Do we really need a combat overhaul? What are your opinions on it?

[Cattastrafy]

Indeed, the key there is play style no doubt.

But I don't think we're encouraged to avoid combat. I think we're merely given the option. Which is spectacular.

[Josiah Gibbonson]

33 minutes ago, Thorfinn said:

So much depends on your playstyle. Killing drifters is nowhere near as effective in gaining fibers as just going out exploring for flax. Temporal gear? Don't need it if you don't get killed. Bored with combat? Try permadeath.

All I'm really wanting is the playstyle I prefer (Fighting monsters) expanded upon a bit. Like, I don't really enjoy farming, I prefer hunting and mushroom collecting for my meals. But some people love farming and animal husbandry. So what if they make animal husbandry in depth? I wouldn't care at all- doesn't affect my playstyle any. Those who want it would be better off for it

 

But if combat isn't your playstyle, I DON'T want the game to force anybody to fight, or learn a complex battle system. But for the people who do enjoy that gameplay style, I don't see why we can't make their experience have a bit more meat on it's bones. 

[Ceridith]

I'd count myself in the camp that is discouraged from combat in the default game. It just does not feel worth the hassle to fight the supernatural entities in many cases with how little, or literally nothing, that they drop much of the time. Personally, I find using the Betterloot mod actually strikes a reasonable balance and makes it so I don't feel like I'm wasting time and durability for little to no payoff. And this issue trickles down into other aspects of the game as well, as it makes temporal vortexes and storms more of an inconvenience to be avoided rather than engaged with if there just isn't a reward proportional to the time and risk.

Other than that I'm generally fine with combat in the game for what it is. I wouldn't want combat to be overly complex or active, in fact I'd be put off from the game if the combat were more active. I'd mostly like more variety of enemies and ways to engage them with new weapon types, although damage types and different resistances could be an interesting addition as well if done properly. My main gripes are balancing related, such as bow torn spawning too frequently in some cases and their attacks having too much accuracy. Or animals and entities in general not having enough passive sounds to announce their presence and as a result ambushing you from seemingly nowhere because of it. Bears should not be able to silently pass through foliage. 

[Josiah Gibbonson]

48 minutes ago, Thorfinn said:

Similarly, caving is not necessarily an exercise in combat. It can be, if you view killing as the only way to attain your goals. But there's absolutely no reason you have to do it that way. You can easily go in, spam torches until you start getting too many enemies to ignore, leave and let them despawn

I mean...you can do it that way, but it doesn't seem very fun to those who don't like combat. Maybe add a stealth mechanic of sorts so they feel more accomplished?

 

48 minutes ago, Thorfinn said:

But, again, if you see combat as the means to the end, you rank combat highly. If you enjoy crafting, building, or, the really novel part of the game, chiseling, combat is at best secondary. 

Exactly! That's why I enjoy this game. Everyone can have their own little gameplay loops to enjoy. 

 

 

And then you have people who like rod fishing who are crying in a corner right now 

[Josiah Gibbonson]

10 minutes ago, Ceridith said:

, in fact I'd be put off from the game if the combat were more active.

Agreed. First step would be making combat more enjoyable for when it does offer you those situations. Then it might actually come off as fun to those who currently don't enjoy it.  Should always be optional, though.

[Thorfinn]

31 minutes ago, Josiah Gibbonson said:

But if combat isn't your playstyle, I DON'T want the game to force anybody to fight, or learn a complex battle system. But for the people who do enjoy that gameplay style, I don't see why we can't make their experience have a bit more meat on it's bones. 

How do you do that, exactly? If you add in new attack routines or otherwise butch the AI, doesn't that change how other people are forced to deal with bears, for example?

No one forces you to raise livestock or grow vegetables, but you kind of need to deal with the bear at the door. That should be something achievable for those who are not ninja masters. Used to be you could just go onto your roof and throw spears, but no more. N00bs had to adapt to the increased difficulty of the AI changes. Unless they could find or make a mod to nerf them. Again, look at ModDB. Mods to nerf the combat are vastly more popular than mods to butch it.

Why make the n00bs and more casual players do something you refuse to do, that is, use a mod?

[Josiah Gibbonson]

20 minutes ago, Thorfinn said:

How do you do that, exactly? If you add in new attack routines or otherwise butch the AI, doesn't that change how other people are forced to deal with bears, for example?

Counterpoint, people who don't like combat won't deal with bears. They'll flee! But, if they do want to stand up to a bear, they can just do what they always do- stabby stab. But if they want to do it more effeciently, they'd wait for openings. 

 

As for hunters, it's a bear. You're best suited to take it on with a bow, a single grizzly can deal with like eight grown men at once in real life.

[Josiah Gibbonson]

24 minutes ago, Thorfinn said:

you kind of need to deal with the bear at the door. That should be something achievable for those who are not ninja masters.

So....combat IS or ISN'T optional? You could as you say, wait for them to despawn...

 

Not that'd I'd want them more difficult. Just...not so repetetive. 

[Thorfinn]

5 minutes ago, Josiah Gibbonson said:

So....combat IS or ISN'T optional? You could as you say, wait for them to despawn...

There's a big, big difference between 6 IRL seconds waiting for things to despawn and 11 IRL hours, doncha think? 

[EDIT]

That was one of the big complaints about the bowtorn. They didn't leave after sunrise. People had to figure out some way to deal with them, which was often no more than an enclosed ladder to get to despawn range.

Edited April 2, 2025 by Thorfinn

[Josiah Gibbonson]

1 hour ago, Thorfinn said:

There's a big, big difference between 6 IRL seconds waiting for things to despawn and 11 IRL hours, doncha think? 

[EDIT]

That was one of the big complaints about the bowtorn. They didn't leave after sunrise. People had to figure out some way to deal with them, which was often no more than an enclosed ladder to get to despawn range.

Really? I thought bears despawned at night because of the low light levels- I chased one into a cave and it despawned before my eyes TwT

 

I still do notice that about the bowtorn actually. I sleep the night away, wake up, go into my backyard, and then he's just still there, chilling like a super chill guy. Then he attacks me >:c

 

On a side note, I do appreciate how after enough hits, most animals flee from you. Makes it so in a hurry you don't have to commit to combat if they're around an area you wanna be in! 

[LadyWYT]

41 minutes ago, Josiah Gibbonson said:

Really? I thought bears despawned at night because of the low light levels- I chased one into a cave and it despawned before my eyes TwT

It's not just a matter of low light level. If a creature can still see the sky, they're fine. If they can't see the sky and the light level is too low, then there's a problem, but there's still a little bit of time before they just keel over.

As for the bear you chased into the cave--caves don't generally offer access to the sky or other light sources, so it makes sense that it would have despawned, though it's a little odd for them to despawn that fast.

[PrismaticaDev]

I think the combat is quite clunky, and could use a vanilla overhaul. Some people in the thread have argued that "it isn't a combat-focused game" but I think adding more complexity by giving the player more actions will actually make the combat feel more rewarding, and also easier over time for ALL players.

Currently, wolves/bears just sprint directly at you with an infinitely tight turn radius. The best strategy is to sprint backwards, hit them when they get close and rely on the knockback to slow them down momentarily while you continue sprinting. It's boring, and if you haven't developed that strategy yet, you just get torn to shreds immediately. There's currently no telegraphing, and no penalty for sprinting backwards/sideways.

In contrast, it would be more new-player-friendly to have wolves approach you, stand their ground and growl, or encircle you, and then periodically play a short "preparation" animation before jumping at you. The attack shouldn't hard-lock-on like it currently does.
This would be a great opportunity to have a side-step mechanic, or a block that is stronger/staggers when you time it right (eg. Valheim)

Players NEED ways to respond in combat, and they NEED to have some telegraphing before AND during encounters. The audio/visual cue for Bowtorns is a great step in the right direction and should be applied to other combat encounters.

[Per Edman]

The game needs basic movement and interaction to feel competely intuitive first. People keep saying "the jank needs to be fixed". Movement is just odd, higboxes are odd, feedback is unclear... Until movement and interaction are smooth, it's pointless to talk about building a more complex system. 

Oh and "it's not a combat oriented game" - that's all the more reason why combat should be clear and navigable with easy to understand hits and misses and unobstructed movement controls. Because in a non-combat oriented game, if you are killed in combat, it should at least be because you fought a difficult enemy who bested you, NOT because you couldn't tell if the bow was drawn far enough back and your guy didn't stop moving when you though he would. 

 

Edited April 6, 2025 by Per Edman

[Thorfinn]

"Hitboxes are weird" is not very helpful, unfortunately. What would be helpful is suggestions of what one thinks are good hitboxes. It's easy to play around with them. The JSONs are in

.\assets\survival\entities

The specific line you need to edit is (e.g., from bowtorn.json) 

	hitboxSize: { x: 0.7, y: 2.3 },

where x is horizontal bound, y is vertical bound.

Even if they are not officially accepted as canon, it would be easy to package up a DejankHitbox mod.

[EDIT]

Be aware that this value also defines the collision box. As you approach x=1.0, it becomes more difficult path through a standard doorway.

Edited April 6, 2025 by Thorfinn

[Steel General]

Rectangular collision boxes are a big part of the problem: they need to be beveled to dejank the character's interaction with corners.

A little more jank could be removed by making the character less bouncy, so that missing a jump up a block doesn't give you momentum in the opposite direction.

I've heard that the Minecraft emerald is the shape of the hit boxes for its villagers and players, and it seems just about perfect, but trying to find a source for that information failed: they appear to use rectangles.

[HalfAxd]

On 4/3/2025 at 12:59 AM, PrismaticaDev said:

Players NEED ways to respond in combat, and they NEED to have some telegraphing before AND during encounters. The audio/visual cue for Bowtorns is a great step in the right direction and should be applied to other combat encounters.

I like the audio cues we currently have (bowtorns, wolves, clicking shivers)... while it would be nice to hear a bear coming, there is real tension in blindly walking thru a forest wondering if you are about to have your face bitten off. 

For my style of play, I'd hate to see tropes like combo moves, rolling around on the ground, etc. in VS...  keep it simple...

[Moltrey]

As a new-ish player of Vintage Story, I am all for any improvements the team could make to combat that will streamline the feeling of the flow and cause & effect for the player. Combat gets a bit wonkish when mobs get inside your arm swing range and a few other things (of which I do not understand). I don't want any changes to make it easier to tank or ignore combat. To me, the hallmark of VS is the limited responses (at least early on) of fight or flight.

If combat could somehow feel better as the player w/o nerfing the experience and inherent difficulty we have now I would be a happy camper. I am still in baby steps learning to deal with how to spend my time efficiently while still surviving in the beginning and I think that's great!

The last thing I want (and I imagine the Devs too) would be for Vintage Story to cave and turn into a mealy mush of a game that doesn't stand its ground on intended experience. It's OK if your game is not for everyone and that should be celebrated. 

[Uncle__Karl]

id be so upset to my seraph rolling around on the ground like an idiot while a bear looks on in amusment. what i would like is for muskets to be in the base game to defend my homestead

[Josiah Gibbonson]

32 minutes ago, Uncle__Karl said:

id be so upset to my seraph rolling around on the ground like an idiot while a bear looks on in amusment. what i would like is for muskets to be in the base game to defend my homestead

A musket is a solution to anything if you try hard enough

[wasa]

my only gripe with combat in its current state is forced animations with cooldowns along with undetectable invincibility frames makes it where some attacks just do nothing at all. why should a rock that did 1.0 damage prevent my 5.0 damage falx from dealing any damage at all? not getting any feedback from an attack feels really clunky and frustrating when there's a bunch of drifters "protecting" each other by triggering the invincibility frames from thrown rocks.

minecraft gets away with it because its too easy and everything more or less does the same damage, so the jank isn't as noticeable as it is in VS.

Edited April 6, 2025 by wasa

[FlibFlob97]

I actually do not get people on here who don't want to engage in combat being scared of improved combat, if you wish to farm without having to fight ever then set the game to peaceful or do not engage in combat unnecessarily. Combat is in my opinion the only part of the game that currently sucks and you are often forced to fight by bears, wolves and temporal storms; in fact I have never had a day in this game when I haven't had to fight either a wolf(more like 3-5) or a drifter at night. Currently the temporal storms are tedious and annoying whereas if combat was fun then I and most people would look forward to them as an opportunity to use our fancy and expensive armor and weapons. Another thing is you put SO much time into crafting good armor that looks fantastic only to never actually see it because you cant fight in third person because the animations are so bad and actually using the armor or weapons feels boring. I would personally be happy just with improved attack animations using the whole body and better hit boxes and feedback, simple parrying and combos that vary by weapon type, then combat when you are forced to engage in it(which you often are) is actually fun and not complicated for those who do not wish to learn a more complex system. To me people on here being so opposed to something that a lot of people clearly want that largely wont affect them is strange,that is like me not wanting improved animal husbandry just because I wont use it or improved farming because I personally don't enjoy it which like combat is something you do have to engage in to survive long term. I also don't imagine the above suggestions being very hard to implement and realistically anyone can easily and quickly learn how to block and parry(which is just a well timed block).

[CastIronFabric]

On 3/30/2025 at 9:33 AM, Josiah Gibbonson said:

I definitely think we do. If the combat was similar to first person Skyrim with blocking and dual wielding it'd already be a huge improvement. 

 

Would we need a roll button? How would that work in first person??

 

Should they implement it sooner rather than later so they don't have to redo so many mobs, or should they do it at all?

 

What's wrong with Combat in your opinion, how could it be drastically improved?

no.

To be fair I play passive. Two things I really do not care about in video games, combat and story. I just want to keep it to crafting and building thank you.

I know my statement on combat is ironic given 7 Days to Die is one of my most played games ever but I didnt really play that game for the combat.

Edited April 7, 2025 by CastIronFabric

[Josiah Gibbonson]

1 hour ago, CastIronFabric said:

I just want to keep it to crafting and building thank you.

Thank goodness you have the option to turn off drifters and make all mobs passive then lol

[Chuckerton]

I think combat gets very tedious once you understand it as it currently is. Run backwards and hit enemy. Boring and brainless. Usually, I just run away out of boredom.

So, i agree that there should be an overhaul, and that it can be overhauled without making it a combat game. Not much really needs to be changed and it doesn't need to be that complicated to be fun.

     I really think that we should have quick little dodge (not a roll but just a quick lunge to a direction), and enemies should have attacks that lunge them or sweep instead of just "attack animation and if you're close you take damage"
     So, wolves for example, they would run up to a few blocks away and then do a forward lunge that starts ahead of you and ends behind you. If the lunge hits you, that's when you take damage. They can have their regular attack, but they will try to use their lunge instead. Maybe bears have a paw-sweep attack that you can dodge backwards out of their reach or jump over. Even if every enemy only has one "ability" type attack combat would be so much more engaging having to be mindful of it.
    Theres no lock-on system or fight area, you aren't forced into combat, and you can always just run away, but now combat is at least more engaging than "run backward and swing". Really this kind of 'overhaul' doesn't change that much. It adds a new behavior to enemies and a new thing that we can do to dodge. I really feel it fits with the style and theme of the game too.

     That and bows/spears (in ranged combat) should do much more damage but charge slower. Enough damage to 1-shot most "game" type wildlife like deer or goats. Crafting even a crude bow or a spear should be a "I can hunt with this" instead of "better make 3 more spears or 10 arrows so I can chase a deer across the continent pelting it with projectiles or just running it down with a spear.
     I really should only need to hit them once, and I feel it's fair to make them charge slower because these are ranged weapons (I'm only referring to the spear under the context of throwing it), charging fast only really helps you if you're only fighting from a few blocks away, which you shouldn't be doing with a bow anyway. Maybe the projectiles can get stuck in animals, so you have to butcher them to get them back? If you're concerned about abusing a hypothetical damage increase making it to where you have to do a not-instant animation to get your ammo back just means your ranged ammo is a "you have x many shots and then you have to run or fight in melee". I really think this would make it more engaging for ranged players as well, having to make each shot count.

Edited April 8, 2025 by Chuckerton

[SubtleOrc]

Yes I think combat is lacking in the game, and it's an annoying aspect as combat is basically foisted on you whether you like it or not ..

Not only is the combat weak but it's extremely predictable. Hit a wolf x number of times and you KNOW its just going to run away etc .. Drifters throw magic stones at you that have a 100% chance to hit.

I must admit the new Bowthorns and Shivers make life a little more interesting, but as it is, yes the base mechanic of combat is weak.

Half the issues are with the lengthy animations, but to me, it's the lack of variability and lack of thought put into the process makes it more of a chore than a delight.

For those who want the cozy building aspect and not the combat then there are enough in game options to turn off the combat for you, but for those of us who are happy to have it incorporated into our gameplay then there's no reason for it not be improved.

Also people who comment in a thread like this with "combat is not important to me, therefore it should not be improved" are all that is wrong with the world. Stop ...