Why Vintage Story not being popular might not be such a bad thing.

[Thomas J]

On 10/2/2022 at 10:44 AM, AngryRob said:

Minecraft got big because of reddit

No.

[SoloBlood]

I would like the VS team to have a little growth to the team so the game can stabilize when releases come out. Then a dedicated team can handle long term game growth.  Popularity helps.  

[Maelstrom]

I don't see how that comment follows the original post.  Maybe make this post in Suggestions?

[imperialwaltz]

On 10/6/2022 at 12:30 AM, KobaltKookie said:

I agree, and I think that is part of the problem that's preventing the game's playerbase from growing. It is very intimidating to try and play the game the first time. A more in depth tutorial and extra hints I think would definitely go a long way in getting more players into the game.

It feels like so much of the game's balance is completely tilted towards the end of the game rather than the beginning.

I don't think it's an intimidating factor it's more-so just sinking a lot of time into systems that aren't very intuitive and require knowledge of the systems before you can "smooth it".

To put it bluntly; it's not fun

World generation and finding food while trying to understand why there are wolves and bears in the meadows and you have no weapons is just a big mess

[Thorfinn]

But it's not tilted towards end-game. Get to end-game sometime and see how much time and effort it is to make a steel anything. I think it's probably skewed towards copper. By the end of the first month, you probably have 18-20 of your 25 bonus HP. That's significant, as it tripled your HP in Wilderness. You could have a saw, so you even have access to wooden chests, which are are a third again as good as the clay storage vessels which you could have had on day 2, though the clay are by far superior for storing food. TBH, I don't rush the saw. Not enough bang for the buck, especially since each chest now requires 5 nuggets worth of metal parts. A stack of clay storage vessels is not significantly worse than a stack of chests, and a heck of a lot easier to come by. By the second month, your armor and weapons aren't significantly worse than they will be at the end-game. You have your "base(s)" bear-proofed. You have your food supply secured, and maybe even your winter food mostly put away.

The step from iron to steel is mostly irrelevant, not worth the hassle. The step from copper to bronze is only important because bronze lets you iron, and iron age is second only to copper age in terms of advancement, with steel age a very distant 3rd.

I do agree it's a little daunting to start the game and have no idea what you have to do to thrive in this world. Handbook pause was a huge improvement. Used to be trying to figure out why you couldn't make pottery in the firepit or how to make a torch or a basket meant the clock was still running, and you were headed towards starvation, or at least wolf-food while you tried to figure out what's up. I have not checked out the tutorial, so can't comment on that, though I doubt it matches my start priorities, anyway.

[Maelstrom]

I concur with @Thorfinn about game balance.  It takes a TON of effort to get a single steel item - mine iron, refine it to an iron ingot, convert iron ingot to blister steel, refine it to steel ingot THEN you are ready to forge a steel item.  BTW it takes about 4-5 game days to convert 16 iron ingots to blister steel.  Copper item?  run about and find 20 nuggets (or pan for a bit), smelt it in a crucible (just an hour in game), pour into mold and wait a few in game hours.  If you add the extra steps to take a copper ingot and forge that to a copper item (i.e. saw, shears, etc) that only adds a couple more in game hours.  To go from raw copper to finished copper item (even saw/shears) takes less time than than the single step of making blister steel.

I like getting steel as the items have a noticeably higher durability, but that added benefit is not nearly as big a step as going from stone tools to copper.

[Khornet]

On 4/6/2023 at 3:55 AM, Thomas J said:

No.

As someone old enough to have bought Minecraft during its initial alpha - YES. 
Reddit is where Notch moved most of his communications and feedback collection after sticking to some other... sites that shan't be named. It's sad, I know, but the "Reddit phase" is where Minecraft started picking up in popularity, and I say this with a lot of bitterness, because that's also when a lot of stupid stuff started being added to it.

As for the "VS not being popular is good" argument here, I will forever fundamentally disagree with this unambitious and stagnated point of view. This game deserves far more than being stuck in its niche, but it's completely stunted by the lack of visibility on the market. And I say this as someone who actually usually endorses gatekeeping.

[Echoweaver]

The thing I wonder when I read this thread:

Is VS that unpopular? Comparing it to Minecraft in its heyday isn't really fair. That was a generation-defining level of attention. A game doesn't just have to be good for that to happen -- it has to be lucky. The unstable update that was just posted indicates that popularity is growing fast enough that we need updates to multiplayer performance.

VS is clearly growing, and if Maelstrom's stats are correct, it's growing at a nice speed. I found it the viral way, from a friend, and I'm telling friends about it. I'm not terribly concerned with whether it is a huge cultural phenomenon. That usually has some big downsides.

I seem to be missing something about how quoting works, but Maelstrom's remark about VS's sales rate is my only reservation about this business model. If the only way for VS to make money relies on selling new licenses, then eventually it's going to saturate and license sales will plummet. A Patreon helps. That might be all it needs to be self-sustaining.

[dakko]

9 minutes ago, Echoweaver said:

If the only way for VS to make money relies on selling new licenses, then eventually it's going to saturate and license sales will plummet. A Patreon helps. That might be all it needs to be self-sustaining.

They do (or did) have a Patreon. Also the Supporter Add-on is available. Maybe they are no longer mentioning the Patreon, so people are no longer aware it is there? hmm. (edit: it was several years ago, so maybe they no longer feel the need to mention it?)

Edited May 6, 2023 by dakko

[Maelstrom]

On 5/5/2023 at 9:54 AM, Khornet said:

it's completely stunted by the lack of visibility on the market.

That's your assessment.  Seems like the dev team have a different assessment.

 

On 5/6/2023 at 8:15 AM, Echoweaver said:

but Maelstrom's remark about VS's sales rate is my only reservation about this business model. 

My figure was based on the purchases in past 24 hours on the games homepage.  That number obviously fluctuates but usually is around 100 a day (give or take a score or so).  For instance, right now we see this...
 

Quote

Based on that disclosure we can extrapolate the monthly rate to be 2,370 copies.  I will admit I was being very conservative.  I've seen the 24 hour sell rate as high as 130 or so.

Edited May 11, 2023 by Maelstrom

[Khornet]

19 hours ago, Maelstrom said:

That's your assessment.  Seems like the dev team have a different assessment.

My figure was based on the purchases in past 24 hours on the games homepage.  That number obviously fluctuates but usually is around 100 a day (give or take a score or so).  For instance, right now we see this...

Based on that disclosure we can extrapolate the monthly rate to be 2,370 copies.  I will admit I was being very conservative.  I've seen the 24 hour sell rate as high as 130 or so.

This is not just "my assessment". The proof of that is in this thread's name. Most people accept this matter-of-factly.
And it's a sad, but fair assessment, based on the game's popularity and activity on discussion/media platforms different than this forum or the official Discord, which is close to 0; YouTube videos in its category, quality (popularity) and quantity of content creators choosing it as the content creation tool (including YouTube), streaming, game appearing on news articles, etc. To me, personally, this is also gauged by activity on the game's other "official" platforms, like the wiki (which is currently filled with outdated/inaccurate information and dead articles), the game's issue tracker (some of the issues I personally reported from ~1.5 year ago have been untouched completely because they're "medium priority" only).
This is going to be a very spicy comparison, but if you want a more direct example; Hytale (VS' kind of "notorious" rival, since Tyron worked on it around 2015) has 43x the subscribers on YouTube than the VS channel. Their announcement trailer has 60 000 000 views compared to VS' 2020 feature trailer's 278 000 (videos compared were uploaded roughly in the same time period). This doesn't necessarily prove anything concise, but... I've thrown some numbers for perspective out there.

I have no reason to believe the daily sales information on this site other than benefit of the doubt. To me, honestly, it seems bloated/inaccurate, judging how the sales numbers are somewhat too consistent and don't seem to spike suddenly in either direction, and the lack of parallels between discussion activity and new accounts made. STILL, I will believe it, because we have literally no other raw data for sales which might help us gauge the direct financial well-being of VS as a product.
However, would we compare this game in the aforementioned aspect of "visibility on the market" to other indie games of similar development nature throughout the years (allow me to remind you VS "came out" in 2016) like Stardew Valley or Terraria, or even titles like Valheim, Rust, or Project Zomboid, you lose this argument, objectively and completely. 

On 5/6/2023 at 4:15 PM, Echoweaver said:

If the only way for VS to make money relies on selling new licenses, then eventually it's going to saturate and license sales will plummet.

The small dev team makes the game obviously sustainable, but if Anego wants to expand further (nothing recent points in that direction, unfortunately), they do need to look out to branch outside of the current sales model (I could suggest the easiest and most convenient method for that here, but I got a thread locked the last time I discussed that so ). I don't think subscription services are a good idea - you'd only find your core audience supporting you that way, instead of new ones. And it's an easy slippery slope to all kinds of malpractices like exclusive content, early access and whatnot. Though I trust that would be the last problem, because Tyron's a fair developer.

On 5/6/2023 at 4:15 PM, Echoweaver said:

Comparing it to Minecraft in its heyday isn't really fair.

Comparing anything to Minecraft is unfair, but there are fairer comparisons to make with a lot more potential parallels, and I've already made them above.

Also, this game will always be compared to Minecraft for obvious reason, and yeah, I do think it has the potential to mimic its success to a certain extent - as VS is naturally a more hardcore and realistic experience, it's not going to reach out to the casual and children's markets as comfortably as Minecraft did. Minecraft's audience is quite wide though, and there's a lot of holes in it that VS would fit right in - and, in fact, already does.

Edited May 12, 2023 by Khornet

[Echoweaver]

4 hours ago, Khornet said:

The small dev team makes the game obviously sustainable, but if Anego wants to expand further (nothing recent points in that direction, unfortunately), they do need to look out to branch outside of the current sales model (I could suggest the easiest and most convenient method for that here, but I got a thread locked the last time I discussed that so ). I don't think subscription services are a good idea - you'd only find your core audience supporting you that way, instead of new ones. And it's an easy slippery slope to all kinds of malpractices like exclusive content, early access and whatnot. Though I trust that would be the last problem, because Tyron's a fair developer.

 

Huh. Sometimes doing the same thing does get different results. Quoting worked for me this time.

I'm not super-wild about subscription services, but this game (and many others) is releasing continuous updates for free to license holders. If you offer a permanent license for sale with ongoing updates, once sales plateaus, you'll find yourself committed to work for no more income. I'm perfectly fine with charging for game expansions, but the downside to THAT is that you have to make your codebase flexible enough to handle any combination of updates players want to buy. I've modded long-running games that have optional expansions, and the result after a bunch of releases is a HORRIBLE MESS. So, aside from Tyron's principles, I can see why they wouldn't want to do that.

With that in mind, I tend to view Patreons as a decent compromise. They're optional subscription services for those who want a bit more insurance that game development can continue.

Edited May 12, 2023 by Echoweaver

[Thorfinn]

I wouldn't worry about that all that much, @Echoweaver because just here in the US, there are about 4.5 million 14 year-olds, according to a quick search. So what's that 12k or so turning 14 every day? If you reach 0.1% of them, that's 120 each day. And, of course, we know that the game has much wider appeal than just to 14 YO.

I don't know how anyone else found the game. I typed in something like "alternative minecraft" or "best voxel game" (probably both, actually) into the browser, and on the hits there, looked for Let's Plays of each on YouTube. A few episodes of PapaCheddar and Hypnotique AKA Hypi and Asgard something or other and a few others I don't remember, and I was sold. And then I found out it was only $20 and wondered why I spent any time at all pondering it.

Hint to people recording: On your first episode, if you point out it's only $20, it would make fence sitters like me hop. For those who are stream-savvy, it would be great to see more variety out there. Particularly if you are not very good at the game yet. Some of those more advanced streams are downright intimidating. I thought I was reasonably competent, but...

Anyway, I'd wait for one of the devs announcing that funding was falling short before getting too concerned. But so far, based on the release schedule, that must not be the case.

[EDIT]

Incidentally, if there was something that made me hesitate, it was that there were not a whole lot of current Let's Plays. 

Edited May 12, 2023 by Thorfinn

[Hafthohlladung]

On 5/12/2023 at 1:17 PM, Khornet said:

The small dev team makes the game obviously sustainable, but if Anego wants to expand further (nothing recent points in that direction, unfortunately), they do need to look out to branch outside of the current sales model (I could suggest the easiest and most convenient method for that here, but I got a thread locked the last time I discussed that so ).

Yes I think by now we're all well aware of your "easiest and most convenient method", I knew that thread locking would only be a temporary respite.

[Thomas J]

On 5/5/2023 at 10:54 AM, Khornet said:

As someone old enough to have bought Minecraft during its initial alpha - YES. 
Reddit is where Notch moved most of his communications and feedback collection after sticking to some other... sites that shan't be named. It's sad, I know, but the "Reddit phase" is where Minecraft started picking up in popularity, and I say this with a lot of bitterness, because that's also when a lot of stupid stuff started being added to it.

As for the "VS not being popular is good" argument here, I will forever fundamentally disagree with this unambitious and stagnated point of view. This game deserves far more than being stuck in its niche, but it's completely stunted by the lack of visibility on the market. And I say this as someone who actually usually endorses gatekeeping.

Don't be a coward. Notch talked about and advertised minecraft on 4chan (among other sites), because he was a channer. He was a fedora-tipping caricature of a channer that achieved lightning in a bottle while temporarily hiding his power level (which he no longer restrains because he has fuck you money) for profit. Reddit was not responsible for the popularity of Minecraft, it merely appeared there once it had already picked up steam elsewhere. Reddit is the marker of something breaching containment, it rarely builds up anything but memes, grooming gangs and anti-capitalist schemes (some of which are funnny, like wallstreetbets aka "like 4chan found a bloomberg terminal", and some of which are funny in a sad way, like antiwork).

It's none of my concern whether this game is gatekept or not, as there's nothing to be gatekept. "Undesireables" are already here and Tyron handles them reasonably. I don't know the man, but considering his persona I don't think more success would alter his development philosophy very much. Of course, nobody knows unless and until it happens, but the least likely thing is yet another sellout to some big corp. If Tyron was like that he would've stuck with Hytale and all its Tencent CCP money.

Edited May 26, 2023 by Thomas J

[PhotriusPyrelus]

31 minutes ago, Thomas J said:

If Tyron was like that he would've stuck with Hytale and all its Tencent CCP money.

Not to derail the thread, but really?!  I guess I can take that game off my "looking forward to" list...

[Thomas J]

40 minutes ago, PhotriusPyrelus said:

Not to derail the thread, but really?!  I guess I can take that game off my "looking forward to" list...

Sorry to say, but it's true. Do you remember how riot games was an "angel investor" all the way back when Hytale released that viral trailer? Turns out they weren't just an "angel investor", Hytale eventually got outright bought by riot games, which of course is 100% owned by Tencent, which is owned by the CCP. That's why it's been in development hell for so many years. Imagine if you created a spiritual successor to the world-famous game that kickstarted your career, then released a trailer for it that got tens of millions of views and set the entire Internet ablaze with excitement. Would you have decided to sell out BEFORE you released it to the public in an alpha/beta/release form, or hell, sell out at all? It's unfathomable to me. I can hardly imagine the drama that unfolded behind the scenes, let alone the amount of benjamins shifting palms.

Edited May 27, 2023 by Thomas J