Tabulius

No way dude! That's sick, I'll be adding it to my future servers and I'll let you know if there's problems. Thanks for putting in the effort where I've been slacking off

I'm actually gonna have to amend that opinion again. I had been playing with CO for a while and it's changes were subtle enough that I didn't realize how much of a difference it made. Going back to vanilla there are a lot of little things that are different. For one hit reg is definitely worse in vanilla. There were multiples times where my reticle was red and I 100% should have landed a hit but it didn't register, that never happened with CO. There were also times where my reticle wouldn't go red even though I should be in range. Another thing is enemy attacks are better telegraphed and easier to dodge. In vanilla some of the enemies will still hit you even if you're far enough away that you logically should have dodged them. This is probably where most of the complaints about wolves come from. Also enemies like shivers and bears which are slightly faster than the player in vanilla, also have a quick difficult to dodge attack, with a hitbox larger than the actual animation. Where as in CO I'd say they may have over corrected a little. Now you can basically avoid all damage just by walking (not running) backwards and side stepping when they attack. Bears are also slowed, to the point where they are slightly slower than the player at sprint, instead of slightly faster like in vanilla. Also, armor is so much worse in vanilla. Walk speed being halved with plate is ridiculous, and makes you a sitting duck. You can't even chase down bowtorns, since they're slightly faster than you. So if you get caught out in the open with full plate during a storm with a bunch of bowtorns around you your only option is to retreat. Compared to that even with 3 layers of plate, chain, and gambeson your speed is only reduced to 71% in CO meaning you're still able to actually respond to the enemy. I think CO is definitely a more balanced experience, I rarely feel like a death wasn't my fault when using CO. However it arguably trivializes some of the enemies too much. Fast enemies like wolves are a lot more fair, but their attacks are almost stationary now. You could avoid all damage by standing still and then stepping back at the first telegraph. Rarely do they do the jumping attack that's the bane of many a noob, and even when they do it's way easier to avoid. And some attacks you almost have to be inside of the enemy to get hit. Where as in vanilla, the only viable strategy is to kite them. If you try to side step an attack at all the risk is way too high and you'll almost certainly take the hit. I do think CO is preferable to vanillas feeling of it being a wild card whether you dodge an attack or not, and it's not like it makes enemies unchallenging, but especially one on one enemies are not the same threat they were. I think it would be nice if the standard strategy of kiting enemies to death was broken up. In both vanilla and CO enemies will track you perfectly if you side step or jump around them. So your main means of fighting is always kiting. This is pretty universally considered to be a sign of poor design. CO avoids this better because of how much more forgiving the hit boxes are, but especially with multiple enemies you'll be kiting a lot. I think the longer reach of vanilla enemy attacks wouldn't be as much of a problem if they couldn't track you perfectly and seemingly change direction during attacks.

I had this idea in another thread but I would like to mention it here because I really think something like this could solve the issue of food perishing when you're logged off on multiplayer. Here's how it would work. Whenever you place a storage object a system would tag it as yours. Whenever you log off, item aging would pause on all storage objects tagged as yours until someone else uses them or you log back on. If someone other than you uses one of your storage units while you're offline that player gets a temporary tag that lasts as long as their session. And the storage unit they used becomes unpaused until that player also logs off. And of course, if someone breaks the object it loses its tag and if they place it down it will be tagged as theirs. This method doesn't seem to be easily exploitable, though you will possibly also have to account for hoppers in some way. It doesn't seem that complicated to me but i'm ignorant to how difficult coding something like this in would be. If anyones interested in the idea or shedding light on it's feasibility it'd be appreciated. I might look into making it myself if it's not all that difficult

Referring to CO. For some reason bears are damage tier 0 in CO, they are literally completely incapable of damaging you if you have any kind of armor that gives full coverage. Unless I have another mod effecting it but I can't think of what would.

Having played more with combat overhaul I don't think it's a solution, and it also has it's own share of problems. It makes combat more complex mainly with area specific damage, but it doesn't really improve the existing flaws. A lot of the complaints about combat in general are hit box related. And although hitboxes do seem to be a problem I think in a lot of cases the problem isn't actually enemy hit boxes but the way hits are registered. You have to have your reticle on the enemy while the weapon is swinging or else it won't hit. This means that tiny enemies like locusts are an utter pain to fight, because you have no AOE attacks and you need to be pin point accurate. Faster enemies like shivers can be easy to miss, and hordes of enemies in general are difficult because even if you can swing wide enough that your weapon should hit multiple, it only registers what your reticle covers. CO does improve this a bit, I'm not sure if it was added in the mod or it exists in the vanilla game but I have been been able to damage multiple enemies if they're clustered, particularly with pole arms. But it's not something I can reliably count on since the mod still relies on the pin point reticle based hit reg. On top of that, it makes some really odd changes to armor. Like making brigandine completely useless since it has all the same debuffs as plate but worse stats. In general early game armor is trash, that's also true for vanilla, but in vanilla there would be some benefit to even copper lamellar even if it wasn't really worth making for most people. Now lamellar in general is completely useless outside of surface armor, and even as surface armor it's not good because it can't be layered with anything else, you'd be better of just using chain mail and layering with gambeson. Scale kind of has a use since you can wear gambeson with it, but it's still just marginally better than just wearing chain and gambeson. It would be better to not waste the metal since you'll still have a use for chain, but you'll out grow scale. Side note, I've also discovered that any amount of armor will make you completely impervious to bears, even a single layer of basic gambeson. This is definitely a glitch. I do really like the new weapons. and the region based damage in theory. But I think changing hit reg is needed first. Weapons and their attacks having physicalized hitboxes instead of just being a thing you hold to increase your damage would make a bigger difference than most of what CO changes.

Really? I didn't know they changed that, that's good. Can you take from cooking pots too? Still would be nice to be able to cut up pies in your inventory but precutting pies isn't as much of a problem.

Don't think I got a log since the game didn't hard crash it just froze up completely. I think it's probably mods but I'm not sure if it's better ruins, I've had it installed for a while. I've had these problems before so better ruins might be at least a compounding factor, but they started to ramp up recently. I have 32 gigs and the game got to the point where it was using over half of that. It was doable, I could drink from the reservoir and the mines, but it wasn't fun. Plus the mod makes it impossible to stock up on water beforehand because it makes you super slow if you're carrying water. I had to rush through the library cause I had ran out of water. Food in general should really be reworked in the story content. You're basically restricted to using cut up pies or bread, anything else with decent satiety requires you to place it on the ground. It'd be nice if you could cut up food or take from a crock in your inventory.

Trying to beat chapter 1 while the game is leaking memory. I had like 5 second intervals of time to fight between freezes. I died literally 1 hit away from killing the boss, not because of the boss, but starvation. The game kept freezing so much I didn't notice. Then when I came back and beat the boss the memory leak finally occupied my last megabyte of ram and the game crashed. Wasn't funny to me, but it's funny now thinking about it. Also, playing the story content with hydrate or diedrate installed is a bad idea, that mod is not balanced for dungeon crawling.

This thread kind of turned into a thread complaining about complaining about combat This is what I made the thread to address, VS seems to be setting itself up to do the same thing. With combat as it is there's no problem with it being just another gameplay loop. But the issue is that it comprises the majority of what you're supposed to be working towards in the late game and doing in the endgame. And then there's temporal storms which I'm not sure if any one is happy with in their current state.

I haven't had a chance to try the temporal tempest mod, but it seems like it would fix some of the issues I have with temporal storms. Enemies not spawning randomly in and around your house but instead from rifts, allowing you to prep defense. That encourages you to fight them in order to shorten the storm while still having the option to wait the storm out in your base.

A possibility might be a system that automatically tags storage units placed by a player as theirs. Then everything spoils and ages based on if they're online or not. When they're offline if another player uses it, it restarts the aging process until they log off as well. But unlike the main player using it, it doesn't restart when they log back on unless they interact with that object again. In theory this could kind of be gamed by players who don't own the storage logging off and on right after using it. But that's enough of a pain that i'd guess most people wouldn't bother.

Disagree, the problem with combat isn't that it's mediocre. it's that, combined with the fact that it's an ever present aspect of the game that only seems to be getting more important. If one of the main gameplay loops isn't enjoyable then there's a problem. And one that's more significant than adding new features. Most people on both sides of the argument seem to agree that combat isn't fun. Those on the anti-overhaul side's opposition often isn't that they think combat is ideal, but just that they're afraid that an overhaul will put more focus on combat. That seems like a somewhat mute point to me, as combat is already at the core of the game, and the main part of the story. So, if we're gonna do it we should do it right. Something like this becomes a lot harder to adjust as development continues. Personally I don't think CO fully addresses the issues with combat, certainly not the ones that seem to be most complained about. It more so rebalances it and improves a few things. The combat still feels like it's lacking identity, and isn't satisfying to engage with. I think that has more to do with the enemies, their feed back, ai, and player movement. Where as CO focuses on weapons and armor. I do like it better, but fights still feel like a chore most of the time. I agree with @Forks take, that a lot of this comes down to how the combat feels more than anything. I've played games with way less robust combat mechanics that were more exciting to have fights in, the forest comes to mind.

I tried something like this once, but I couldn't harvest near enough flax to make sails in a reasonable amount of time. The later half of my play through would have been just waiting for flax to grow for at least a year.

Even up to the American revolutionary war people were still arguing the merits of archery in a military context. So I think bows shouldn't be outmoded by early matchlocks.

I'm in amused disbelief that you made a novels worth of boomer memes for a forum thread

I think you two are using different definitions of easy. You seem to mean it as what takes less exertion, which you would be correct it does take less exertion. Where as mayushii seems to mean it as takes less skill. Which as far as I can see is also right. It doesn't really take any more skill in vanilla. There isn't anything you can do to better narrow ore down aside from taking readings and knowing your biome. So the only real difference is how much trial and error you have to do after.

That's actually a much better idea. Having specific enemies or hazards that can get into your house can bypass the whole design problem of having entities destroy your base, while still providing a threat. Just as long as it's in a way that you can see coming.

not sure how sprinklers would work, but you already can irrigate once you get a bucket.

You raise a good point, this would require some thought and potentially rework of building to implement well. A possibility could be adjusting how much of a danger entities pose to your base depending on the type of storm. For example, light storms they can only damage blocks like doors and glass, which you could protect with some kind of new reinforcing system, maybe even just using plumb and squares. On medium they can damage packed dirt or wood blocks if not framed by a stronger block like cobble, and on hard they can damage them regardless. The system could be made more predictable by having them always prefer the easiest block to break. This way you'll be able to spend the time when you get a warning for a storm preparing for whatever type it is, by barricading, reinforcing walls, setting traps, moving valuables, etc. This is a rough idea, I think something like this could be implemented well but it would require some good design. A big thing is that it would need to be accessible to early game players because fighting in temporal storms isn't a reasonable option for early game, unless you already know the combat by heart. The biggest thing it would require is an overhaul of the ai, making them more predictable with pathing and cones of vision. Especially because right now they can see through walls. Aside from that maybe a few modifications to the map to allow for additional places to hide.

In Darkwood you're essentially forced to stay in your house at night because outside there are extremely dangerous enemies that you have next to no chance of beating. So you wait out the night at your house, and have to barricade your doors, windows, and set traps. Sometimes nothing happens, and you just hear enemies walking around outside. Sometimes you hear voices and hallucinations, and other times enemies try to break down your door. As long as you stay in your house you won't have to face the extremely hard enemies. But there is a threat of some enemies attacking you. But you can defend, prepare, and counterplay against them. I think this is a better alternative to just being able to completely ignore the storm while sitting in your house, or being forced to face it head on. I think it could satisfy most players desires with storms, making them something you can fight if you want, or hold out if you want.

I'm afraid I'm not exactly sure where I saw it, but I'm pretty sure there's documentation of Tyron essentially saying that he wants players not to hide during storms and have to engage with them. Regardless, the design makes this imminently clear as avoiding the storm has only gotten harder. I don't consider your method of dispatching enemies, not combat. It's just the state of combat in vintage story. It's telling that most players prefer metagaming to avoid fights rather than actually dealing with enemies the way you're intended to. A rework could take many different forms, it doesn't have to be that of an action rpg. It seems like most people would rather the combat be less emphasized than more so. So, an easy option with the groundwork the game has set up would be to adjust it to be more akin to a game like thief. Combat is still an option, but you're given stealth options to avoid it, and the game is less balanced around open fights. This would mean stronger individual enemies but no hordes of enemies in dungeons and in the underground like you see currently. As well as a revamp of stealth mechanics and the enemies detection ai. Temporal storms could become less of a mosh pit, and more of a horror experience, like the nights in a game like darkwood which I honestly think would suit it better.

I'll concede you probably have more experience with the dungeons than I do. But, in my experience running past fights is the suboptimal choice in most cases. If you had better stealth options then I might agree. But, most alternatives to fighting are either janky, or cause greater stress than just fighting. The explicit intent of temporal storms is to force you to engage in the combat, and work has only been done to make avoiding it more difficult. I haven't been able to do and indoor work in my recent playthroughs because enemies spawn indoors now. And I wouldn't call hiding in a bunker and doing nothing for 20 minutes a compelling alternative, would you? This is exactly what I'm talking about, a poor implementation of combat being made integral to the experience. Personally I think if temporal storms operated like sieges in 7 days to die, where you have to build up your base in preparation to defend against them that would be much more interesting. At least then you would have to play with the more interesting mechanics of the game like building, and not just run circles in your house throwing spears. I don't think vintage story has to be an action game. Nor does it necessarily have an obligation to make its combat more action oriented IF it refrains from having action oriented gameplay scenarios. The combat seems more at place if the game was designed around being a survival horror game, and if it were I'd agree that it's serviceable (if not a bit too easy.) But, it's not. You don't have fast paced fights with hordes of enemies in a survival horror game, nor do you seek out the enemy and fight bosses. Right now the combat lacks identity. It feels like you're being given conflicting messages. On one hand you gain very little from fighting, the loot pool seems to be designed to intentionally discourage you from it. Most enemies are slow enough that you can often easily flee a fight. But the game keeps putting you in circumstances that outright encourage you to fight in spite of this, and punish you for not fighting, even though you still don't stand to gain much from fighting. Even in heavy temporal storms where the possible loot is probably the best in the game the risk for early to mid game is disproportionate. Unless the storms were designed around the meta strat of spear spamming from towers.

I realize many have complained about the state of combat before. My goal here isn't to illustrate what's wrong with combat as others have done that better than I can. My goal is to express how the heavy focus on combat is why so many people are bothered by it. Of all the things this game has that makes it a unique and captivating experience, the combat is absolutely not one of them. The combat feels shallow, unsatisfying, and clunky. A lot like minecrafts. That's not necessarily a problem, only it's one of the features the game puts a heavy demand on you engaging with. The temporal storms force you to interrupt whatever you're doing to interact with the combat, And the story content is exclusively combat oriented. This is incredibly backwards as far as I see it. If combat stays as it is then in my opinion it should be a minor focus of the game, and act more as a punishment for playing unsafe. Now personally I do enjoy good combat and i'd like to enjoy the combat in this game. But i'd almost rather none over this. It's not that it's hard, it really isn't for the most part. It just never feels enjoyable. I'm never excited to get in a fight, or satisfied having won one. It just feels like an irritating obstacle I have to navigate to get back to the fun part of the game. I've tried mods like the combat overhaul, but they don't make it more interesting, they just make it a bit more tolerable at best. Minecraft has a similar issue. It has very primitive and unsatisfying combat, yet most of it's later updates were mainly focused on introducing more dungeon crawling type content. The problem with this should be self evident. People weren't hooked on these types of games because of the combat, and the combat is not either of their strong suites. Bottom line If you want to focus on combat, before you add more dungeons you need to focus on ironing out the actual feel and depth of the combat first. Or else the dungeons are just going to feel like a chore. If you're not going to do that, then you should design the game around it's strengths. Like the building and crafting, instead of the combat.

This is a huge oversight in the latest update, elk calves are identical to whitetail deer fawn. This makes it very confusing when you're trying to capture a calf. Personally I captured a whitetail since I couldn't tell a difference from the elk caught in the trailer and the whitetail I caught in game, then I wasted a bunch of time and food raising it. This may seem like a trivial issue to vets, but for me and any newer player who makes this mistake this is a potential quit moment. Not many people are going to be willing to make up the wasted year if they didn't notice their mistake until too late. Other deer fawn have unique models, so it makes no sense elk calves don't, especially when identifying them is much more important than identifying the others.

Looking back at it now white tail fawns and elk calfs are identical for some reason. I checked creative mode and there's no tamable deer. So I'm guess I just wasted half a year raising a useless animal.