Improve in game information about Pit Kiln

[Vileace]

In game; the handbook and on screen information, is lacking on how to build and use the Pit Kiln.  I understand that on screen information space is limited,  but the information that is displayed on screen is limited in its helpfulness and even a little confusing.   The information in the handbook is very lacking.

Consider readdressing the onscreen information for the Pit Kiln taking a new users perspective into account.  

For the handbook consider adding the information on the Pit kiln wiki page (https://wiki.vintagestory.at/Pit_kiln) specifically the materials and steps section of the page.

I do understand that it is hard to include everything,  but as a new player, I am spending a lot of time in the wiki, tabbing back and forth, instead of using the handbook.

[Brady_The]

Welcome to the forum, Vileace.

From the perspective of a new player, what information about the pit kiln are you missing, or could be presented better?

The build order is there. The materials are shown. To me it looks pretty straight-forward.

Edited November 30, 2024 by Brady_The

[LadyWYT]

Welcome! I agree with @Brady_The, the handbook already explains it succinctly, and the in-game overlay(which should be enabled by default) informs the player what should be added next once the unfired items are placed into the hole. I can't really think of anything else to add to what's already there.

1 hour ago, Vileace said:

I do understand that it is hard to include everything,  but as a new player, I am spending a lot of time in the wiki, tabbing back and forth, instead of using the handbook.

Whether it's the wiki or the handbook, or some combination of the two, I'm pretty sure this is the experience of every new Vintage Story player, even if they already have experience in other survival-type games. Despite being early in development, Vintage Story is quite a meaty game, with mechanics that are a bit more nuanced than other games in the genre. Many of the gameplay loops overlap with each other, so you'll often need to look up multiple pieces of information to complete a task, at least until you're experienced enough to commit it to memory. The in-game tutorial is enough to get a new player started with the very basics that they'll need to achieve everything else in the game, while the more detailed information about how to achieve such and what different things do is contained within the handbook for the player to figure out at their leisure.

When I first started playing I spent a good chunk of time with the handbook cracked open figuring out how to accomplish different things, and while it felt daunting at first the results were oh-so-satisfying!

[Vileace]

1 hour ago, Brady_The said:

Welcome to the forum, Vileace.

From the perspective of a new player, what information about the pit kiln are you missing, or could be presented better?

The build order is there. The materials are shown. To me it looks pretty straight-forward.

When I went to build the pit kiln after only using the handbook I thought it only needed 2 dry grass based on the prompt and the handbook info.  When you add the grass the number does not change after adding the first one, so I was confused (It takes 2 dry grass out of your inventory for each click, but I did not see this the first few times using a pit kiln).  I added the second dry grass and the prompt again did not change.  If I did not have more dry grass, I would have through that something was broken.  Having more dry grass I just kept adding.  The same thing happens with the sticks.  The game makes it seam as if I only need 2 dry grass and does not mention layers of dry grass or sticks.  The fuel, for me was firewood so it was easier to tell how many would be needed do to the placement.  I have not tried other fuel so I do not know if this applies to other fuel,  but even on your screen shot for fuel it does not indicate the amount needed.

I like to know the full receipt before building something. So the information from the wiki would be helpful.

• 10 dry grass: 5 layers of dry grass, 2 grass per layer.
• 8 sticks: 2 layers of sticks, 4 sticks per layer
• 4-8 pieces of fuel. Note that your choice of fuel directly affects how long the pit kiln takes to finish.

Lastly, I think this information is important to add to the handbook.  A pit kiln is created by digging a hole 1 block deep surrounded by full blocks that are non-flammable. If you try to add tinder to a pit bordering a block that's flammable (such as peat), or that is less-than-full (such as a path block).

[LadyWYT]

12 minutes ago, Vileace said:

Lastly, I think this information is important to add to the handbook.  A pit kiln is created by digging a hole 1 block deep surrounded by full blocks that are non-flammable. If you try to add tinder to a pit bordering a block that's flammable (such as peat), or that is less-than-full (such as a path block).

That information is already there though? A 1x1x1 hole is a one block hole, which would also suggest that each side should be a full block as well in order to make it a proper pit. It's also not a good idea to build your kiln structure out of flammable material, given that you quickly will not have a kiln anymore once you set it alight. Likewise, it's not a good idea to leave flammable material next to the kiln(like tufts of grass, hay beds, reed baskets, etc), as these will also ignite rather quickly and spread the flames to other flammable objects nearby.

18 minutes ago, Vileace said:

I like to know the full receipt before building something. So the information from the wiki would be helpful.

• 10 dry grass: 5 layers of dry grass, 2 grass per layer.
• 8 sticks: 2 layers of sticks, 4 sticks per layer
• 4-8 pieces of fuel. Note that your choice of fuel directly affects how long the pit kiln takes to finish.

I could see this information being added, possibly, but at the same time...it's kinda already self-explanatory, in my opinion. The in-game interface prompts you to put dry grass into the pit after you've placed your unfired items; it's 2 grass per layer, so you just add grass until it prompts you for sticks. Rinse and repeat for sticks until it prompts you for fuel. Fuel is a little more variable--most items will only require 4 pieces of fuel, but storage vessels will require 8(and are currently the only ones that require 8, I believe). Once you've placed enough fuel, the game prevents you from placing any more fuel and instead prompts you to light the kiln. It seems fairly straightforward to me, at least, and after the first couple of firings it was fairly simple to figure out the exact amounts needed for the future.

The other potential issue I see with adding specific numbers like this, is that it works for the pit kiln but not other structures necessarily. A bloomery or refractory you might be able to list the minimum number of items that you'll need to build one, but structures like windmills and things that go with them are a different matter since players will build them to varying specifications. I'm not sure I want to think about the extra details that Jonas contraptions might require.

[Thorfinn]

I can see the bit about path blocks. It's not unreasonable to think paths are a good idea. I think I did exactly the same thing early on.  I have no idea why they are not full height. 

Knowing the full price up front? Dunno. You didn't know how much clay it would take to make a bowl or how much wood it would take to cook bushmeat.

[Teh Pizza Lady]

6 hours ago, Vileace said:

• 10 dry grass: 5 layers of dry grass, 2 grass per layer.
• 8 sticks: 2 layers of sticks, 4 sticks per layer
• 4-8 pieces of fuel. Note that your choice of fuel directly affects how long the pit kiln takes to finish.

I agree, it doesn't make much sense to have some information on the wiki and not include it in the game. However the in-game manual doesn't give you specifics on anything. If you want to know everything before-hand, then why not memorize the entire wiki before even touching the game? For that matter, why even play the game, if you're going to take the experience of exploring the game's mechanics away from yourself?

[LadyWYT]

13 minutes ago, traugdor said:

I agree, it doesn't make much sense to have some information on the wiki and not include it in the game.

I actually disagree, although it depends on the information in question. All the general information needed to get started and advance throughout the game is contained within the handbook. For specific numbers and construction setups, the handbook gives guidelines over which pieces you need, but leaves it up to the player to figure out how to actually put the pieces together. It's something that may be de-jankified in the future, but in my experience it's been fairly intuitive.

Now for lore information--that's a bit different. All the lore information(or what we currently have, anyway) is accessible in the game, barring the short stories pinned at the top of the forums(The Morning and Ghosts). The catch is that it's fragmented, and you'll need to track down all the different fragments and piece them together yourself, whether it be books, tapestries, trader gossip, etc.

I will also note that after taking a look at the wiki page for the pit kiln...I don't think all the information listed there is correct. Specifically, the bit about the fire spread radius. The horizontal radius of 2 blocks feels accurate based on my experience(I've burned down at least one base and accidentally incinerated multiple other things with them, myself included). But the 3 block vertical radius doesn't feel accurate at all; I usually have a dirt block hovering above the kilns so rain/snow doesn't extinguish them, and it's never set the grass on top on fire. Could just be dumb luck, but the wiki can be a little iffy.

22 minutes ago, traugdor said:

If you want to know everything before-hand, then why not memorize the entire wiki before even touching the game?

I mean, I watched several YouTube videos to see if it would be a game that I would enjoy before deciding to spend my money on it. I also figure that if I'm after a step-by-step detailed walkthrough for a thing, I'll probably be heading to YouTube anyway to find a video about it, as I do for other games. Now in regards to potential story spoilers...sometimes I go hunting for spoilers or spoiler-type content, because I'm curious what's potentially coming later on.

But in any case, I don't think it's an entirely unreasonable request...but I also don't think it's a necessary change, given that all the information needed is already there for the finding.

[Teh Pizza Lady]

18 minutes ago, LadyWYT said:

I actually disagree, although it depends on the information in question. All the general information needed to get started and advance throughout the game is contained within the handbook. For specific numbers and construction setups, the handbook gives guidelines over which pieces you need, but leaves it up to the player to figure out how to actually put the pieces together. It's something that may be de-jankified in the future, but in my experience it's been fairly intuitive.

if it's in the game, it should be on the wiki
if it's on the wiki, it should be in the game

If something is included on the wiki, but isn't in the game or cannot be found by playing the game, then it should be removed from the wiki.

The game doesn't necessarily have to spell everything out for you. Part of the charm of the game is tinkering with things and figuring it out. Sometimes you just need to be 2 grass short of a pit kiln for it to sink in just how much of your survival is hinging on you actually learning how to play the game. Sometimes you need to walk past horsetail 20x before you figure out what it looks like because I totally didn't do that before. lol

 

I think we're saying the same thing at this point.

[Facethief]

9 hours ago, LadyWYT said:

All the lore information(or what we currently have, anyway) is accessible in the game, barring the short stories pinned at the top of the forums(The Morning and Ghosts).

I actually did find some of The Morning in lore books once. Might’ve been a mod, but I’m pretty sure it wasn’t.

[Echo Weaver]

11 hours ago, LadyWYT said:

Now for lore information--that's a bit different. All the lore information(or what we currently have, anyway) is accessible in the game, barring the short stories pinned at the top of the forums(The Morning and Ghosts).

Where are these short stories?

[LadyWYT]

2 hours ago, Facethief said:

I actually did find some of The Morning in lore books once. Might’ve been a mod, but I’m pretty sure it wasn’t.

I wasn't sure, so I erred on the side of caution and assumed it wasn't a vanilla addition.

39 minutes ago, Echo Weaver said:

Where are these short stories?

At the top of the forums, under the Media tab.

https://www.vintagestory.at/stories/storyexcerpt-themorning.html/

https://www.vintagestory.at/stories/storyexcerpt-ghosts.html/

[Thorfinn]

15 hours ago, LadyWYT said:

But the 3 block vertical radius doesn't feel accurate at all;

Pretty sure it's 3. I don't chance it anymore.  A couple versions ago, I had the brilliant idea  that hay blocks three spaces above my pit kilns was a great way to keep rain off the kilns.

It's pretty easy to check. Put a tool rack filled with all your copper tools 3 above a pit kiln. Which I've also done.

[Bumber]

20 hours ago, LadyWYT said:

But the 3 block vertical radius doesn't feel accurate at all; I usually have a dirt block hovering above the kilns so rain/snow doesn't extinguish them, and it's never set the grass on top on fire.

Is it possible the dirt block is protecting the grass from below?

19 hours ago, traugdor said:

If something is included on the wiki, but isn't in the game or cannot be found by playing the game, then it should be removed from the wiki.

Disagree. The other block game doesn't tell you how to build circuits with the red dust, yet all the minutiae are found on the wiki. An explanation would be out of place in-game, yet you shouldn't need a degree in electrical engineering to figure out how to build the more interesting things. Same goes for how fast you burn hunger doing a given action without having to run a bunch of personal experiments.

The wiki is more convenient than tracking down a forum or Reddit post somewhere. If it's just going to be a repeat of the handbook, then why have an editable wiki versus an online manual?

[LadyWYT]

19 minutes ago, Bumber said:

Is it possible the dirt block is protecting the grass from below?

Possibly, or perhaps an oversight in the code and it doesn't check for combustible grass in a vertical radius. Hence why I suspect outdated information on the wiki.

22 minutes ago, Bumber said:

The other block game doesn't tell you how to build circuits with the red dust, yet all the minutiae are found on the wiki. An explanation would be out of place in-game, yet you shouldn't need a degree in electrical engineering to figure out how to build the more interesting things.

There's actually a mod for that game that adds more complex contraptions, that has a sort of built-in mini tutorial similar to a Lego manual that shows you how to put different pieces together and how they function. However, I don't think something like that would really fit the tone of Vintage Story; it seems to be more geared towards teaching the player the very basics and letting them figure out the rest for themselves, albeit with a wealth of knowledge at their fingertips in the form of the handbook. Now that I think about it...it's somewhat a throwback to the oldschool days(for me that's Age of Empires 2, Spyro, and Crash Bandicoot era) where the game manuals or strategy guide books would probably be the first place you'd look if you got stuck on a particular game. Not that the internet didn't exist, but it wasn't the wealth of game knowledge that it is today.

I think that's also the strong point of things like wikis and YouTube videos; they can provide more detailed information about certain parts of a game, that you might not be able to easily access otherwise. Now of course, they can also be completely bogus, so you do need to be careful which sources you're using.

[Maelstrom]

On 11/30/2024 at 8:24 PM, traugdor said:

if it's in the game, it should be on the wiki
if it's on the wiki, it should be in the game

Since this hasn't been said.  Although Tyron hosts the wiki, it is solely a player based initiative to update information on the wiki.  Information in the wiki can be out-of-date. 

The handbook is ALWAYS correct.

[Maelstrom]

On 12/1/2024 at 5:01 PM, LadyWYT said:

Now that I think about it...it's somewhat a throwback to the oldschool days(for me that's Age of Empires 2, Spyro, and Crash Bandicoot era) where the game manuals or strategy guide books would probably be the first place you'd look if you got stuck on a particular game. Not that the internet didn't exist, but it wasn't the wealth of game knowledge that it is today.

I remember when all you got was the game and the handbook.  From there it was talk with friends or buy a cheat book.  Internet?  Uh, that thing like at the beginning of the movie Wargames?  It was solely figure things out by trial and error with many restarts.  One game, that I love to this day, would take 2 hours to make the initial party of six, wander into the dungeon to hopefully survive one encounter.  Hopefully it didn't result in a TPK, which did happen to me once or twice.  Wizardry: Proving Grounds of the Mad Overlord is the definition of grinding since there is only one boss and no mini-bosses.

[Echo Weaver]

5 minutes ago, Maelstrom said:

I remember when all you got was the game and the handbook.  From there it was talk with friends or buy a cheat book.  Internet?  Uh, that thing like at the beginning of the movie Wargames?  It was solely figure things out by trial and error with many restarts.  One game, that I love to this day, would take 2 hours to make the initial party of six, wander into the dungeon to hopefully survive one encounter.  Hopefully it didn't result in a TPK, which did happen to me once or twice.  Wizardry: Proving Grounds of the Mad Overlord is the definition of grinding since there is only one boss and no mini-bosses.

You and I are clearly of an era. 

[Echo Weaver]

26 minutes ago, Maelstrom said:

Since this hasn't been said.  Although Tyron hosts the wiki, it is solely a player based initiative to update information on the wiki.  Information in the wiki can be out-of-date. 

The handbook is ALWAYS correct.

I'd been meaning to bring this up too. Wikis are generally community content. I notice that wiki content often includes caveats ala, "As of 1.18, this is true..." 

I find the handbook to be frustrating in ways that could probably be fixed, though. As recipes go, we don't need an individual search entry for every single wood variant of every single wood object. They're all the same. But my biggest pet peeve is how many items have an entry that amounts to, "Freditem, found by breaking Freditem." Well, yes, this is an object I've found in the world that drops itself when you break it, but what do you DO with it?? I end up having to put the game on pause to look the item up on the wiki to find out what it's for. 

[Maelstrom]

Some items do not have a use, like the clutter items in ruins.  If an item can be used in a recipe for something else it'll show in the handbook entry for the item in question.  Remember that you can put your crosshair on an item, press H to bring up the handbook entry for that item.  Target a block and press Shift + H to find the handbook entry for that block.

[Echo Weaver]

11 minutes ago, Maelstrom said:

Some items do not have a use, like the clutter items in ruins.  If an item can be used in a recipe for something else it'll show in the handbook entry for the item in question.  Remember that you can put your crosshair on an item, press H to bring up the handbook entry for that item.  Target a block and press Shift + H to find the handbook entry for that block.

Some items have uses that are not part of a recipe. As an example I scavenged a Cthonic planter and wanted to know what, if anything, I could put in it.

Stuff like that has happened several times.

ETA: Completely useless stuff, at least stuff from underground ruins, is pretty good about being labeled, "Useless clutter" (or something close to that). It's the sort-of useful stuff that tends to have this problem.

Edited December 3, 2024 by Echo Weaver

[Maelstrom]

I see what you mean.  Yeah, you gotta experiment a bit with some things.  But that's nothing new to us old school video gamers, right?

[LadyWYT]

18 minutes ago, Maelstrom said:

Yeah, you gotta experiment a bit with some things.  But that's nothing new to us old school video gamers, right?

I think this is one of the things that makes Vintage Story so appealing. It gives you all the information you need to progress in the game, but it doesn't explicitly tell you how to go about achieving that in your gameplay. That part you'll have to figure out for yourself, based on the resources you have at your disposal, and how you achieve the same sets of goals will vary based on how you decided to generate the particular world that you're playing on. That's also what makes the progression so satisfying; it was your effort that got you that nifty new tool/weapon, and not the game just handing it to you just because.

8 hours ago, Maelstrom said:

Since this hasn't been said.  Although Tyron hosts the wiki, it is solely a player based initiative to update information on the wiki.  Information in the wiki can be out-of-date. 

The handbook is ALWAYS correct.

Pretty much one of the points I was trying to make, albeit in perhaps the most inefficient fashion possible. This sums it up much better.

[Krougal]

6 hours ago, Maelstrom said:

I see what you mean.  Yeah, you gotta experiment a bit with some things.  But that's nothing new to us old school video gamers, right?

I must be the exception, the older I get, the less patience I have, and you can't get any more old school than Pong.

Time seems to pass faster and faster the older I get, which might explain my diminishing patience.

I frequently say "Oh like a couple weeks ago blah, blah, blah" and my wife will correct me with "No dear, that was 6 months ago"

[Bumber]

On 12/3/2024 at 9:08 PM, Krougal said:

I must be the exception, the older I get, the less patience I have, and you can't get any more old school than Pong.

Time seems to pass faster and faster the older I get, which might explain my diminishing patience.

I frequently say "Oh like a couple weeks ago blah, blah, blah" and my wife will correct me with "No dear, that was 6 months ago"

Can relate. Spent countless hours on Myst and Riven back in the day. Finally went back and beat them a decade later with walkthroughs.

Recently played Mother and Breath of Fire I+II on the Switch's NES. Ended up looking at online maps and guides a whole bunch because I don't have the patience to explore while being constantly interrupted by random battles.

Nintendo Wii was released 18 years ago. Gamecube 23 years ago (right after 9/11 terror attack). Feels like there was a bunch of time between those, and not so much up to the current date.

Anyway, that other block game's version 1.0 was over 13 years ago, just in case that makes anyone else feel old.