Requesting a toggle to turn off offhand hunger modifier in world settings.

[OreEnthusiast]

Prefacing this by noting that I requested this before and got somewhat lambasted. Half by individuals who asked me to not waste the dev's time and half by people who made it sound like we were in the Salty Spitoon from Spongebob while simultaneously being afraid to call Minecraft by its name.

After further playing a good long while, and by that I mean I've been playing since the beginning of the year, I am still confident that I hate this feature and everyone I've introduced to the game thus far hates it even more due to them struggling with hunger. Problem though is that for some reason this particular feature seems very hardcoded into the game, and modders struggle to remove it. The mods that do exist utilize unreliable work arounds and/or are buggy and thus interfere with other mods. Example being: This alternative penalty mod, when adjusted to remove all penalties for having an offhand, also completely strips any penalties from the butcher bag weight system of the Butchering mod, a mod I always run on every playthrough. 

We're already able to modify a ton of other stuff in the game, so the ability to turn this off seems like a simple, quick, and highly appreciated QOL to implement. 

 

[Rainbow Fresh]

The butchering bag is supposed to give debuffs? I thought its whole schtick is to allow you to carry corpses without them debuffs like when you haul a whole ass bear over your shoulder. Anyway.

Screw configuration, the whole feature is a pointless mess and needs to either be removed outright or greatly changed and rebalanced. I have ranted about this before and I'll happily do it again. It is trying to punish using the "free additional inventory slot" in your left hand, which can only hold, like, 5 different items to begin with, 3 of which are specific off-hand exclusives or atleast unavoidable to put in the offhand by design. And for that I should be punished with the same effect as wearing a full on chain armor? Ridiculous. So yeah, as long as this exists I'd happily break the butchering bag if it means I can use Alternative Offhand Penalty to yeet that thang.

[OBAMFSpike]

1 hour ago, OreEnthusiast said:

After further playing a good long while, and by that I mean I've been playing since the beginning of the year, I am still confident that I hate this feature and everyone I've introduced to the game thus far hates it even more due to them struggling with hunger. 

Okay I love playing Blackguard and let me tell you a little secret I've learned. 

MUTE. 

Yep, and multiple lives. Ive come to terms with perishing a few dozen times the first couple of years and just not fretting about eating while there's so many other things to be done. It's flipping radical having multiple lives! Man oh man I never knew the possibilities. 

Anyways, I hope this helps A LITTLE even. 

I really enjoy vanilla settings too. Mods are less than desirable in my opinion as the devs have done a marvelous job with vanilla settings, again, my opinion. So yeah. Im dead serious. Mute. Get in the habit of storing things on the ground and in chests and vessels and keep your inventory empty-ish and when you die you'll be able to gather up some more survival goods. Keep them coffers full! Enjoy! 

The lore gave me the idea. Honest to God! 

[OreEnthusiast]

2 hours ago, Rainbow Fresh said:

The butchering bag is supposed to give debuffs? I thought its whole schtick is to allow you to carry corpses without them debuffs like when you haul a whole ass bear over your shoulder. Anyway.

Screw configuration, the whole feature is a pointless mess and needs to either be removed outright or greatly changed and rebalanced. I have ranted about this before and I'll happily do it again. It is trying to punish using the "free additional inventory slot" in your left hand, which can only hold, like, 5 different items to begin with, 3 of which are specific off-hand exclusives or atleast unavoidable to put in the offhand by design. And for that I should be punished with the same effect as wearing a full on chain armor? Ridiculous. So yeah, as long as this exists I'd happily break the butchering bag if it means I can use Alternative Offhand Penalty to yeet that thang.

Yes. There's supposed to be a functioning system that debuffs you based on the number of creatures you're hauling. Which I do actually agree with as I shouldn't be able to put 3 full sized adult bears in my magic bag and not have my legs buckle little. 

[OreEnthusiast]

2 hours ago, OBAMFSpike said:

Okay I love playing Blackguard and let me tell you a little secret I've learned. 

MUTE. 

Yep, and multiple lives. Ive come to terms with perishing a few dozen times the first couple of years and just not fretting about eating while there's so many other things to be done. It's flipping radical having multiple lives! Man oh man I never knew the possibilities. 

Anyways, I hope this helps A LITTLE even. 

I really enjoy vanilla settings too. Mods are less than desirable in my opinion as the devs have done a marvelous job with vanilla settings, again, my opinion. So yeah. Im dead serious. Mute. Get in the habit of storing things on the ground and in chests and vessels and keep your inventory empty-ish and when you die you'll be able to gather up some more survival goods. Keep them coffers full! Enjoy! 

The lore gave me the idea. Honest to God! 

Are you suggesting I mute my friends because they had criticisms about a game I asked them to purchase and play? 

And this has nothing to do with balance. I even don't have any difficulty playing the game to begin with. It's just an annoying mechanic with little purpose other than being used by some people to make a show of how VS is different from "the other block game".  

But, because I respect different strokes for different folks, I'm not here arguing against its existence. I just want a toggle. 

[williams_482]

5 hours ago, OreEnthusiast said:

Are you suggesting I mute my friends because they had criticisms about a game I asked them to purchase and play? 

I believe this person is suggesting that you mute the hunger pain noises.

I'll admit I'm often thrown by complaints about the 20% hunger from off hand penalty. In the early game before I'm food stable, I virtually never feel the need to put anything in my off hand for extended periods. If I'm out at night i'll cary a small stack of torches in my main hand, and if I run into trouble and want to fight I'll run around a small area spam placing torches to create a lit combat zone, then go back in with my spear(s) to fight. If that isn't viable for some reason, I'll offhand the torch for the maybe 30 seconds of actual fighting, burning off a negligible amount of additional satiety. By early summer (or sometimes as soon as I get a cookpot and bowl together, if mushrooms and wild crops are plentiful) my food situation is stable enough that eating ~10-15% more on average (20% more when hunger isn't paused by my latest meal, 0% more when it is) in order to explore at night or underground is pretty painless. 

That 20% is there to give you a small incentive not to use your off hand constantly, without being debilitating. I expect this mechanic to be revised in time, but I don't think the game will ever be set up such that carrying a torch or shield in your off hand 100% of the time comes without cost the way it does in Minecraft. Both because this forces the player to make choices, and because it's realistic: shields are heavy and awkward (there's a reason most ancient artwork of then-contemporary soldiers portrays shields rested on the ground when out of combat). As for torches, you try holding a stick upright over your head with your non-dominant hand for hours on end and see how that feels. 

Edited June 2 by williams_482

[LadyWYT]

1 hour ago, williams_482 said:

That 20% is there to give you a small incentive not to use your off hand constantly, without being debilitating. I expect this mechanic to be revised in time, but I don't think the game will ever be set up such that carrying a torch or shield in your off hand 100% of the time comes without cost the way it does in Minecraft. Both because this forces the player to make choices, and because it's realistic: shields are heavy and awkward (there's a reason most ancient artwork of then-contemporary soldiers portrays shields rested on the ground when out of combat). As for torches, you try holding a stick upright over your head with your non-dominant hand for hours on end and see how that feels. 

This right here. The offhand penalty is there to keep the player from using the slot as "free inventory", which is what happens all the time in Minecraft. In that game, there's really no reason not to carry something in your offhand, because there's benefits to carrying items there(quick shield access, easy torch placement, handy food storage, etc) but no drawbacks. Vintage Story tends to lean more heavily into realism and challenge by requiring players to make different choices in order to accomplish different goals and reap the benefits; basically, the player doesn't get much for free.

 

6 hours ago, OreEnthusiast said:

But, because I respect different strokes for different folks, I'm not here arguing against its existence. I just want a toggle. 

A toggle wouldn't be the end of the world, but I would prefer to just keep it to the modded realm rather than add to the main game. Having lots of customization options by default is generally a good thing, but it's also very possible to clutter menus too much and end up with a system that's very clunky for players to use. I'm also not really a fan of watering down the overall difficulty like this since it can easily start pushing the overall experience to be more like Minecraft rather than a game that's doing its own thing. 

[OBAMFSpike]

7 hours ago, OreEnthusiast said:

Are you suggesting I mute my friends because they had criticisms about a game I asked them to purchase and play? 

And this has nothing to do with balance. I even don't have any difficulty playing the game to begin with. It's just an annoying mechanic with little purpose other than being used by some people to make a show of how VS is different from "the other block game".  

But, because I respect different strokes for different folks, I'm not here arguing against its existence. I just want a toggle. 

No. Im suggesting muting the game when youre starving. 

[OBAMFSpike]

2 hours ago, williams_482 said:

As for torches, you try holding a stick upright over your head with your non-dominant hand for hours on end and see how that feels. 

You stole the words right from my mouth! Eloquently stated! 

[OreEnthusiast]

57 minutes ago, OBAMFSpike said:

No. Im suggesting muting the game when youre starving. 

Oh. My bad. I already do that a lot anyways but the noise no longer bothers me. If I get really invested in doing something and didn't bring food I just subsist off of bandages. 

[OBAMFSpike]

Yep, I just die well and go back and round up my gear. 

[OreEnthusiast]

1 hour ago, LadyWYT said:

 

A toggle wouldn't be the end of the world, but I would prefer to just keep it to the modded realm rather than add to the main game. Having lots of customization options by default is generally a good thing, but it's also very possible to clutter menus too much and end up with a system that's very clunky for players to use. I'm also not really a fan of watering down the overall difficulty like this since it can easily start pushing the overall experience to be more like Minecraft rather than a game that's doing its own thing. 

There's already a ton of customization within world settings, adding a singular extra button isn't suddenly going to ruin the game for people. 

 

1 hour ago, LadyWYT said:

This right here. The offhand penalty is there to keep the player from using the slot as "free inventory", which is what happens all the time in Minecraft. In that game, there's really no reason not to carry something in your offhand, because there's benefits to carrying items there(quick shield access, easy torch placement, handy food storage, etc) but no drawbacks. Vintage Story tends to lean more heavily into realism and challenge by requiring players to make different choices in order to accomplish different goals and reap the benefits; basically, the player doesn't get much for free.

I can already adjust the hunger rate and nullify any balancing the game does if I wanted to, but I don't. I just think this one singular mechanic is unnecessary and should have a toggle to be removed. 

[OreEnthusiast]

3 hours ago, williams_482 said:

I believe this person is suggesting that you mute the hunger pain noises.

I'll admit I'm often thrown by complaints about the 20% hunger from off hand penalty. In the early game before I'm food stable, I virtually never feel the need to put anything in my off hand for extended periods. If I'm out at night i'll cary a small stack of torches in my main hand, and if I run into trouble and want to fight I'll run around a small area spam placing torches to create a lit combat zone, then go back in with my spear(s) to fight. If that isn't viable for some reason, I'll offhand the torch for the maybe 30 seconds of actual fighting, burning off a negligible amount of additional satiety. By early summer (or sometimes as soon as I get a cookpot and bowl together, if mushrooms and wild crops are plentiful) my food situation is stable enough that eating ~10-15% more on average (20% more when hunger isn't paused by my latest meal, 0% more when it is) in order to explore at night or underground is pretty painless. 

That 20% is there to give you a small incentive not to use your off hand constantly, without being debilitating. I expect this mechanic to be revised in time, but I don't think the game will ever be set up such that carrying a torch or shield in your off hand 100% of the time comes without cost the way it does in Minecraft. Both because this forces the player to make choices, and because it's realistic: shields are heavy and awkward (there's a reason most ancient artwork of then-contemporary soldiers portrays shields rested on the ground when out of combat). As for torches, you try holding a stick upright over your head with your non-dominant hand for hours on end and see how that feels. 

I'm perfectly capable of holding both shields and torches in a normal position for hours on end with no issues. And considering I play blackguard, who by lore is much stronger than a average joe like myself, I do not see how he'd ever be inconvenienced by chisels, tongs, shields, torches, lanterns, ect.

Also, again, I'm here discussing my personal opinions on the matter which is that I think the mechanic is bad, and should have a toggle for people like myself who dislike it.  

 

[williams_482]

1 minute ago, OreEnthusiast said:

I'm perfectly capable of holding both shields and torches in a normal position for hours on end with no issues.

I assume from this that you do a lot of premodern reenactments, which would explain standing around with a shield for hours. What are you doing holding a torch for that long?

[LadyWYT]

28 minutes ago, OreEnthusiast said:

I can already adjust the hunger rate and nullify any balancing the game does if I wanted to, but I don't. I just think this one singular mechanic is unnecessary and should have a toggle to be removed. 

Sure, but what I'm saying is that making concessions like that leaves the door open to making similar concessions in the future. Things like bed spawning, turning hunger off entirely, making tools never break, removing the hunger penalty from cold and armor, etc. That's my main point. 

But it's a game, so who cares? Players should just be able to do what they want!

Ultimately, it's up to the devs to decide. They have a specific vision for the game; sometimes concessions need to be made to achieve the intended experience, but in other cases it's necessary to tell the player "no". In the case of the latter, that's where mods come in handy.

[Teh Pizza Lady]

In short: Not a good idea to add the toggle. Hardly anyone would use it.

In not-so-short: Not a good idea to add the toggle because such a toggle would go ignored by a vast majority of the player base. Just make a mod for it or install one of the existing ones and let it be. Things like this that require the ENTIRE playerbase to change need to benefit the playerbase as a whole, not just a subset of a subset of players. Things that would benefit a handful of players are better suited towards making a mod vs a change to the ENTIRE game played by EVERYONE. The dev work it would take to separate this cleanly and provide a toggle that only affected that without breaking other systems would take dev time away from features that actually matter that the majority of the players want, like... Chapter 3! I know it's not the response that you wanted, but clearly opinions haven't changed since you last brought it up, and I find myself agreeing with the previous dissenters.

[OreEnthusiast]

2 hours ago, williams_482 said:

I assume from this that you do a lot of premodern reenactments, which would explain standing around with a shield for hours. What are you doing holding a torch for that long?

I EDC a bucket hat, a compass, and a cold steel entrenching shovel. There are many things that I do that I can not explain well to others. 

[OreEnthusiast]

1 hour ago, LadyWYT said:

Sure, but what I'm saying is that making concessions like that leaves the door open to making similar concessions in the future. Things like bed spawning, turning hunger off entirely, making tools never break, removing the hunger penalty from cold and armor, etc. That's my main point. 

But it's a game, so who cares? Players should just be able to do what they want!

Ultimately, it's up to the devs to decide. They have a specific vision for the game; sometimes concessions need to be made to achieve the intended experience, but in other cases it's necessary to tell the player "no". In the case of the latter, that's where mods come in handy.

Can already do all of this in the settings aside from removing armor penalties last time I checked. 

[OreEnthusiast]

1 hour ago, Teh Pizza Lady said:

In short: Not a good idea to add the toggle. Hardly anyone would use it.

In not-so-short: Not a good idea to add the toggle because such a toggle would go ignored by a vast majority of the player base. Just make a mod for it or install one of the existing ones and let it be. Things like this that require the ENTIRE playerbase to change need to benefit the playerbase as a whole, not just a subset of a subset of players. Things that would benefit a handful of players are better suited towards making a mod vs a change to the ENTIRE game played by EVERYONE. The dev work it would take to separate this cleanly and provide a toggle that only affected that without breaking other systems would take dev time away from features that actually matter that the majority of the players want, like... Chapter 3! I know it's not the response that you wanted, but clearly opinions haven't changed since you last brought it up, and I find myself agreeing with the previous dissenters.

This has no negative impact on the playerbase other than dev time. And it would be suited to a mod if they hadn't coded it in such a weird way that makes it hard to remove without finicky mods. 

[OBAMFSpike]

Oh man. I surely am sensing some social media content of the torch shield carrier. 

I never hunger! 

NAM NAM NAM NAMMMMMM

 

[LadyWYT]

41 minutes ago, OreEnthusiast said:

Can already do all of this in the settings aside from removing armor penalties last time I checked. 

Negative. Hunger rate can be adjusted, but cannot be turned off entirely unless one changes to creative or spectator mode. Players can adjust their respawn radius from world spawn, as well as how many "lives" they get for that world, but cannot change their spawn via sleeping in a bed. Tool durability can be increased, but tools can't be set to never break. The only way the player can accomplish that kind of gameplay, is to use mods.

 

41 minutes ago, OreEnthusiast said:

This has no negative impact on the playerbase other than dev time.

I disagree. As @Teh Pizza Lady already noted, dev time that is spent on a minor feature like this is dev time that's not being spent on other features that would be useful to/appreciated by more players. Likewise, seemingly simple changes can sometimes snowball into massive headaches to actually code. Plus I can't say that I'm particularly keen on reading through an influx of more demands for Minecraft-style bed spawn rules or other concessions to make the game easier, nor am I really keen on the game I enjoy getting watered down to a shadow of its former self in order to please a broader audience. If I'm not mistaken, this is one reason many players became disillusioned with Minecraft; the game used to be harder in its earlier days and over time pivoted heavily toward player comfort and convenience. Other games have suffered similar fates. 

[Teh Pizza Lady]

1 hour ago, OreEnthusiast said:

This has no negative impact on the playerbase other than dev time.

We have already had major features DELAYED because the devs got sidetracked with other things. I am not at all interested in going through that heartbreak again.

24 minutes ago, LadyWYT said:

I disagree. As @Teh Pizza Lady already noted, dev time that is spent on a minor feature like this is dev time that's not being spent on other features that would be useful to/appreciated by more players. Likewise, seemingly simple changes can sometimes snowball into massive headaches to actually code. Plus I can't say that I'm particularly keen on reading through an influx of more demands for Minecraft-style bed spawn rules or other concessions to make the game easier, nor am I really keen on the game I enjoy getting watered down to a shadow of its former self in order to please a broader audience. If I'm not mistaken, this is one reason many players became disillusioned with Minecraft; the game used to be harder in its earlier days and over time pivoted heavily toward player comfort and convenience. Other games have suffered similar fates.

I have two criteria for whether a suggestion for the game is a waste of time or not:

1. Is the person making the suggestion coming across as demanding, entitle, pompous, or otherwise carrying an attitude that says they never got their butt whooped into next week for backtalk before?
2. Is the suggestion for such a small set of players that most would have ignored it except the person making the suggestion is now making a fuss when told it's not a good idea?

If either question can be answered with a resounding "YES" then, the idea is not something that should be considered at this time for anything other than a mod from a generous author in my opinion, which I am stating as fact.

Edited June 2 by Teh Pizza Lady

[BurgerDaddy]

One thing I do like about this game mechanic is what I imagine the intent is. To me at least, it seems like it is aimed at making multiplayer more collaborative, as there is a benefit to having one person be a torch bearer while another mines, for example. Maybe I’m just overly optimistic, and a person could definitely say it does not achieve that goal, I’m just… hoping it exists for the reason I would like it to.

 

The execution could be better, that generally does not seem to be argued upon. I just chalk it up to early access and it’s easy enough for me to forgive in an otherwise amazing game.
 

Sort of sidestepping here, but if I view it as an attempt to get players to collaborate more in game, even if the current functionality is less than ideal, it does kind of fit with a theme I see, and to me it also explains some of the other funky things in game that can be rather tedious or annoying.

 

There is a real challenge to making a game that plays well in single player and also as a borderline mmo. Grandfather Minecraft seems to have really focused on being able to do everything yourself, and very easily at that with all the automation and slave labor. There was a time in that game (2012 or so?) when my experience playing it online was much more collaborative, but in recent years all the survival servers are very fractured, each player flys/teleports to their own 20 million acre plot and it feels like I’m just playing single player, but with all the benefits of also having lag. I really don’t get it.

Im hoping this game doesn’t go that route, so for me at least, if I have to chow down some extra digital calories in order to see what I’m doing at night it isn’t really a big deal.

Edited June 2 by BurgerDaddy

[coolAlias]

While I don't think I'd toggle it off myself, I am all for more options, be they vanilla or modded.

If the offhand hunger penalty is indeed coded in a way that makes it difficult to modify or disable via mod, then perhaps some dev time could be spent remedying that, as I know from ye olde days of Minecraft modding that there are lots of reasons and ways one might want to interact with the offhand mechanics.

A vanilla toggle on top of that (so mods can still choose to inflict a hunger penalty if they really want for their own items) shouldn't take more than 15-30 minutes to implement, so while yes it would take some time, which can and does add up, it's not really a huge ask, either.

[Phantom72]

  PITA early game
+ Non-Issue late game
======================
  POINTLESS
----------------------

So early game I find that I constantly equip / unequip the offhand items.

It's just an arbitrary value and the mechanic makes no distinction between carrying a feather or a shield. And as long as people can move with an open inventory and items in the crafting slots the penalty makes even less sense at this point in the development cycle.

I vote for completely removing it until it makes sense.