Temperature Resistances and Adding Heatstroke / Heat Exhaustion

[jeremy13621362]

Your character shouldn't be only able to take damage from the cold. It would make more sense that you would have to stay cool as well as stay warm. I do not like the idea of wearing just a fur coat and full fur clothes and being impervious to all weather. 

[idiomcritter]

how cool am I?

fully dec'd out in my fur clothing, and snow goggles during the mid day sun thru the dog dazes of summer!  

uh huh thats right, i'm chill

[Maelstrom]

With freezing, there's a remedy.  What would the remedy be for overheating because adding this mechanic has downstream implications that have to be coded.  One such mechanic is a thirst bar in addition to the hunger bar which has been mentioned multiple times in the past year alone.

[Thorfinn]

Right. Would it really add anything if you had to go caving or sit under a tree or go for a quick swim in the heat of the day if you set up base somewhere warmer? Would you get penalized for smithing in the summer? Particularly if you had an enclosed smithy with nowhere for the heat (or smoke) to go? Would that be a selling point if you were describing the game to a friend?

Personally, I'm just not seeing the attraction.

[jeremy13621362]

Maybe having a camelpack or some form of water that you can bring with you. Having clothes that cover your head like bandanas. A thirst bar would be really easy to code from my perspective. A thirst bar would be just a small blue bar over the hunger bar that slowly depletes over time. Make it so that its a world multiplier that you can scale. Have it be affected by the ambient temperature by adding a multiplier to it. Your hunger goes down faster if you're hurt so why is different from that of your thirst going down faster when you run?

 

[Thorfinn]

I get that it might be fairly easy to add another bar. My hesitancy is that I don't see how it adds fun to the game. Until you have whatever it takes to make a wineskin or camelback (and maybe even then), you need to use up a precious inventory slot to carry a gourd or crock or something with water in it.

Why not a scurvy bar if you don't eat enough fruit, or a beri-beri bar if you don't eat enough grain? Or a parasitic infection like giardia if you got the water from a stagnant pond?

Edited April 24, 2024 by Thorfinn

[jeremy13621362]

Those sound like fine ideas. You already get "debuffs" from not eating enough of these food groups by way of less health. Water, on the other hand, is a basic necessity where you could have it be a setting in the world generation. There is already a setting for hunger rate so why not thirst rate? Just keep it simple, you do not necessarily need to have a camel pack but you could bring a jug with you instead.

[Maelstrom]

Well, if we're going to make things more realistic, let's start with carrying capacity.  Currently a seraph can carry over 1,920 cubic meters of dirt, sand, rock, etc. basically making them a walking freight train.  Shouldn't we limit the ability to carry that high fertility soil to just 1 cubic meter for consideration of bulk and weight being realistic?

[Thorfinn]

With a specific gravity of roughly 2.7, a single cubic meter of soil would be somewhere around 2,7 metric tons. A single log would be a bit under a ton. That's a pretty butch seraph.

That doesn't necessarily mean thirst is a bad idea. Just that it needs something more than "realistic" to make it fun. 

[ArtiKs]

3 hours ago, Maelstrom said:

Well, if we're going to make things more realistic, let's start with carrying capacity.  Currently a seraph can carry over 1,920 cubic meters of dirt, sand, rock, etc. basically making them a walking freight train.  Shouldn't we limit the ability to carry that high fertility soil to just 1 cubic meter for consideration of bulk and weight being realistic?

Adding hot and cold drinks to resist for longer the harsh environments that get worse due to the seasons, also means less inventory space when exploring… which makes me wonder if there will ever be anything after leather backpacks. I´ve never made steel at all as it seems pointless, but I swear I could delve into the steelmaking process if it means that more valuable inventory slots are the reward.

[ArtiKs]

@Maelstrom "What would the remedy be for overheating because adding this mechanic has downstream implications that must be coded?"  
Technically speaking freezing is a bar; It’s just not visible until the temperature drops to display visual cues. I think that there are even mods that make it visible. The remedy could be as simple as wearing the appropriate clothes. We have winter ones, so how about loose-fitting, lightweight clothes made of breathable materials, such as cotton or linen? If you ask me, I think those could fit the aesthetic of the game. There are some unobtainable sets that could be tweaked and useful, like the survivor set or the peasant set.

"One such mechanic is a thirst bar in addition to the hunger bar which has been mentioned multiple times in the past year alone."
After a lot of thought, I ended up agreeing with you both, Maelstrom and Thorfinn… though I would say that if poultices are to health-bars what foods are to hunger-bars, what would drinks even be needed for besides roleplay? 
I’ve come to the realization that most food is at room temperature or below when it rests in a cellar. The whole objective revolving food is preservation, but beverages are absorbed faster (just take a sip of any cider in-game and you’ll see…), the player could get short effects related to stuff that food alone can’t reach like temperature adjustments, so a thirst bar isn’t needed at all. It’s just "food" that targets different stats in the default “C” display.

[ArtiKs]

@Thorfinn Would it really add anything if you had to go caving or sit under a tree or going for a quick swim in the heat of the day if you set up base somewhere warmer?
I think that since the game took some inspiration from Don’t Starve Together, people expect the seasons other than winter to have something unique like they are in that game. Caving, switching clothes, head gear and diving are literally the same as wearing fur clothes and setting up campfires every now and again when freezing. I’d argue this gives tailors a purpose beyond aesthetic and roleplay.

Would you get penalized for smithing in the summer?
Freezing and hunger kill the player so slowly that you have time to perform several actions. The penalty is also specific as it would only happen during summer afternoons when the heat is at its peak or maybe during sandstorms if you live in a desert. If smithing sessions are kept short, overheating should not be an issue. Just like the cold is a threat, the heat should be one too, but only when extremes are met. Irl blacksmithing is a seasonal job, but this is a game where the player needs to manipulate metals often. Cold drinks plus certain clothes should help isolate the seraph from the heat, like wearing the blacksmith apron and maybe gloves as leveled-up thongs. Maybe there is no immediate “penalty” if the smithing place isn’t recognized as a room and counts as an open space with a roof? Idk.

Particularly if you had an enclosed smithy with nowhere for the heat (or smoke) to go? Personally, I'm just not seeing the attraction.
Smoke and asphyxia are a totally different rabbit hole… and beyond smithing, it would affect mining the most. If the game gets to that level of realism I would not see the attraction either.

[Maelstrom]

13 hours ago, ArtiKs said:

The remedy could be as simple as wearing the appropriate clothes. We have winter ones, so how about loose-fitting, lightweight clothes made of breathable materials, such as cotton or linen?

Those warm weather clothes already exist in the form of the clothes on your back after choosing a class.

[Thorfinn]

@ArtiKs I agree completely that thirst and heat exhaustion and all similar effects are similar to other game aspects, and even that they could be relatively easy to implement. I just have yet to hear anyone complete the sentence, "This would  make the game more fun because..."

Would the game be more fun with a Stardew Valley Stamina bar, or My Time at Portia Sprint bar? Maybe, but I'd rather hear the argument for them rather than simply, "Other games have them" or "It would be easy to implement" or "Its more realistic." Butchering is abstracted to a completely unrealistic, absurd level. Realistically it should take hours, and should generate more than 1 leg bone. But I'm not convinced that would make it more fun. Berries only produce a couple weeks per year, blackberries a week or so later than raspberries around here, but would that make the game more enjoyable?

When you look at the complaints and rage quits, very rarely is it because the game is too easy.

Edited April 25, 2024 by Thorfinn

[Asreal]

On 4/25/2024 at 7:33 AM, Thorfinn said:

I just have yet to hear anyone complete the sentence, "This would  make the game more fun because..."

well, here I am!
Why would adding a heat mechanic make the game more fun?
lets take a look at the existing cold mechanic, as heat would work similarly to this but in tropical climates:
Winter in Vintage story offers a challenge that players have to prepare for, stock up food, get warm clothes, build a proper shelter, gather firewood etc.
so why would it not be the same for heat? if you live in a more temperate climate, cold will be your main concern, but if you are in the tropics, summer could be like the winter you have to prepare for, I presume there would be a sweet spot between cold and warm regions where the temperature is comfortable year round, so if players don't want to deal with this challenge they can seek out the goldilocks zone of not too hot, not too cold or disable overheating in settings

so what specific challenges could heat offer?
well first lets dismiss the idea of thirst, this isn't needed to make heatstroke go away. but we can add a cooling effect to drinking fruit and juices, giving more of an incentive to create drinks in warmer climates to cool down. The clothing system would work the same for warmer climates, except we can add it to the existing clothes: a hat may offer a buffer of +1C in cold regions, and -1C in hotter regions, for example. some clothes like winter coats will have a negative effect in warmer climates resulting in faster overheating. animals will be scarcer and food spoils faster due to the heat (which may already be implemented), being in direct sun will ofc make you heat up faster so you have to be properly prepared for the tropic summers, same as preparing for the temperate winters, but these climates will be far enough apart that you do not have to battle a hot summer immediately after a cold winter.

and why would it be fun?
A lot of the game mechanics of vintage story offer the player a sense of accomplishment when they learn how to slowly master different skills and progress throughout the game, overcoming more of the game's challenges. a player who properly prepares for the winter will be rewarded with not having to worry about the cold or food, and can focus on other aspects of the game like building up their base and unlocking new metals, or other stuff. If the player does not prepare properly they are challenged with the harsh winter temperatures, risk starving and hypothermia, and will have a hard time. This player will learn that they do not want to be caught out in the cold and put more incentive into making winters more survivable.

Now lets apply the same logic to heat: one season a year, a player in warm climates is faced with harsh living, and will need to properly prepare: get proper clothes, build a sealed shelter that can insulate against the heat, store food, minimize time spent outside, you are met with the harsh conditions of surviving in unbearable heat but once properly mastered the heat no longer poses as big a threat: making drinks to cool down, staying out of direct sun, with proper planning and preparation you can survive the heat of summer same as you would the cold of winter. I do not think this would be an annoying game mechanic, it requires the player to think, plan, execute, learn and master the elements. It adds the realism of people wearing proper clothing for their climate, and again will be fully customizable in config if people do not wish to engage with the heat. another consideration would be heat sources: campfires, smithing, and other heat intensive processes may want to be done outdoors instead to allow the heat to dissipate. this encourages different types of building styles depending on whether you live in cold or warm regions: cold regions are more indoors, enclosed, trap the heat, while warm regions may have more open buildings so heat can escape. all in all, living in warm climates will present it's own unique challenges, as does living in colder regions and I think having a heat mechanic will further enhance the experience and offer more unique gameplay depending on which region the player chooses to setup in.

I also do not think the player should have to battle both summer heat and winter cold, you will be presented with either one challenge or the other depending on where your base is, and there will ofc be some sort of goldilocks zone between these 2 extremes where summers and winters are both very mild and not really a concern, or the player may choose a nomadic lifestyle and travel between north and south to avoid the cold and heat altogether.

I personally would love to see a heat mechanic, but these are just my thoughts, I am not a modder and have little coding experience, so I couldn't implement such an idea, but if I could I think it would be worth it.

[Krougal]

While I admit it did surprise me that there are only cold issues to deal with but not heat, but as others have said, there is a lot less that one can do to mitigate the heat and it doesn't add fun.

As far as what's after the leather backpack, in 1.20 is the sturdy leather backpack, 8 slots. Also the sturdy mining pack.

[Echo Weaver]

I agree with those who aren't wild about a thirst bar.

Heat exhaustion has the same basic cause as hypothermia, though -- raising the core temperature higher than the body's tolerances. Summer in most climates isn't going to get that hot. or at least not for very many days.

Drinking water and swimming could reduce a too-high core temperature. Wearing warm clothes could contribute to the increase of body temp in hot weather. Wearing craftable light clothing could contribute to lowering core temp.

That could also make it worthwhile to carry around a clay water jug similar to the watering can, but which the user drinks out of. Or, as @Asreal said, fruit juices, which would presumably add saturation and cooling.

I personally find this idea fun in the same way that cold weather is fun. It means that running to the tropics doesn't get out of some temperature-based mechanics. Heat exhaustion would primarily be an issue in places with hot enough climates that they have a negligible winter.

[Thorfinn]

Welcome to the forums, @Asreal!

Personally, I don't really care about the heat thing anyway. Warm weather in-game and IRL is just not interesting to me. Give me boreal forest any day of the week.

@AsrealI'm guessing you must be a decided minority or a mod like that would already exist. But I would not be surprised that it finds it into the base game by release date anyway.

BTW, I used to worry about the cold, too, but it turns out it's not a big deal. Make winter clothes if you absolutely swimming in fat, but it's not all that important. Spelunking is enough to warm you up anywhere but arctic regions, and sometimes even then. There's plenty to burn anywhere other than arctic -- flowers, bushes, trees, grass, etc. And in the arctic, there is plenty of aged wood in the caves. Food isn't an issue, either. So long as you are doing the nomad thing in unexplored territory (and why would you do the nomad thing in explored territory?) there's plenty of food.

[Maelstrom]

21 hours ago, Asreal said:

well first lets dismiss the idea of thirst, this isn't needed to make heatstroke go away.

There are two ways animals (presumably seraphs are the same) deal with heat. 

1. Go to places that aren't hot (take a swim or go to someplace where the air is not hot).
2. Drink fluids, primarily water to not get heat stroke.

Option 2 requires a thirst mechanic to be implemented.  If not, the hunger mechanic would have to be increased dramatically to simulate thirst, but then eating would work in place of fluids.

It's just this simple - if you want heat mechanic you must have a thirst mechanic.

[Asreal]

16 hours ago, Maelstrom said:

There are two ways animals (presumably seraphs are the same) deal with heat. 

1. Go to places that aren't hot (take a swim or go to someplace where the air is not hot).
2. Drink fluids, primarily water to not get heat stroke.

Option 2 requires a thirst mechanic to be implemented.  If not, the hunger mechanic would have to be increased dramatically to simulate thirst, but then eating would work in place of fluids.

well, lets look at it this way: I believe you can still eat when your hunger bar is full,
so lets say we add thirst? but not in the same way you are thinking. the thirst bar will be hidden from the player and determine how quickly they heat up, drink some water and the bar fills, and you will start cooling down some, as the thirst bar decreases you start to warm up again, drink more water! if the thirst bar is empty, you will warm up faster in hot climates, but it will not affect you otherwise, thus avoiding it being an extra bar to satiate, but just a way of cooling down for a time. I'm not sure how or if the hidden thirst bar would affect players in cold climates, but it really doesn't need to.

to emphasize a good point brought up by Echo Weaver above, a water jug could be carried, that would not affect saturation but purely thirst which as I'm proposing, thirst will only affect how quick you heat up in warm regions and nothing else, you will not have to manage your thirst bar like hunger, and it won't even have to be visible to the player, they will know when they need to drink by how hot they are getting
 

On 11/4/2024 at 5:17 PM, Thorfinn said:

Welcome to the forums, @Asreal!

Personally, I don't really care about the heat thing anyway. Warm weather in-game and IRL is just not interesting to me. Give me boreal forest any day of the week.

@AsrealI'm guessing you must be a decided minority or a mod like that would already exist. But I would not be surprised that it finds it into the base game by release date anyway.

Thanks!
I'd be surprised if I am in the minority, winter exists and (I think) people find that to be a fun mechanic, why would people not also want heat? it would be like winter but for deserts

I haven't played in warmer climates, but I do think some sort of preparation for the seasons would add more to the game and not be annoying, you have to prepare for winter, so why not prepare for summer in hot regions?

[Maelstrom]

6 hours ago, Asreal said:

well, lets look at it this way: I believe you can still eat when your hunger bar is full,
so lets say we add thirst? but not in the same way you are thinking. the thirst bar will be hidden from the player and determine how quickly they heat up...

Invisible thirst bar, visible thirst bar.  Either way a thirst bar exists.

About the only thing I can think to make heat work is basically the same as cold.  Too much activity (or time under the sun) and/or heavy clothing in a hot climate causes heat to build up.  fluid consumption would be part of the hunger bar, but reducing the heat build up would take being in an area of significantly lower air temp, such as a cave or submerged in water.  Just like being next to a fire takes time to heat up being in a cooler environment would take time to cool down.

I could go for a mechanic like that.  A thirst bar is the lazy way out and only adds an unfun burden to playing.  Let's prevent this from happening...
 

 

[Thorfinn]

8 hours ago, Asreal said:

I'd be surprised if I am in the minority,

I was just basing it on downloads of the thirst-type mods. In economics, that's called a "revealed preference".

@xXx_Ape_xXx's Grapes mod is closing in fast on the more popular of the thirst mods, and it's only been up a bit over a week.

Edited November 6, 2024 by Thorfinn

[Thorfinn]

4 hours ago, Maelstrom said:

Just like being next to a fire takes time to heat up

True, but setting yourself on fire warms you up tout de suite...

[LadyWYT]

What if instead of a thirst bar, overheating reduced rate of healing/health from healing items? That way you could still wear a full fur parka set in the tropics/very hot weather, but it's not going to be particularly ideal for staying alive if you expect to be getting into trouble. At the same time, it's not so intrusive to the player that it's going to become an annoying chore to put up with, instead of something fun and engaging.

You could also probably apply a small movement speed penalty too(or instead of the healing penalty), given that being too hot tends to sap one's desire to do much of anything. It still accomplishes the same thing, in that the player isn't punished too harshly if they insist on wearing their finest furs while it's scorching hot. However, it's not the best idea, especially with the addition of new, faster mobs, if you expect to be good at staying alive.

In any case, it's a challenge that's fairly easy to remedy--just wear lighter clothing/equipment, or go to a cooler location. One could also go for a swim or drink a beverage in order to temporarily halt the adverse effects of wearing heavy attire in hot weather; those options would also give the player incentive to utilize the fruit press/brewing mechanics and give more purpose to the "wet" status effects on the player(aside from just making it easier to freeze to death).

[Asreal]

On 11/6/2024 at 7:08 AM, Maelstrom said:

Invisible thirst bar, visible thirst bar.  Either way a thirst bar exists.

About the only thing I can think to make heat work is basically the same as cold.  Too much activity (or time under the sun) and/or heavy clothing in a hot climate causes heat to build up.  fluid consumption would be part of the hunger bar, but reducing the heat build up would take being in an area of significantly lower air temp, such as a cave or submerged in water.  Just like being next to a fire takes time to heat up being in a cooler environment would take time to cool down.

I'd be fine with that too, but then you just answered your own question on whether thirst should be added, better than I did. so we know thirst isn't needed now, and I'd be fine with your implementation of it. still I think drinking water or something would be possible with a full hunger bar to cool you down, and the 'thirst' meter I mentioned before is more like a cooling meter from your drink, spread out over a period of time. which still doesn't have to be visible to the player, and yeah it's technically another meter, whether hidden or not, but they'll know if they are overheating and don't necessarily have to drink to cool down

and to LadyWYTs point, I think personally hyperthermia should be just as punishing as hypothermia: a gradual heating up and then slow damage over time, but that's just my preference. There is currently lots of time for the player to react to hypothermia and warm up, even well before they start taking damage, so hyperthermia can operate the same way. I just don't want people wearing their finest furs in the desert lol, unless they plan on swimming or drinking or hiding from the sun a lot

Edited November 8, 2024 by Asreal