Genuine question, why is bismuth bronze called bismuth bronze even though it isn't bronze?

[Percutiens]

This is just a random thing I stumbled upon when I was researching things related to copper corrosion. I suddenly remembered that brass is an alloy of zinc and copper. But bronze on the other hand is typically an alloy of copper and tin. So in this case, shouldn't bismuth bronze instead be called bismuth brass because it uses zinc instead of tin? I have seen some online forums and blogs about using both terms interchangeably, but it just kind of seems weird to me that a copper zinc alloy is called bronze instead of brass. Anyone here ever noticed this? Or is it just me just acting weird for nothing?

Another thing to note is that we also have brass in the game which actually uses the correct term. If someone already talked about this before, please enlighten me.

[Echo Weaver]

Well, we also have black bronze, which is an alloy of copper, silver, and gold. I know exactly zero about metallurgy, but it surprised me that making an alloy of copper with two other soft metals would make a stronger one. 

[Krougal]

As you discovered, bronze and brass are sometimes used interchangeably.

Bismuth bronze was originally made of bismuth, copper and tin. That is how it is made in Dwarf Fortress.

Modern bismuth bronze, which is the recipe VS uses, really is bismuth brass as you noted, but it is still called bismuth bronze.

I imagine Tyron went with the zinc one to give us more options; maybe you can't find tin, but you can find zinc and bismuth.

If it needed tin too, then you might as well just make tin bronze anyway, since it is better.

Black bronze is a thing too, although it wasn't used for weapons or armor, and would be inferior to tin bronze as such.

Also tin bronze is as good or better than iron, but not in VS.

So why did the Roman legions use iron instead of bronze like the Greeks?

Iron was more readily available. The Roman's true strength was economy of scale and understanding of logistics.

Amateurs study strategy and tactics. Experts study logistics.

Edited August 10, 2025 by Krougal

[Krougal]

Oh, some musings on the superiority of black bronze and also steel weapons with gold or silver in them.

Maybe because of the otherworldly nature of the rot monsters, gold & silver have magical special properties that make it more protective vs them and also more damaging towards them.

 

[Michael Gates]

The distinction between "brass" and "bronze" is pretty arbitrary, especially since pre-modern people weren't usually starting with pure metals in the first place. When every different hole in the ground coughs up a different mix of copper, tin, arsenic, antimony, and about six other things, you don't get perfectly standardized alloys. 

Stuff like this is why archaeologists gave up a few decades back and started calling it all "copper alloy." 

[Krougal]

37 minutes ago, Michael Gates said:

The distinction between "brass" and "bronze" is pretty arbitrary, especially since pre-modern people weren't usually starting with pure metals in the first place. When every different hole in the ground coughs up a different mix of copper, tin, arsenic, antimony, and about six other things, you don't get perfectly standardized alloys. 

Stuff like this is why archaeologists gave up a few decades back and started calling it all "copper alloy." 

I am out of likes for the day, but yeah, great point!

[hstone32]

well a cursory glance at the etymology of the two words shows that 'bronze' is of persian origin, and 'brass' is of old english, ambiguously referring to some kind of mixture. When the French invaded, the two words got used interchangably due to their similar spelling and phonetics.

[LadyWYT]

8 hours ago, Krougal said:

Maybe because of the otherworldly nature of the rot monsters, gold & silver have magical special properties that make it more protective vs them and also more damaging towards them.

Could be, though I would chalk it up to just being a gameplay thing for balance. Gold and silver aren't particularly easy to acquire en masse like copper, tin, bismuth, and zinc, thus black bronze is the least attractive option in terms of material cost. However, if you give black bronze slightly better stats than the other types, now the player has more of a reason to pick black bronze over the other types.

8 hours ago, Krougal said:

I imagine Tyron went with the zinc one to give us more options; maybe you can't find tin, but you can find zinc and bismuth.

Probably this too. I'd also wager it's called bronze and not brass due to being part of the bronze tier of equipment. Players who are looking for the next step after copper will be searching bronze, not brass, and the only brass items you can really make at the moment are lanterns and torch holders. If you called it bismuth brass, it might be a more accurate name, but it would probably confuse many players and lead them to overlook the alloy when progressing.

[Thorfinn]

7 hours ago, hstone32 said:

When the French invaded, the two words got used interchangably due to their similar spelling and phonetics.

Is there anything the French can't mess up?  

[Krougal]

9 minutes ago, Thorfinn said:

Is there anything the French can't mess up?  

Wine and food

[Thorfinn]

3 minutes ago, Krougal said:

Wine and food

Yes, forgot about their food. I'm particularly fond of their fries. And toast.

Edited August 10, 2025 by Thorfinn

[Krougal]

1 minute ago, Thorfinn said:

Yes, forgot about their food. I'm particularly fond of their fries. And toast.

/facepalm

 

[Maelstrom]

@Krougal LOVE that film!

 

As for why is it bismuth bronze?   Aside from another avenue to bronze (if one does not have tin) bizmuth bronze also has different stats, typically higher durability, but less damage for weapons.