v1.21.0-rc.5/rc.6 - Story Chapter 2 Redux

[Facethief]

3 hours ago, alberto_ascani said:

but this thread was about criticisms of the previous generation

…I hope you meant thread of conversation, and not topic.

[PandaBearJelly]

47 minutes ago, alberto_ascani said:

Yes, it's objective with respect to the aesthetic pact the developers have decided to give the game. I'm a little tired of repeating myself. No one wants perfection or says it's the game's problem, but it seriously compromises the previous generation and severely undermines the most beautiful component of Vintage Story: the aesthetics of the bases. I've repeated dozens of times that the problem isn't the biome or the single thing, but how many there are within a short distance. I repeat, this is objective with respect to the aesthetic coherence of the game. Then again, obviously everyone has their own tastes, and that would be a shame.

What you’re describing is, by definition, subjective. While there are design principles that can guide things, aesthetics are ultimately a matter of taste. Game design, especially world generation, is as much an art form as it is a technical challenge. The devs can shape the world however they want within their technical abilities, and it’s completely valid if you’re not a fan of where they land. Doesn't make it right or wrong.

I get where you’re coming from and I understand why the sharp lines at their current frequency bother you. Where I get hung up is that you keep framing your personal opinion as an objective fact. Everything you’ve said is still subjective, and plenty of people here clearly see it differently (otherwise you wouldn’t be getting so many replies lol).

Personally, I don’t see the current worldgen as a major issue. I’d still love to see it continue evolving. More variation in blending and balance would be great, though I also enjoy the occasional dramatic or sudden transition. Some of it reminds me of where I live, which I think is pretty cool (and part of why I don’t feel it’s as big a problem as you do). 

Anywho, I just enjoy the discussion, no ill will! We can at least agree that more development into variation would be welcome. 

[alberto_ascani]

38 minutes ago, PandaBearJelly said:

What you’re describing is, by definition, subjective. While there are design principles that can guide things, aesthetics are ultimately a matter of taste. Game design, especially world generation, is as much an art form as it is a technical challenge. The devs can shape the world however they want within their technical abilities, and it’s completely valid if you’re not a fan of where they land. Doesn't make it right or wrong.

I get where you’re coming from and I understand why the sharp lines at their current frequency bother you. Where I get hung up is that you keep framing your personal opinion as an objective fact. Everything you’ve said is still subjective, and plenty of people here clearly see it differently (otherwise you wouldn’t be getting so many replies lol).

Personally, I don’t see the current worldgen as a major issue. I’d still love to see it continue evolving. More variation in blending and balance would be great, though I also enjoy the occasional dramatic or sudden transition. Some of it reminds me of where I live, which I think is pretty cool (and part of why I don’t feel it’s as big a problem as you do). 

Anywho, I just enjoy the discussion, no ill will! We can at least agree that more development into variation would be welcome. 

Honestly, your argument seems to me to be seeking a depth that isn't actually there, slipping into a rather forced relativism. It's obvious that personal aesthetic taste has a margin of subjectivity, but there's also an objective level, determined by the visual and conceptual rules that the developers themselves established in building their world. Ignoring this level and simply taking refuge in "I like it" or "it's subjective" means reducing every argument to a private opinion, which effectively opens up no space for shared reflection. It's a banal, sterile position that leads neither to growth nor to understanding the project we're discussing.

This isn't about exchanging personal tastes as if it were a barroom conversation, but rather evaluating a work that is based on precise rules, including visual ones, and that demands to be read on a more structured level. Otherwise, it becomes impossible to distinguish a reasoned critique from a simple "like/dislike," which is the lowest level of analysis.

Furthermore, the fact that I've received so many replies isn't so much because people disagree (especially since, notoriously, most forums are passive), but because I respond to everyone and, in many cases, people hadn't even grasped the point of the criticism. This, in fact, confirms how complicated it is to try to have a serious discussion when the other person keeps reducing everything to a subjective and individual dimension.

That said, it seems clear to me that we disagree not only on the level of opinions, but also on the conceptual and methodological level. And that's why, honestly, I find it pointless to keep repeating the same things in different words: not because there's no argument, but because there's no common ground for a true discussion.

I hope this post also provides closure for others and that they'll stop parroting two or three things: trying to offer ideas for improving the work means caring; defending it tooth and nail means undermining it.

P.S.
We'll see if 1.21 will come out like this in the end

[Krougal]

1 hour ago, alberto_ascani said:

trying to offer ideas for improving the work means caring; defending it tooth and nail means undermining it.

I'll admit I don't fully understand your entire post, but this was well said!

Edited August 20, 2025 by Krougal

[yanlong]

Can stable versions inherit archives?

[LadyWYT]

17 minutes ago, yanlong said:

Can stable versions inherit archives?

Archives, as in previous worlds/mods/other files, or "archives" as in the Resonance Archive story location? In any case, your worlds, mods, and things will still be present when you update to the latest stable version, as will anything you've discovered in the world. Some story locations may need to be regenerated when you update, since new content has been added to them in 1.21, but this shouldn't take long and the game will probably prompt you to let it update those locations when you first load an old world in the updated version.

[PandaBearJelly]

2 hours ago, alberto_ascani said:

Honestly, your argument seems to me to be seeking a depth that isn't actually there, slipping into a rather forced relativism. It's obvious that personal aesthetic taste has a margin of subjectivity, but there's also an objective level, determined by the visual and conceptual rules that the developers themselves established in building their world. Ignoring this level and simply taking refuge in "I like it" or "it's subjective" means reducing every argument to a private opinion, which effectively opens up no space for shared reflection. It's a banal, sterile position that leads neither to growth nor to understanding the project we're discussing.

This isn't about exchanging personal tastes as if it were a barroom conversation, but rather evaluating a work that is based on precise rules, including visual ones, and that demands to be read on a more structured level. Otherwise, it becomes impossible to distinguish a reasoned critique from a simple "like/dislike," which is the lowest level of analysis.

Furthermore, the fact that I've received so many replies isn't so much because people disagree (especially since, notoriously, most forums are passive), but because I respond to everyone and, in many cases, people hadn't even grasped the point of the criticism. This, in fact, confirms how complicated it is to try to have a serious discussion when the other person keeps reducing everything to a subjective and individual dimension.

That said, it seems clear to me that we disagree not only on the level of opinions, but also on the conceptual and methodological level. And that's why, honestly, I find it pointless to keep repeating the same things in different words: not because there's no argument, but because there's no common ground for a true discussion.

I hope this post also provides closure for others and that they'll stop parroting two or three things: trying to offer ideas for improving the work means caring; defending it tooth and nail means undermining it.

P.S.
We'll see if 1.21 will come out like this in the end

Honestly, I think some things might be getting lost in translation here, but I’m not sure it’s worth continuing a long back and forth. Long story short, I don’t think we’re as far apart as you believe.

That said, I’ll just leave it here: I’m looking forward to seeing how the worldgen develops too. I fully agree there’s still work to be done. 

[Compressed12Times]

All this because of some curved lines of gravel of different variety on the map lmao

[falco_lombardi]

Vintage Story players are allergic to criticism of their lil game and for some reason take it personally I guess. Tyron doesn't really help with this attitude tbh

[Thorfinn]

Easiest way to avoid this whole thing is to play without the silly map. You only notice straight lines from a few particular vantage points, like relatively high elevations near the end of one of those lines, and  arcs are very tough to see from anywhere unless you ladder up to high-elevation clouds.

[Maelstrom]

Disclaimer:  My comments are not intended for you alone.   There are others who have preceded you.   Now to my response...

 

2 hours ago, falco_lombardi said:

Vintage Story players are allergic to criticism of their lil game and for some reason take it personally I guess. Tyron doesn't really help with this attitude tbh

Not exactly.   It's more an allergic reaction to the delivery of the criticism.  Presenting one's opinion as fact is the primary offense.  To then double down and blame the ensueing firestorm on the attitude of others rather than introspect is mildly toxic, can create another firestsorm and leads to a thread being locked for turning into a dumpster fire.

In this particular case, the translating to/from Italian probably didn't help, either.

How to criticize (although it's better to offer critique instead) something that people love?  Be deferential.   Be willing to accept that others point of view may be just as valid your own.  Admit making a mistake when a mistake has been made, nobody's perfect and presenting oneself as perfect only shows a lack of maturity.

Edited August 21, 2025 by Maelstrom

[Echo Weaver]

37 minutes ago, Maelstrom said:

How to criticize (although it's better to offer critique instead) something that people love?  Be deferential.   Be willing to accept that others point of view may be more valid than your own.

Totally this. I might say, "Others' point of view is just as valid as your own."

When folks come in to offer criticism on a fan forum like this, what are they expecting to happen? A bunch of people are going to disagree with them. That's not hostility to criticism. It's just having a different opinion. So don't expect that everyone's going to shower you with praise on your insight.

I happen to think that the straight lines in the landscape are indeed a big issue that could point to serious worldgen problems. If they only turned up in 1.20, then hopefully the devs have noticed and are fixing it. Since I don't play RCs, I can't look myself to see if it's better. I also see the point of the folks who consider the issue an aesthetic thing that you don't even notice at ground level.

Edited August 21, 2025 by Echo Weaver

[Maelstrom]

25 minutes ago, Echo Weaver said:

Totally this. I might say, "Others' point of view is just as valid as your own."

good point.   In fact, GREAT point.  I'll correct my original comment.

Thank you!  

 

Edited August 21, 2025 by Maelstrom

[Ginnunga]

2 hours ago, Maelstrom said:

How to criticize (although it's better to offer critique instead) something that people love?  Be deferential.   Be willing to accept that others point of view may be just as valid your own.  Admit making a mistake when a mistake has been made, nobody's perfect and presenting oneself as perfect only shows a lack of maturity.

Agreed, and to expand on this is also knowing how to defend a point. It's easy to reject criticism and appear to reject all critique, so as the people defending the point it's also important to know when and how much to cede to critiques.

2 hours ago, Echo Weaver said:

I happen to think that the straight lines in the landscape are indeed a big issue that could point to serious worldgen problems. If they only turned up in 1.20, then hopefully the devs have noticed and are fixing it.

Agreed, I joined VS in 1.20 so I can't comment of the older worldgen, so it's important to understand whether this generation is an issue, or a byproduct of current worldgen. Does it also have an effect on the world, or is it mainly visual aspects, if it's mainly visual **I** consider it a 'minor' problem that doesn't require immediate fixing but for others it might be higher up on their priority list.

[Maelstrom]

This visual is exactly the rock strata changes for the single surface block seen in the color map.   Rock strata kind of have a terrain feature of their own near a boundary (as seen in the screenshots) where the top rock strata thins out for the underlying rock strata.  Go to those straight line borders and dig down a couple blocks into the rock strata and you'll like find the other rock strata not far below but gets deeper as you travel farther away from the border.

It's been this way ever since I started playing in 1.14.

[LadyWYT]

3 hours ago, Maelstrom said:

Not exactly.   It's more an allergic reaction to the delivery of the criticism.  Presenting one's opinion as fact is the primary offense.  To then double down and blame the ensueing firestorm on the attitude of others rather than introspect is mildly toxic, can create another firestsorm and leads to a thread being locked for turning into a dumpster fire.

 

3 hours ago, Echo Weaver said:

Totally this. I might say, "Others' point of view is just as valid as your own."

When folks come in to offer criticism on a fan forum like this, what are they expecting to happen? A bunch of people are going to disagree with them. That's not hostility to criticism. It's just having a different opinion. So don't expect that everyone's going to shower you with praise on your insight.

I happen to think that the straight lines in the landscape are indeed a big issue that could point to serious worldgen problems. If they only turned up in 1.20, then hopefully the devs have noticed and are fixing it. Since I don't play RCs, I can't look myself to see if it's better. I also see the point of the folks who consider the issue an aesthetic thing that you don't even notice at ground level.

Yeah I think this pretty much covers it, really. Just my opinion, but I don't think most of us get that upset when someone points out something they don't like about the world generation, game aesthetic, mechanics, or just other parts of the game in general. It's when changes are demanded to suit the preferences of a specific individual, that users start getting upset and jumping into the fray, so to speak. 

To be fair, "I don't like this and want it to change" is a valid opinion, but other players may or may not agree that it's something that actually needs to be changed about the game itself(that everyone will have to deal with), instead of being a mod(that players who want those specific changes can use without changing the game for everyone else). Opinions and ideas usually get much better reception if there's a detailed explanation of why a certain thing is an issue, and how the proposed change could make things better. Users might still disagree, but it's a much better ground for having a discussion about the issue.