Fruit Trees vs Berry Bushes

[LuisEdGm]

What is the point (other than aesthetic) of working so hard for fruit trees when berries have the same satisfaction rating (other than cranberry) and are SO MUCH easier to gather in a nice garden?

[Maelstrom]

Why bother with fruit trees?  Aesthetics.  Personal preference.  Different variety of fruit/alcohol.  Probably a host of other reasons others could provide.   

If'n you don't want to go through the trouble of gathering fruit tree clippings, planting and etc. etc.  Then don't.  While I have gathered a great many fruit clippings across 2 or 3 worlds, I have yet to plant a single one.  No worries.  This game typically provides multiple paths to get what you need.

[Streetwind]

Fruit from trees also lasts much longer in storage.

[Maelstrom]

Good to know.  I was not aware of that.

[Thorfinn]

Welcome to the forums, @LuisEdGm!

I don't think they are worth the hassle, either. I gave them the old college try when they first came out, and planted a decent-sized grove. Only one clipping survived. And it was going to take until late summer or fall of year 2 to get anything from it, don't remember exactly. But none of my berry bush transplants failed, and they all bore fruit that first year.

Either fruit trees have to become a lot better or berry bushes a lot worse.

[EDIT]

I still notice them when out exploring, and have that moment where I think I should harvest some cuttings, but it passes. I'd like to like them. I just don't.

Edited November 11, 2024 by Thorfinn

[LadyWYT]

3 hours ago, Maelstrom said:

Why bother with fruit trees?  Aesthetics.  Personal preference.  Different variety of fruit/alcohol.  Probably a host of other reasons others could provide.   

If'n you don't want to go through the trouble of gathering fruit tree clippings, planting and etc. etc.  Then don't.  While I have gathered a great many fruit clippings across 2 or 3 worlds, I have yet to plant a single one.  No worries.  This game typically provides multiple paths to get what you need.

 

2 hours ago, Streetwind said:

Fruit from trees also lasts much longer in storage.

This all sums it up nicely; also, welcome to the forums! The only thing that I would add here, as to why players might want to invest in fruit trees from a practical standpoint, when berry bushes technically have a higher production rate--aside from having a longer shelf life, fruit trees produce very large crops in a relatively small space once established, and to my knowledge aren't the target of hungry wildlife(as of writing this, anyway).

[Streetwind]

2 hours ago, Thorfinn said:

Either fruit trees have to become a lot better or berry bushes a lot worse.

There actually were Tyron-musings on making the bushes only bear fruit once per year.

But those are shelved musings for the time being, given that berry bushes are such a major component of the earlygame. That's not a change he'll chuck in on the side. And who knows how priorities might change in the future.

 

Edited November 11, 2024 by Streetwind

[LadyWYT]

26 minutes ago, Streetwind said:

There actually were Tyron-musings on making the bushes only bear fruit once per year.

That might be an interesting change, in terms of survival challenge, if berry bushes played by the same general rules as fruit trees and only had fruit in-season. Though it's probably not a change I would expect to see without more forage options available.

[Thorfinn]

Interesting. Wild game does not replenish fast enough to count on. Neither do fish. You would almost be forced into a nomadic start until the first of your crops came in. Which would work so long as seasons are carefully planned. Cranberries are a fall crop, currants are mid-summer, and around here, blueberries show up sometime late June, early July, so berries in the game are right out for May starts. Temperate, anyway. Obviously all your grains are fall. Spring? Lambsquarters? Plantain? Dandelion? Lettuce is pretty fast, maybe late spring. Pine bark could be anytime, but that means people would have to scramble for pine forests. Nuts, if you drastically increased the drops. Grubs, worms, squirrel, etc.?

Not sure. There would probably have to be a lot more biodiversity. 

Edited November 12, 2024 by Thorfinn

[Bumber]

7 hours ago, Streetwind said:

Fruit from trees also lasts much longer in storage.

Apples and some others do, at least.

IIRC, the tropical ones (lychees, pomegranates?) aren't great in that department. I think even peaches aren't good?

Edited November 12, 2024 by Bumber

[LuisEdGm]

Thanks for the warm welcome, lasting longer in the storage is nice, I will search for more clippings then.

[Krougal]

On 11/11/2024 at 7:08 PM, Thorfinn said:

Pine bark could be anytime, but that means people would have to scramble for pine forests.

Uhhhhh....

[Thorfinn]

 

[Maelstrom]

Grape Nuts.  I ate that once.  ONCE, because I thought I was eating gravel!

[Krosis]

So based in my experience, limited to apple, pear and cherry trees:

 

Fruit trees pros:

Very big harvest for each tree. A single one can keep your fruit bar up a whole year.

Very good spoil time. With a decent cellar it last over a year, similar to vegetables.

Can be propagated.

Olive trees produce olives, witch provide vegetable nutrition without farming.

 

Fruit trees cons:

From finding a wild fruit tree to having a fully grown one from a cutling takes years.

Deathrate of cuttlings can be frustrating.

Not all fruits are equal, some give much less nutrition for unit, like cherries. 

All of the above plus the big harvest per tree makes it little rewarding to look for fruit variety.

 

Berry bushes pros:

Easy to find and accesible.

Potentially several harvests per year.

They dont die with extreme temperatures.

 

Berry bushes cons:

Cant be propagated. This makes getting big harvest difficult.

Lower production per tile over all.

Lower spoil timer, hard to preserve without making jam.

 

I think fruit trees can be a great way to feed your animals, produce aqua vittae in decent quantity or mass produce compost. But husbandry, destilation and composting are very long term and labour intense in my opinion to be worth it. (Rising some animal generations takes ages and its not really worth it, its cheaper to use a lot of tilled soil or just replace it than using fertilicers and there are better healing items than aqua vittae)

 

 

 

[LadyWYT]

27 minutes ago, Krosis said:

But husbandry, destilation and composting are very long term and labour intense in my opinion to be worth it. (Rising some animal generations takes ages and its not really worth it, its cheaper to use a lot of tilled soil or just replace it than using fertilicers and there are better healing items than aqua vittae)

I think the more labor-intensive gameplay loops probably feel a bit lacking right now, because the story isn't anywhere near fully fleshed out. Right now all we have is the Resonance Archive, and with 1.20 I think we're supposed to get four smaller locations to visit, but I'm pretty sure that's only scratching the surface of what's to come. I could be wrong, but I get the impression that completing the entire story of Vintage Story is probably supposed to take several in-game years, at least. In short, the more there is for the player to do regarding story, the more incentive there is to really dig into the more labor intensive stuff when building a base, since you'll need to survive(preferably in comfort) for quite a long time.

Of course, I would also argue that if it's fun gameplay, then it's "worth it" to do, even if the numbers don't exactly crunch in the most optimal manner.

[Maelstrom]

10 hours ago, Krosis said:

Berry bushes cons:

Cant be propagated. This makes getting big harvest difficult.

Only if berry bushes aren't collected when exploring for resources.  I usually stop collecting berry bushes after my first summer after acquiring over a stack of each bush type (although blueberry and white currants usually are about half the others).  The lower production per tile is probably a much bigger downside than acquisition.

[Echo Weaver]

14 minutes ago, Maelstrom said:

Only if berry bushes aren't collected when exploring for resources.  I usually stop collecting berry bushes after my first summer after acquiring over a stack of each bush type (although blueberry and white currants usually are about half the others).  The lower production per tile is probably a much bigger downside than acquisition.

Yes, it seems like I have enough before the first winter. Around my base, red currants are the thing, with a smattering of black currants. I have one blueberry bush ;). Though after a while I just focused on red and black currants, since the main effect of berry variety seems to be that they require more inventory slots.

I didn't think about it when gathering and replanting them, but it's probably a good idea to stagger their flowering cycles so that you get medium harvests with shorter time between, especially since they spoil so quickly.

[Thorfinn]

44 minutes ago, Echo Weaver said:

I didn't think about it when gathering and replanting them, but it's probably a good idea to stagger their flowering cycles so that you get medium harvests with shorter time between, especially since they spoil so quickly.

As long as they are coon-proofed, you can change up their cycles just by harvesting only as many as you want at a time. If you want to make a half-stack of fruit pies, once you have the flour ready, harvest just one stack of berries and get to baking so you get max freshness. Just get in from a big hunt? Pick only as many berries as you have meat add head to the kitchen.

Of course, they will all be in unison again next spring. 

If you are playing a multi-year game, rot and animal husbandry make a lot of sense, and that takes a different berry strategy than "go with the flow."

[Grummsh]

Ok so if there would be a change to berries somewhere in the future the early game food source/gathering things might come like some stuff from primitive survival for example - worms, crabs, snakes - fish traps, hooks and lines etc. And that is if youre starting in temperate/warm climate where there are actually berries around  As my last playthrough I finally started in hot climate and the beginning was so different. Instead of munching on berries at the start and filling my fruit bar mostly (with protein from meat along the way) starting in the hot climate i used to only fill up my protein meter at the start - termites baby!  

As to the eadible things we could add for the start of the game, those that you can forage early - from pine you could get pine nuts out of pinecones with a knife for example - for some protein. Or if you could get pine needles somehow you could cook them in the pot with some water for some nice "tea" - its well known survival drink.

Some other stuff could be walnut tree actually giving nuts you can eat and maybe adding hazelnut trees aswell. 

We already have thatch, papyrus and reed roots you can cook and east as a vegetable - maybe adding some more roots like that - for example lily roots might be edible.

Thats all i can think of atm but there are probably sooo many other stuff possible

[Thorfinn]

2 minutes ago, Grummsh said:

We already have thatch, papyrus and reed roots you can cook and east as a vegetable

And making them come back over time, like mushrooms.

[Krosis]

13 hours ago, LadyWYT said:

I think the more labor-intensive gameplay loops probably feel a bit lacking right now, because the story isn't anywhere near fully fleshed out. Right now all we have is the Resonance Archive, and with 1.20 I think we're supposed to get four smaller locations to visit, but I'm pretty sure that's only scratching the surface of what's to come. I could be wrong, but I get the impression that completing the entire story of Vintage Story is probably supposed to take several in-game years, at least. In short, the more there is for the player to do regarding story, the more incentive there is to really dig into the more labor intensive stuff when building a base, since you'll need to survive(preferably in comfort) for quite a long time.

Of course, I would also argue that if it's fun gameplay, then it's "worth it" to do, even if the numbers don't exactly crunch in the most optimal manner.

Absolutely! The only wrong way to play a game is not having fun. I also undestand its a work in progress.

But even if I like farming and cooking the most in VS, and try to enjoy the grind, I suspect these jobs will need some rebalance in the future.

[Echo Weaver]

If we're talking about early-game food in general, it makes me crazy how low the fish spawn rate is. Entire cultures have fed themselves primarily from fishing, but I can only find 2 in pools shallow enough for spear fishing about every 4 days.

I suppose plentiful fish makes early game too easy? With my low fertility harvest the first year, I dug up a lot of thatch and cattail roots.

Edited November 14, 2024 by Echo Weaver

[Krosis]

3 hours ago, Maelstrom said:

Only if berry bushes aren't collected when exploring for resources.  I usually stop collecting berry bushes after my first summer after acquiring over a stack of each bush type (although blueberry and white currants usually are about half the others).  The lower production per tile is probably a much bigger downside than acquisition.

Yeah absoultely. Im taking for granted people hoard berry bushes for their gardens. I have arround 2 stacks of both black and red currants, plus arround the same amount of cranberries amd some white currants. It is more than enough to keep your fruit nutrition full all year arround, but not as good for brewing. 

To produce aqua vitae in decent amounts I think fruit trees are the way.

[Thorfinn]

45 minutes ago, Echo Weaver said:

If we're talking about early-game food in general, it makes me crazy how low the fish spawn rate is. Entire cultures have fed themselves primarily from fishing, but I can only find 2 in pools shallow enough for spear fishing about every 4 days.

TBH, I've kind of stopped bothering with fish because game is so plentiful. My protein bar is almost always filled from wolf-flesh alone. And the occasional bear just takes things to the next level.

@Spear and Fang's excellent Primitive Survival mod does this right, IMO. When you clean the fish, toss the junk back into the water to keep harvest rates high. I hope that when the base game nears completion, some of that mod's concepts make it in.