowed to interact with the game world to achieve the desired outcomes. The tool requirement isn't restricting your agency, it's defining the terms of how you are allowed to play the game. Furthermore, suggesting that fires be allowed to be made without tools is a bit of a contradiction to what the game is all about. Vintage Story is a game that markets itself as an "uncompromising wilderness survival" game. Difficulty building a fire because you need a knife to cut grass isn't an arbitrary restriction, it's a deliberate choice. Asking to remove this isn't asking for more agency, it's asking the game to stop requiring you to adhere to its rules. You need thing, you use tool to get it. Same for chopping wood, or smithing another knife on the anvil or grinding grains into flour. Yes it is a simple change to allow grass to be harvested without a knife. But a simple change in the wrong direction is still the wrong change to make. One final thought: Players who actually want the option to remain toolless already have that option. There are several things you can obtain throughout game play without ever crafting a single tool. You can forage for food, you can run around collecting rusty gears and eventually trade them to get your first lantern. But without that knife, a lot of the game's systems will simply be locked to you.