Why Elk over horses as primary rideables?

[BebRav3]

I may be msiunderstanding, but as far as i can tell, the devs are working on making thr elk the primary rideable creature with horses as a lesser secondary. Why are the devs making this decision?

 

Elk do not have a body structure suited to carrying things. Look at elk leg joints and horse leg joints, its obvious which animal has stronger legs. Afaik, the only time they have been somewhat domesticated is for sled driving, but they have never been ridden. Elk arent "built" to carry on their back like horses. 

 

2nd issue is the massive antlers. Imagine riding an elk, the elk turns its head, and you get skewered. Not very good thing to be worried abt during combat.

 

Horses are far more practical for what i can tell the devs want. If the devs think that storage on a horse would look weird, then carriages can be used.

 

But a more interesting alternative are more exotic creatures. Elephants, camels, bull, water buffalo are more exotic creatures that are *regularly(kinda but still uncommon) used as mounts. Other creatures can be used as work animals too. 

 

Tldr: elk have weak knees and sharp horns pointed right at the rider. Why are elk the planned primary rideable?

[LadyWYT]

I would assume it's mostly due to the elk already being implemented in the game. It's probably a bit easier to work out the code for mounts with a creature that already exists than it is to add an entirely new animal to the game. Once the mount coding is in place, then the framework is streamlined for animals like horses and camels.

I'm also assuming that horses will be coming in the update as well, given the horse is a staple of transportation. Of course, they may already have horses coded, but the models may not be finished enough to use in a spotlight video.

[BebRav3]

More specifically, the goal is for Elks (and yes, also Horses, albeit to a smaller capacity) to become something akin to a mobile base, with some amounts of storage and basic survival necessities.

 

That line from the update is my worry. Why are horses going to have a smaller capacity....

Edited May 12 by BebRav3

[LadyWYT]

2 hours ago, BebRav3 said:

That line from the update is my worry. Why are horses going to have a smaller capacity....

Could just be in the literal sense; maybe horses won't be able to carry as much/have as many "upgrades", but might be faster than elks. Or elks might be much better on rough terrain than horses are, which would encourage players to use elks more(unless they sink in the time and resources to build roads everywhere). The update is still a ways away so a lot could change--we'll have a better idea closer to the release.

It could also just be a story thing to help separate Vintage Story from the real world, similar to how the player isn't actually a human according to the lore. Outside of the temporal stuff and drifters/mechanicals, Vintage Story feels like a real world survival simulator. Which isn't a bad thing--there's even a game mode for that--but it also doesn't hurt to tweak a few things in order to tell a good story.

As much as I like horses and look forward to their addition, it's also refreshing to see a different kind of creature available as a mount choice.

[ArgentLuna]

Why not, horses are so damn over done and in a game with other creatures use them. I had expected rams to be the mounts so there would be a reason to keep high gen rams. Honestly I'm disappointed that they are even adding the horse.

Edited May 13 by ArgentLuna

[Silent Shadow]

The developers watched Princess Mononoke and thought it would be rad to ride an Elk (though Yakul is probably a large deer).

More seriously, they probably wanted a mount that could ascend 2 or 3 blocks without people thinking it looks too strange (so your mount isn't limited to small areas due to 2 or 3 block high slopes). Outside of Skyrim, horses are not known for their climbing abilities, but elk manage a bit better.

There is also the northern "Sámi" people in the lore that herded reindeer, so maybe they had a breed of elk they rode around.

Edited May 13 by Silent Shadow

[HOST]

i ''think'' that The developers chose ELK for riding to creatively enhance the gaming experience, showcasing the unique possibilities that only a game can offer. This choice emphasizes the imaginative freedom that video games provide, allowing players to explore and interact with a world where the conventional rules do not apply

Edited May 13 by HOST

[Thorfinn]

"Why 'Pinto'?"

[Belch] "Why not?"

[Chuckerton]

Im on team horse. 

14 hours ago, ArgentLuna said:

Why not, horses are so damn over done and in a game with other creatures use them. I had expected rams to be the mounts so there would be a reason to keep high gen rams. Honestly I'm disappointed that they are even adding the horse.

Horses are the expected travel/carry/pack mount because they have been that for basically ever. We have made horseshoes, wagons, saddles and bags, etc, to make our horses more useful. Im not really sure what you mean by horses are over done, theyre just the default. Lets say we have a small domesticated animal thats good at killing mice and rats and is soft and purrs i dont think "wow housecats are really over done" i just think thats what that animal is and what it does. When i hear animals people ride, horse is literally #1 on the list. 
 

That being said, it was said before in this discussion, its probably just that they already had elk in the game so that was the first creature they decided to write the code for rather than add horses then code in animal riding. I would imagine when fully implemented horses are going to be easier to tame and more common than elk. 

12 hours ago, HOST said:

i ''think'' that The developers chose ELK for riding to creatively enhance the gaming experience, showcasing the unique possibilities that only a game can offer. This choice emphasizes the imaginative freedom that video games provide, allowing players to explore and interact with a world where the conventional rules do not apply

And i agree with this, i think elk riding is cool. That being said, i think in a game that is usually very realistic and has lots of attention to detail, having elk be the first choice for riding animals is weird. I think that elk being the main mount would fit in better if the game was less realistic, or maybe if the elk were magical in some visually represented way, or if the entire map were colder/tundra where horses could not really survive for long. Conventional rules apply for 70-85% of this game, so i expect things to mostly line up with reality, unless its otherwise obvious like the temporal stuff. That, or elk should be changed to be more dragging mounts that you can ride rather than the mobile base thing the devs described. As mentioned in OP, elk IRL usually drag sleds but we ride on top of horses and place things in bags that are on the horses. If elk had a different job for the player compared to horses id have no issues with them. 

[Grummsh]

But the game is a game? Thats not earth, were not humans ingame therese whole lore etc and its a sort of fantasy world. Its all subjective i understand but in the end the devs are making the game they want to make - sure we can add feedback but really i cant undetrstand some arguments ppl give in these suggestion topics. Horse is horse its cool and all but in a fantasy setting its just boring. Elk is cool for starters and from what i think and suspect in the end there will be plenty other (maybe even otherwordly) mounts to choose from. This is kinda like early access independent project - it takes time but they can do whatever they want in the end as there is no culprit. I'll just happilly wait and see whats more in store

P.S. Im not agaist suggestions or these treads just speaking my mind up no hard feeling towards anyone

[ArgentLuna]

11 hours ago, Chuckerton said:

Im on team horse. 

Horses are the expected travel/carry/pack mount because they have been that for basically ever. We have made horseshoes, wagons, saddles and bags, etc, to make our horses more useful. Im not really sure what you mean by horses are over done, theyre just the default. Lets say we have a small domesticated animal thats good at killing mice and rats and is soft and purrs i dont think "wow housecats are really over done" i just think thats what that animal is and what it does. When i hear animals people ride, horse is literally #1 on the list.

And here we are in a Game that till now hasn't had them but has other large quadrupeds and is a FANTASY game with no bearing on what "real life" did/ has done. Game also doesn't need cats either, certainly of the domesticated feline types, there is a plethora of interesting animals to put in a game outside of the "typical" includes and since its a Fictional world they can have them be acting non "normal ~ ie the wolves/ bears being more aggressive than what they may be in "real life", Elk being ridden etc.

Id love to see Megafauna used for somethings even if just atmospheric wildlife with no "use" to to the player

[LadyWYT]

On 5/13/2024 at 9:30 PM, Chuckerton said:

That, or elk should be changed to be more dragging mounts that you can ride rather than the mobile base thing the devs described. As mentioned in OP, elk IRL usually drag sleds but we ride on top of horses and place things in bags that are on the horses. If elk had a different job for the player compared to horses id have no issues with them.

Oh, I like the sled idea. Plus there could also be dog sleds too if/when wolves can be tamed. As for the elk, I think they will have a different function from the horse. I would expect horses to be a good all-purpose mount, maybe easy to find and tame but maybe have issues in steep or brushy terrain. Elk could be better in harsh terrain, maybe not need to be fed as much, but be harder to find and tame.

In any case, I'm happy with multiple options. I like creature collecting and letting them have different strengths and weaknesses makes them even cooler. It's a similar vein to how the game handles armor--steel plate is currently the best in regard to overall stats, but it may not be the best choice for every scenario. One thing I do hope though--if the elk is indeed going to be the main mount of choice, I hope they're a little easier to find. I have yet to see one in-game and while I don't mind scouring the world for stuff I feel that the "main" mount should be relatively easy to find and tame. The stronger, more niche mounts should be the ones that are harder to get.

[Chuckerton]

On 5/14/2024 at 9:12 AM, ArgentLuna said:

And here we are in a Game that till now hasn't had them but has other large quadrupeds and is a FANTASY game with no bearing on what "real life" did/ has done. Game also doesn't need cats either, certainly of the domesticated feline types, there is a plethora of interesting animals to put in a game outside of the "typical" includes and since its a Fictional world they can have them be acting non "normal ~ ie the wolves/ bears being more aggressive than what they may be in "real life", Elk being ridden etc.

Id love to see Megafauna used for somethings even if just atmospheric wildlife with no "use" to to the player

Dont get me wrong, id love to see fantasy creatures too, but id like to see normal stuff as well and more commonly, that way the fantasy stuff stands out even more. If everything is special, nothing is. 

Also, i disagree with the idea that this is a super heavy fantasy game with no bearing to real life. This game is absolutely trying to be pretty realistic with fantasy elements. Id almost say low-fantasy as in some magical elements but mostly realistic. If we compare to... other block games, its obvious this game is trying to be realistic. Biomes generate realistically depending on climate, soil has fertility that crops deplete, pests like hares eat crops, seasons change, wind blows and turns windmills, driving shafts and gears with realistic gear ratios. Most things in this game are quite realistic or at least realistic but gamified a little for the sake of, well, gameplay (like the aggression of creatures example you mentioned). So yes, its a fictional world, but with rules that are similar to reality in many aspects. Its not that i dont think elk cant be ridden, i just dont think they should be better than horses, or being ridden should not be their main job.

12 hours ago, LadyWYT said:

Oh, I like the sled idea. Plus there could also be dog sleds too if/when wolves can be tamed. As for the elk, I think they will have a different function from the horse. I would expect horses to be a good all-purpose mount, maybe easy to find and tame but maybe have issues in steep or brushy terrain. Elk could be better in harsh terrain, maybe not need to be fed as much, but be harder to find and tame.

In any case, I'm happy with multiple options. I like creature collecting and letting them have different strengths and weaknesses makes them even cooler. It's a similar vein to how the game handles armor--steel plate is currently the best in regard to overall stats, but it may not be the best choice for every scenario. One thing I do hope though--if the elk is indeed going to be the main mount of choice, I hope they're a little easier to find. I have yet to see one in-game and while I don't mind scouring the world for stuff I feel that the "main" mount should be relatively easy to find and tame. The stronger, more niche mounts should be the ones that are harder to get.

Basically all of this ^

except i dont want elk to be the main mount, unless the region you live in is very cold and they are the ONLY mount available. 

[Brandybuck]

Complaining about horses being too mundane for the game, yet no complaints about the game having chickens, or onions, or copper, or all the other things from Earth. I think someone must have been kicked by a horse as a child.

[ArgentLuna]

6 hours ago, Brandybuck said:

Complaining about horses being too mundane for the game, yet no complaints about the game having chickens, or onions, or copper, or all the other things from Earth. I think someone must have been kicked by a horse as a child.

Because equine oversaturation is thing ~ game where you get a mount its highly likely to be a horse (Big props to Final Fantasy for having Bipedal birds be the default) Its also never the more interesting horses ~ ie the Draught or ponies just the bog standard "horse" of racing or show jump size and look

 

12 hours ago, Chuckerton said:

Dont get me wrong, id love to see fantasy creatures too, but id like to see normal stuff as well and more commonly, that way the fantasy stuff stands out even more. If everything is special, nothing is. 

Fantasy is the Drifters and such, everything else has a real analogue.

[Nisaba]

I wouldn't mind a new overland boss battle that gets you the very best mount

 

In all seriousness though, where I'm from, Oregon, we have a subspecies of elk called Roosevelt's Wapiti (Cervus canadensis roosevelti) that can definitely grow big enough to carry a man. The unrealistic part would be capturing one, at least if the AI had a better sense of how to pathfind the terrain. The game would have to maybe add making blowguns from bamboo stalks and poison darts from bad mushrooms so you could knock one out, and then maybe a way to rope prone creatures and drag them somewhere.

Edited May 16 by Nisaba

[Chuckerton]

On 5/15/2024 at 11:11 PM, ArgentLuna said:

Because equine oversaturation is thing ~ game where you get a mount its highly likely to be a horse (Big props to Final Fantasy for having Bipedal birds be the default) Its also never the more interesting horses ~ ie the Draught or ponies just the bog standard "horse" of racing or show jump size and look

I get what youre saying, but the difference between this game and final fantasy is that in FF, way less stuff is normal. The only one ive played is 15 so maybe things are different in the others, but this is a game where you enter fights by teleporting to your sword after throwing it, theres a giant mountain turtle, a giant water dragon serpent thing, knight looking enemies but some of them have guns and also they have entire robot tank things, and so much more strange things. Bipedal birds as mounts doesnt really stand out in that game because nothing is normal. Mounts that arent real world mounts are going to stand out and break immersion in vintage story. 

Also consider maybe not everyone wants a high-fantasy game. I personally would rather vintage story continue making things very realistic because i like to be immersed, and it makes the drifters and rust world stuff stand out way more, its way creepier when its the ONLY fantasy thing in the game. Its completely alien compared to the rest of the real world. 

[LadyWYT]

3 hours ago, Chuckerton said:

Also consider maybe not everyone wants a high-fantasy game. I personally would rather vintage story continue making things very realistic because i like to be immersed, and it makes the drifters and rust world stuff stand out way more, its way creepier when its the ONLY fantasy thing in the game. Its completely alien compared to the rest of the real world. 

I do like my fantasy stuff, but one of the refreshing details of Vintage Story is that the game is primarily grounded in realism with the fantasy stuff as a garnish. The fantasy is explained just enough to get the player immersed in the world's lore, but isn't saturating everything to the point that it starts producing too many contradictions and thus shattering the player's immersion.

As for the realism factor, it's done tastefully enough so that the game provides a good challenge for players, while still being fun. One example--torches extinguish if you dunk them in water and rain will put out fires that aren't under some kind of cover. At the same time, you can hold lanterns, candles, and oil lamps under water and they still work perfectly fine. Despite the latter not being particularly realistic, it gives the player a way to explore underwater for ores and things, and is thus more fun(despite there not being much to see under there currently).

I think the important key in balancing fun and realism is whether or not the end result is plausible. Having a pair of wings you can wear and fly around like a bird may be fun, but isn't very realistic. Likewise, having no flight at all might be realistic but not the most fun if you want more travel options. The glider covers both areas in that its flight characteristics are limited, but it offers a fun travel option for players that want it. Could it realistically work in real life the way it does in game? Maybe, provided you built it with light enough materials, but it would likely be more underwhelming if it were 100% realistic. Is the way it's implemented plausible though? Absolutely, and I view the elk/horse debate in much the same fashion. It may not be 100% realistic, but it sounds both plausible and fun.

On 5/16/2024 at 6:42 AM, Nisaba said:

The game would have to maybe add making blowguns from bamboo stalks and poison darts from bad mushrooms so you could knock one out, and then maybe a way to rope prone creatures and drag them somewhere.

This would be a really cool way to relocate wild animals, without having to domesticate them first or getting them to chase you. It would also be a cool hunting option for the tropical regions. If they make frogs actual entities that can be caught like butterflies, you could catch dart frogs to poison your darts and arrows with too.