Start the game off at a base level, then rise the difficulty with time

[Omega Haxors]

This serves as both giving newer players a chance to get started, while also giving more experienced players the challenge they're looking for. For those wanting a harder challenge from the get-go they can set the 'start time' which applies all the modifiers up to that point at once.

Modifiers are stuff like:

• Drifters will now throw rocks at you
• New enemy types spawning in
• Higher tier enemies can spawn more often
• Enemies can spawn during the day
• Enemies can now spawn on player-placed blocks
• Food will rot faster
• Your tools will rust
• Crops may die at random
• Enemies can attack blocks to (very slowly) break in

Temporal storms exist to temporarily raise the difficulty to give players a taste of what to expect in the near future, with light storms only increasing it by a little bit, and heavy storms increasing it by a lot. The point is, the difficulty always raises over time meaning you can never get too comfortable with the current status quo.

Think of it like ascensions in roguelikes, only it's a personalized experience of the game growing over time as you play it.

There would be a canon list of modifiers with set times, but also the option for players to make their own modifiers or have them randomize. Play into the fear of the unknown by not telling the player when these thresholds are crossed, let the player flip when suddenly a trick they've been abusing stops working because the enemies developed a counter.

Edited July 3, 2025 by Omega Haxors

[Zane Mordien]

I posted in your discussion thread but I can't help myself because this is one of my favorite topics.

Making the game more "newbie" friendly without making it stupid easy. 

1. Start the game with only drifters and drifter temporal storms, max tier 2. No Class selection at start, because you don't remember who you are yet. This gives people time to feel out the game before picking a class. Caves: Drifters spawn tiers as  normal. Shivers and Bowtorns restricted to spawning at .7 and below of sea level. 

• People who don't want to engage with the story content can sit at this stage and build their perfect base with some annoyance but not being overrun with bowtorn and shivers every night

2. Beginning of story progression. Every trader can give you a  map to a nearby location, 1k blocks away, that can be something like the Lazaret. No great loot, but this is where you remember something about who you were and then Character Class selection window comes up. You find a knick knack of some kind and return to the trader and the trader tells you that his friend the Treasure Hunter trader would be interested in that item. Temporal storms ramp up a little: Drifters of all tiers, Bowtorns and Shivers max tier 2. Reduced temporal gear drop rate  and no Jonas parts drop at all. Caves spawns return to normal. The idea being you could do a couple storms and get a temporal gear or two, but not just stock pile them like you used too. 

3. Resonance Archives and beyond: Talk to the Treasure hunter trader and give him the item you found in the first location. He then tells you about the RA and he wants his tin bronze pick axe. Then scale up the temporal storms as you go further into the story. I won't spend much time thinking about RA and beyond since they still have to add 6 more chapters. I'm sure in that time they will add new temporal storm mobs. Later storms could include flying rust creatures, at some point a boss creature you could fight, rust creatures that break walls and open doors, etc...

 

 

Edited July 3, 2025 by Zane Mordien

[Rudometkin]

Here's my review:

 

Support :

I really like this idea, even though I personally am not inclined to cater to newer players. My first world is in pure Survival Wilderness with a 20 live cap, and 40+ hours later I still have about 12 lives left. Yes, I am so far behind, I think I have almost finally made my very own first copper pickaxe. I started out basically blind, but received tips from my own little Vintage Story community along the way, and I have been sticking to the handbook since the beginning of my first day. Despite being new and thrown into an especially challenging world, I have enjoyed every moment of my Vintage Story experience. With that said, I understand other people do not like the hardcore challenge of being punched in the face through the computer screen by Vintage Story every 5 minutes, so I am happy to support an idea that gives them the opportunity to ease in without compromising my playstyle.

 

Positives:

• One positive tenet is obviously the general consideration for dynamic gameplay suited to the player's whim. To me, this alone outweighs all of the (potential) negatives down below.
• ----------
• Another positive tenet is the expanded gradual progression system of the various suggested nuanced mechanics that offers a virtual lollipop to new players. While I would likely not personally utilize this 'gradual progression system' in my worlds, I think it is great in the name of allowing players to ease into the massive storm of nightmare-fueled lightning bolts o' doom that will soon reign over their worlds.
• ----------
• I particularly like that this adds features such as tools being capable of rusting, crops happening to die at random, and enemies being able to break blocks to infiltrate your base. This could be implemented in a way that encourages players to properly take care of their tools, master more nuances of farming, and upgrade their bases with more hardy material. Features like these are how I personally would utilize the suggestion in my worlds. They would serve to enrichen the vast colors of Vintage Story's already-unique profession palette. This could lead into new items, methods, and systems meant for restoring tools, mastering the art of agriculture, and strengthening the defense of massive treasure-loaded castles - which gives more life to multiplayer servers by giving players more things to specialize in, which then leads into enrichening the bartering system Vintage Story already offers.
• ----------
• I also like the randomization feature which takes customization to a whole new level. As suggested, it enrichens the soon-to-be poor, weary, battle-scarred player's experience by helping ensure they have a healthy dose of fear of the unknown.

 

Potential Negative:

• This idea sounds like it could be a nightmare to code, but the difficulty of coding modifiers like these depends on how organized the code structure is. I imagine Vintage Story has solid code structure. I don't bring this up as a reason to turn the idea down, I just want to establish it here that it is a key factor in implementing it. It could be seen as a negative.

I am interested to see what some of the others would say about this, especially @Thorfinn and @LadyWYT, since I think I might have noticed them turning down other ideas in the past at least partially on the basis that they would be difficult for the developers to code, and that having more added features that are not being used in a particular world could slow down performance for all players, (perhaps by some sort of source-code bleed?).

 

Negative:

A world that utilizes the progression feature can be said to be logically inconsistent. Since, food can suddenly start to rot faster over time with no apparent reason other than the world is tailored for the player's benefit. This is a tiny hit to immersion and Vintage Story's logical consistency. However, it poses no considerable threat to the overall idea.

 

Conclusion:

• Overall a very well thought-out idea that certainly would be great if added to the game. Comes with some logical consistency issues that I would be curious to see if can be solved.

Edited July 4, 2025 by Rudometkin
Fixed typo and reformatted

[Teh Pizza Lady]

13 hours ago, Zane Mordien said:

No Class selection at start, because you don't remember who you are yet. This gives people time to feel out the game before picking a class.

I like this idea but make it less about remembering who you are, but just picking a class that resonates with your play style. This would of course, require the Blackguard class to be renamed because IIRC Blackguards have ties to the lore. I might entertain the idea of the first trader you talk to having a dialogue option to select your class in which they say, "Oh btw, I found some things in a heavily deteriorated bag and brought them with me to trade, but I think they might be yours. Would care to take a look?" And if you say Yes, you get to pick your class. But if you say NO, just give me some supplies, you get a random class and can't go back. This makes it still accessible to new players, but can potentially give veterans a new challenge, because honestly who really plays Tailor???

14 hours ago, Zane Mordien said:

Later storms could include flying rust creatures, at some point a boss creature you could fight, rust creatures that break walls and open doors, etc...

This would require these creatures to not only exist in the game for these storms, but also in that one Chapter 2 area where you go to fetch the macguffin. And idk about you, but I had a hard enough time fetching that danged thing without all the extra stuff trying to shoot me in butt for existing... also breaking chiseled blocks... I don't relish the idea of having to repair or recreate chiseled blocks. You also can't add an exception for chiseled blocks either, because players could just make their house out of chiseled blocks and tada, it's no longer penetrable. My 2nd protest against this idea is that other block game having flying creatures that are annoying. I shudder to imagine a horde of them. I would cower in a 1x1 hole in the ground and try not to cry.

I think your ideas are better suited to a mod so players can choose to play base defense if they want to, but with the story and exploration that's coming in later chapters, I don't think that's the direction that Vintage Story is supposed to take.. at least not yet.

[Thorfinn]

@Omega Haxors

1. How do you make it work with the existing story?
2. Why do tools suddenly need sharpening? What changed?
3. How does it work in multiplayer? Crops on one side of the fence die, those on the other side do not?

@Zane Mordien

1. Storms start a little butch, true. But the story says it's getting better?
2. 0.7 of sea level means all ores and caverns in uplifted mesas are pest-free? Or only infested by drifters?

@traugdor

I agree chiseled blocks is a huge deal. And making them immune just means you go around hammer and chisel and tap each block on the bottom row or two. You might be able to just let them slowly phase through the wall, but are they vulnerable and held in that state? Just throw rocks until they die? How did they gain that ability when the situation is getting better? Makes no sense. I agree that a gradual ramp up in difficulty is absurd from a story standpoint. It's fine for a game, but does not belong in this game, with this story.

[Thorfinn]

12 hours ago, Rudometkin said:

having more added features that are not being used in a particular world could slow down performance for all players, (perhaps by some sort of source-code bleed?).

Do you simply not understand how computers work? If you don't want "source-code bleed" whatever that means, you link in a .dll at runtime. You know, add a mod.

[EDIT]

Wait a minute. Is that what you have been on about this whole time? Your objection is not to mods, but to user-supplied mods? At the moment, there are no Anego-supplied mods that I know of, so that would need to change, but is that all that has you so fired up?

Edited July 4, 2025 by Thorfinn

[Rudometkin]

Thorfinn raises a good point that I didn't even think about regarding multiplayer compatibility. It seems everyone on a server might need to share the same settings for the sake of overall world consistency and avoiding confusion.

This would be a hit on the progression system for many players who join the server late, almost nullifying the point of the idea to begin with for multiplayer servers. But it still works well enough in my opinion for singleplayer to justify being added.

[Thorfinn]

11 minutes ago, Rudometkin said:

But it still works well enough in my opinion for singleplayer to justify being added.

The question is not whether it works per se, but whether it works in this story. In this game.

Given the storyline, why does this make sense?

[Zane Mordien]

@Thorfinn

1) To me this could be explained by the fact that we are newly returned to the world and the rust realm is slowly taking notice of our existence up to the current level of the storms. This could fit into the story because as we continue poking and prodding the rust realm in chapters 3-8, it could start to get worse again with new creatures.

2) I guess uplift would be drifter only. What can you find in uplift typically? Bronze precursors, copper and brown coal typically?

12 hours ago, traugdor said:

This would require these creatures to not only exist in the game for these storms, but also in that one Chapter 2 area where you go to fetch the macguffin.

Well I just assumed they would add more monsters anyway in later chapters. I'm not advocating for them. 

12 hours ago, traugdor said:

And idk about you, but I had a hard enough time fetching that danged thing without all the extra stuff trying to shoot me in butt for existing... also breaking chiseled blocks... I don't relish the idea of having to repair or recreate chiseled blocks.

I'm just assuming the worst case scenario. I feel like they are chasing the meta on the storms so as people figure them out they will just keep adding stuff, but you are probably right. I don't think they want to break your base since a big part of many players experience is building a work of artbase.

 

12 hours ago, traugdor said:

I like this idea but make it less about remembering who you are, but just picking a class that resonates with your play style.

I was just trying to fit it into the story. You start as a commoner with no bonus or negatives to give you time to figure out your play style and then when you get to this "quest" you pick what you like or stay commoner. I think it would be nice if it had a little lore though so when you do this it gives you a flash back of story to kind of get you going on the main story.

 

9 minutes ago, Rudometkin said:

This would be a hit on the progression system for many players who join the server late, almost nullifying the point of the idea to begin with for multiplayer servers. But it still works well enough in my opinion for singleplayer to justify being added.

Yeah multiplayer would be an issue with progression based stuff. Basically it would end up being as one person progressed it would just progress for everyone on the server, but it sort of does that now anyway. The first person that goes to the story location gets all of the loot and unlocks the progression. Everyone else just goes and fights the boss because all of the doors are open and the elevator is turned on.

I don't think that kills the idea though, because the Tyron has said before the game is really best when played with a small group of people. Unless they start making instanced versions of the story locations the game will always have story issues on an open multiplayer server. 

[Thorfinn]

4 minutes ago, Zane Mordien said:

What can you find in uplift typically? Bronze precursors, copper and brown coal typically?

I don't know about you, but that's what all my lanterns are made of. If I'm only going to be facing drifters, caving becomes less dangerous than sticking or clay-digging because I can control which direction they come from, and they often spawn where they can't get to me at all.

Edited July 4, 2025 by Thorfinn

[Zane Mordien]

@Thorfinn I didn't think about uplift really when I thought of this. All I was really trying to do was stop shivers and bowtorns from popping out of every nearby cave. My playstyle I don't get much from uplift and my lanterns I use copper + lead, moly...whatever. I have to be bronze rich to use it on a lantern, but I'm one of those people who try to get past bronze as fast as humanly possible so I just get enough to make the anvil and pickaxe.

[Rudometkin]

4 minutes ago, Thorfinn said:

Do you simply not understand how computers work? If you don't want "source-code bleed" whatever that means, you link in a .dll at runtime. You know, add a mod.

Of course I do. My computer turns on when I press the right button.

Since we are on the subject of simple understanding.

Let's see...Here it is! You said:

Quote

But, see, it's even easier than "if!naturalDisasters" -- just install the mods you like and everyone is happy. That way there's no code sucking up memory on the machines of people who don't want it, or whose machines can't handle it. Those who like that can have that, others don't take the performance hit.

This is what I was referring to. You made a point that if a suggestion implements a toggle option be put in the game (such as natural disasters coded with 'if' functions), then there would be extra code that might "suck up" memory on everyone's machines for mechanics that some might not even want or have enabled. So on that basis, you seemed to kind of suggest that adding any toggle options could pose this threat. That's what made me think of what you might think regarding this suggestion.

 

Quote

Wait a minute. Is that what you have been on about this whole time? Your objection is not to mods, but to user-supplied mods? At the moment, there are no Anego-supplied mods that I know of, so that would need to change, but is that all that has you so fired up?

What whole time? I've been 'on about' about several different points in several different threads for the past few days.

I have an objection to the dismissal of challenge-based ideas and reducing them to be only fit for mods in the name of ease for the sake of new players.

What do you mean by "fired up"? I certainly am not "hot-headed" and angry, if that is what you are insinuating.

[Thorfinn]

6 minutes ago, Rudometkin said:

This is what I was referring to. You made a point that if a suggestion implements a toggle option be put in the game (such as natural disasters coded with 'if' functions), then there would be extra code that might "suck up" memory on everyone's machines for mechanics that some might not even want or have enabled. So on that basis, you seemed to kind of suggest that adding any toggle options could pose this threat. That's what made me think of what you might think regarding this suggestion.

Yes, because at present, the launcher does not place that if before runtime and link in a module. It simply sets a value that is checked inside the code. Disabling a feature does not prevent the code from being loaded, just whether it is executed. You need to get back one level to link in at runtime to prevent it from being loaded. You know. Make it a mod.

[EDIT]

That's why I'm so on about mods. If you don't want the feature, you don't have to pay the performance cost.

Edited July 4, 2025 by Thorfinn

[Rudometkin]

1 hour ago, Thorfinn said:

Your objection is not to mods, but to user-supplied mods?

This is a good question! It lead me to think about it deeply.

I am far more comfortable and satisfied with ideas being placed in official Anego Studios mods than in user-supplied mods, on the basis that Anego Studios would presumably keep them up to date and compatible with the latest and greatest stable versions of Vintage Story. I have confidence that Anego Studios would be reliable in that regard.

I do not have the same confidence for user-supplied mods. I see it often - mods you like that are not up-to-date and stopped getting updated years ago.

With that said, I am not simply against mods. I can appreciate and use them.

However, at the end of the day, I prefer more challenge-based, immersive, and complex systems continue to be added to the base game. This I feel is the most reliable method to keep Vintage Story growing in the right direction. Vintage Story is a challenge-based, immersive game with complex systems. Yes, growing and providing dynamic world settings to a game comes with a necessary evil, such as impacting computer performance, but Tyron is demonstrably still doing it anyway. He apparently thinks adding the natural disaster of 'spreading fires' as a world option is worth the potential necessary evil of causing some players to take a "performance hit" who may not want it to begin with.

[Rudometkin]

47 minutes ago, Thorfinn said:

That's why I'm so on about mods. If you don't want the feature, you don't have to pay the performance cost.

This is an excellent reason to be in favor of mods.  That benefit resonates with me.

We are beginning to establish common ground - maybe the start to a strong friendship?  

Edited July 4, 2025 by Rudometkin

[Thorfinn]

As one of those who likes the spreading fires, I'm fine with it. Spreading fire is not that many resources anyway, unless it is turned on and active. How much RAM does it take to say fire has a spread radius of  2, vs. 1? Not much. But if there's a fire? 24 blocks of potential fire danger vs. 8. Triple. Considering how huge fires can get? That cost is mostly paid by those who want that.

But that does not mean I think it's a good idea to continue adding fluff people don't use. That's Windows. Core function should be what the majority, say, 1 standard deviation plays with, beyond that, only if it is next to zero performance cost.

[EDIT]

Oh, and, of course, core functionality should be whatever Tyron's vision for the game is. His game, his decision. Want to see what happens when you start paying too much attention to the user-base? Look at any of hundreds of abandoned EA games on Steam. You get so far into the weeds you never finish the game you intended to make.

[/EDIT]

Far and away, my preference would be to have the team work on things already on the roadmap, or those things that are sufficiently popular to merit being added to the roadmap. Let everything else wait until the core is in the bag.

[EDIT2]

Quote

Anego Studios would presumably keep them up to date and compatible with the latest and greatest stable versions of Vintage Story. 

And this is precisely why they should not be in the business of mods right now. Every hour of coding it takes to make them and keep them updated is an hour that the full release gets delayed. Give it time. Have a little patience.

Edited July 4, 2025 by Thorfinn

[Rudometkin]

9 minutes ago, Thorfinn said:

Far and away, my preference would be to have the team work on things already on the roadmap, or those things that are sufficiently popular to merit being added to the roadmap. Let everything else wait until the core is in the bag.

This also resonates with me!

I am fine with supporting ideas on different levels, having more intense support and putting more urgency in the ones that pack heavy value into the core game, and saving ideas that are more bells and whistles as secondary.

In my opinion, this thread's idea hints at a mixture of fundamental and quality of life mechanics.

Edited July 4, 2025 by Rudometkin
Clarity

[WalrusJones]

I had different thoughts on the topic, hear me out.

The ideal way for scaling difficulty would be to have danger/difficulty be an aspect you prospect, the rift presence has a thickness and worse monsters are going to be deeper or in surface zones with thicker rift density. Say you could make charms that react to thift rift presence and map out rift density, trying to find areas with thin rift activity to settle in to avoid the worst monsters being able to spawn in your house. Better charms are more sensitive and let you differentiate between areas of lower rift presence to find even better locations.
With this, you could build in a little bit of leniency like how the game spawns you on a temperate area with easily knapped rocks, where a kilometer or so around spawns has a higher occurrence of thin rift presence zones. 

The reason I like this over a story progression or a time based system is that the passing of time/the story is irreversible, but migrations are regularly necessary to complete the tech tree, doing this brings the wonderful excitement of meeting worse enemies.
Rift storms would still draw out worse monsters than are normally seen in your zone, but you would have some engagement finding a good place to live, especially as these places get rarer and rarer as you migrate out for exotic resources.

Edited July 5, 2025 by WalrusJones