What is the roadmap plan for health/infection/satiation?

[Broccoli Clock]

** Just to clarify, this is related to vanilla and official development, I appreciate there are mods that take advantage of the stats in game **

 

In the roadmap, here, there is the line..

"Comprehensive Status Effects System"

We have a somewhat complex (for vanilla) food and climate system, but having the ability to note what food groups you are eating is all fine and well but if it doesn't affect your character (other than just baseline hunger) then there's nothing stopping someone living a diet of bread alone. (the "other block game" operates like this)

There are no diseases in the game, which is interesting as the game seems ripe to take advantage of that with not only the food groups but also a fairly complex weather/season system. Don't eat fruit, get scurvy, is the simplistic way I'd put it, but there's much more nuance you could add.

What is officially planned (if anything) to take advantage of the frameworks already existing in the game? This doesn't have to be specifically for the next update, a more flexible "to be done later" is good enough for me. Also is there a wish list for this? Do you have your preferences? Are you happy to have vanilla expose these values, but you need mods to exploit them.

If a more complex health/food/disease loop was put into place, I do think that it should be toggle-able in the world generation. I wouldn't want to force people to play a realistic gamestyle if they are looking for a more relaxed, yet still survival, experience.

 

[Thorfinn]

7 hours ago, Broccoli Clock said:

but having the ability to note what food groups you are eating is all fine and well but if it doesn't affect your character (other than just baseline hunger) then there's nothing stopping someone living a diet of bread alone.

On the Character screen ("C") you can see your nutrition values, and as those rise, you get extra HP, up to 12.5 bonus HP if you have all 5 filled. That can make a huge difference when your damage reduction for armor gets factored in.

I suspect how intoxication works is probably roughly what other status effects will be.

[YordaEatsMelon]

8 hours ago, Broccoli Clock said:

There are no diseases in the game, which is interesting as the game seems ripe to take advantage of that with not only the food groups but also a fairly complex weather/season system. Don't eat fruit, get scurvy, is the simplistic way I'd put it, but there's much more nuance you could add.

Some Interesting opportunities?....

1. nutritional deficiencies (scurvy, rickets), 
2. infections (malaria, unclean wounds, influenza),
3. temporal diseases (if you get over a certain level of damage from a monster, esp. like the ones found deep down, there's a % chance you can develop a condition that's similar to rot or rust. This could be temporary, or it could be permanent but reversible.)

Their implementation would have to be limited, otherwise players would have a lot to keep up with on top of getting food, avoiding wild animal attacks, making shelter, mining, mitigating spoilage, etc., especially for players who love more extreme climates.

It could be fun if the devs thought, "So, I see some of you players want to live in a tropical climate where food has long growing seasons. Here, now there's risk of malaria to contend with." How to implement something like malaria though? I don't know

Edited March 26, 2025 by YordaEatsMelon

[Broccoli Clock]

15 hours ago, Thorfinn said:

On the Character screen ("C") you can see your nutrition values, and as those rise, you get extra HP, up to 12.5 bonus HP if you have all 5 filled. That can make a huge difference when your damage reduction for armor gets factored in

It's the dairy. I've not managed to produce a single drop of milk in 100s of hours. It's nice that's a buff, but I feel it's out of the reach of most players.

14 hours ago, YordaEatsMelon said:

Some Interesting opportunities?....

1. nutritional deficiencies (scurvy, rickets), 
2. infections (malaria, unclean wounds, influenza),
3. temporal diseases (if you get over a certain level of damage from a monster, esp. like the ones found deep down, there's a % chance you can develop a condition that's similar to rot or rust. This could be temporary, or it could be permanent but reversible.)

Their implementation would have to be limited, otherwise players would have a lot to keep up with on top of getting food, avoiding wild animal attacks, making shelter, mining, mitigating spoilage, etc., especially for players who love more extreme climates.

It could be fun if the devs thought, "So, I see some of you players want to live in a tropical climate where food has long growing seasons. Here, now there's risk of malaria to contend with." How to implement something like malaria though? I don't know

Yes, this is the sort of thing I was talking about. There is the framework there to hook all sorts of nuanced disease stuff. Like you say, they would need to have a certain negligibility to them. I don't know how deep into the realism the devs want to go, I appreciate the game is still being developed and you don't want to introduce complex mechanics only to need to change them later down the road, but leaning into realism helps extend the gap between VS and "the other block game".

[Thorfinn]

Definitely mod territory. You have a seraph who repeatedly rises from the dead, and can even change where he rises, being affected by deficiency diseases? Even if there were anything fun about that, it makes no sense. Besides, it's always better game design to reward the player for doing something "right" than to punish him for doing it "wrong". Same is true for parenting, BTW.

Incidentally, dairy is not that hard to do. It's rare that I have not found an ag trader by June, but even if you tend to be unlucky that way, it's really easy to box a sheep in using fences. About a quarter stack of them keeps them safe from predators, and you can get a bucket of milk whenever you like. What is a pain is getting them domesticated. Not difficult, just massively time consuming.

[Maelstrom]

From the Roadmap page:

Quote

• Herbalism / Brewing system

Once upon a time this was listed as Alchemy.  I expect the status effects come from a more robust herbalism system than the poultices we currently have.  I further expect that all those dozens of muchrooms (and hopefully flowers) will be used in concocting different things (salves, tinctures, poultices, etc) giving different status effects.  I hope that the brewing we currently have will be a requirement for some of those "alchemical" products.  Hopefully we might see status effects that would make parkour easier, regenerative health, or a bonus to stealth.

[dakko]

4 hours ago, Maelstrom said:

From the Roadmap page:

Once upon a time this was listed as Alchemy.  I expect the status effects come from a more robust herbalism system than the poultices we currently have.  I further expect that all those dozens of muchrooms (and hopefully flowers) will be used in concocting different things (salves, tinctures, poultices, etc) giving different status effects.  I hope that the brewing we currently have will be a requirement for some of those "alchemical" products.  Hopefully we might see status effects that would make parkour easier, regenerative health, or a bonus to stealth.

Okay, I was all set to toss health issues to mod territory as they seem so tedious to me and the opposite of fun. But herbalism?! Herbalism is a whole 'nother story! I would love to make salves and tinctures, etc. Perfect for being Camp Mom!

[Broccoli Clock]

16 hours ago, Thorfinn said:

Definitely mod territory. You have a seraph who repeatedly rises from the dead, and can even change where he rises, being affected by deficiency diseases? Even if there were anything fun about that, it makes no sense. Besides, it's always better game design to reward the player for doing something "right" than to punish him for doing it "wrong". Same is true for parenting, BTW.

I think at its most basic, my question is, "we have the framework to apply positive and negative buffs to the character but other than cold and wet, and basic hunger, those things are not taken advantage of (or at least if they are it's not exposed to the player). What, if any, are the plans to take advantage of that, primarily leaning into the realism of the game?"

However, the argument that you shouldn't punish people for "doing it wrong", is (imo) a bit flat, considering that's what happens in the game already. Choose to take on a wolf without weapons, that's "wrong", you will die, you are punished for it. Choose to mine under unstable rocks, that's "wrong", you'll get covered by a cave-in, you are punished for it. Choose to not wear enough clothes in winter, that is "wrong", you will freeze, you are being punished for it. I don't mean to sound glib or dismissive of the point you are making, just that being punished is already part of the game loop.

Now, if you were to say, "look if you want your ultra survival stuff in a mod, leave vanilla alone", then I think that's fair. I wouldn't want to impose something on the game that others were not in favour of.

 

16 hours ago, Maelstrom said:

I further expect that all those dozens of muchrooms (and hopefully flowers) will be used in concocting different things (salves, tinctures, poultices, etc) giving different status effects.  I hope that the brewing we currently have will be a requirement for some of those "alchemical" products.  Hopefully we might see status effects that would make parkour easier, regenerative health, or a bonus to stealth.

 

11 hours ago, dakko said:

Okay, I was all set to toss health issues to mod territory as they seem so tedious to me and the opposite of fun. But herbalism?! Herbalism is a whole 'nother story! I would love to make salves and tinctures, etc. Perfect for being Camp Mom!

See I think there is definitely scope to expand this. My preference would be that it leans into the middle ages herbalism style, that fits the lore and the vibe of the game. I have to admit that I don't like the idea of magic being introduced, considering it's somewhat adjacent to herbalism.

@dakko There are "health issues" in the game already; cold, hunger, wet. Would you prefer to remove them? If you play with mods, do you use xLib, which provides similar environmental/character statuses?

 

 

Overall, and as a side note to my initial post, I don't want to seem that I am demanding or requesting anything, just asking where the game plans to go in this respect. I fully understand that as a newish player, my wish list is likely to be different to those who have spent years playing the game. I understand why some may baulk at the idea of a more complex, but also more demanding, environment.

[Maelstrom]

2 hours ago, Broccoli Clock said:

However, the argument that you shouldn't punish people for "doing it wrong", is (imo) a bit flat, considering that's what happens in the game already. Choose to take on a wolf without weapons, that's "wrong", you will die, you are punished for it. Choose to mine under unstable rocks, that's "wrong", you'll get covered by a cave-in, you are punished for it. Choose to not wear enough clothes in winter, that is "wrong", you will freeze, you are being punished for it. I don't mean to sound glib or dismissive of the point you are making, just that being punished is already part of the game loop.

It sounds to me like you're saying unwanted consequences of actions are the game telling you that you are playing the game wrong.  I don't see it that way at all.  The game presents different ways to deal with a problem.  Too cold in winter?  you can light a fire and warm up, even if you're buck nekkid.  To say that all the unwanted things in the game are "punishment" for playing the game wrong is...  entitled.  Let's not even mention that everything yo umentioned has a world gen option to turn it off (cave-ins) or alter the point at which the desired action has a negative consequence (freezing in winter).

[dakko]

2 hours ago, Broccoli Clock said:

See I think there is definitely scope to expand this. My preference would be that it leans into the middle ages herbalism style, that fits the lore and the vibe of the game. I have to admit that I don't like the idea of magic being introduced, considering it's somewhat adjacent to herbalism.

@dakko There are "health issues" in the game already; cold, hunger, wet. Would you prefer to remove them? If you play with mods, do you use xLib, which provides similar environmental/character statuses?

Magic as adjacent to herbalism? I'd have to disagree there. I hope that perception is an association with some game or novel; otherwise you'd be missing out on real life benefits.

I do take advantage of world gen settings so that cold and hunger have less of an impact on my seraph. I can see your point about desiring a more complex food/health/disease loop, however it is not something that I would look forward to. Which is the beauty of settings and mods! We can all play as we prefer.

No, I am unfamiliar with xLib.

[Broccoli Clock]

15 minutes ago, Maelstrom said:

To say that all the unwanted things in the game are "punishment" for playing the game wrong is...  entitled.

If you think that, then I feel you may have misinterpreted my comments. Perhaps that's my fault for not being entirely clear, so apologies for any confusion.

My point was just to counter that there are consequences for your actions in the game already, so asking if further consequences could be included in future development doesn't (to me at least) seem like a crazy question, especially as we have the framework for it. This was a response to the it's always better game design to reward the player for doing something "right" than to punish him for doing it "wrong".

There was a reason I put "wrong" into quotes, to signify that it's open to debate. Not to suggest that people must play the "right" or "wrong" way. If that's how you thought I meant it, then I understand the entitled comment, but it's not what I meant.

11 minutes ago, dakko said:

Magic as adjacent to herbalism? I'd have to disagree there. I hope that perception is an association with some game or novel; otherwise you'd be missing out on real life benefits.

Within a gaming environment, things like Skyrim has set the tone for lots of games, rightly or wrongly. I think historically there is a certain connection between pagan magic and witchcraft with the herbalism. All within the wheelhouse of fantasy/rpg, imo.

11 minutes ago, dakko said:

I do take advantage of world gen settings so that cold and hunger have less of an impact on my seraph. I can see your point about desiring a more complex food/health/disease loop, however it is not something that I would look forward to. Which is the beauty of settings and mods! We can all play as we prefer.

Less desiring, although I think there is potential for expansion in this area and there seems to be a framework for it to hang onto, more just asking where the devs intend the game to go.

 

I feel I've gotten some pushback here as if I am demanding changes, that I am somehow enforcing stuff onto others, I'm not, I am just genuinely interested to see if this part of the game will be expanded.

 

Edited March 28, 2025 by Broccoli Clock

[dakko]

3 minutes ago, Broccoli Clock said:

I feel I've gotten some pushback here as if I am demanding changes, that I am somehow enforcing stuff onto others, I'm not, I am just genuinely interested to see if this part of the game will be expanded.

No pushback intended from me.

[Broccoli Clock]

Just now, dakko said:

No pushback intended from me.

It's fine, I'm a bit on the spectrum so I sometimes say/write things that people get annoyed/frustrated with without that being my intention. It makes me a little defensive about my comments.

[dakko]

1 minute ago, Broccoli Clock said:

It's fine, I'm a bit on the spectrum so I sometimes say/write things that people get annoyed/frustrated with without that being my intention. It makes me a little defensive about my comments.

Same! Some people do not respond well to my bluntness, but I'm at a bit of a loss as to what to do about it.

[Maelstrom]

6 minutes ago, Broccoli Clock said:

If you think that, then I feel you may have misinterpreted my comments. Perhaps that's my fault for not being entirely clear, so apologies for any confusion.

There was a reason I put "wrong" into quotes, to signify that it's open to debate. Not to suggest that people must play the "right" or "wrong" way. If that's how you thought I meant it, then I understand the entitled comment, but it's not what I meant.

I figured that was probably the case.  Thank you for clarifying what you intended to say.  I didn't want my comment to sound like I thought you were wrong - trying to clarify things when my 64k brain is operating on only 32k.  It's about 6 am for me currently, so my brain may not be fully functioning yet, making both reading comprehension and applying the english language in writing less than optimal.  

I don't see a magic element to VS ever coming into the game.  Until about 12 or 18 months ago the homepage indicated the game had Lovecraftian themes.  Because of this game I finally got a collection of Lovecraft's works and will say that at no point does he ever invoke magic.  His stories always have a technology base and the weird stuff that happens is when things from other dimensions intersect with our world.  The devs have done an absolutely masterful job in portraying Lovecraft's world in their own story.  I have no fear of anything like potions, enchanting, spells or anything else like magic.

[Broccoli Clock]

2 minutes ago, Maelstrom said:

I figured that was probably the case.  Thank you for clarifying what you intended to say.

No probs, I sometimes come across as absolutist or (perhaps?) arrogant. I really don't mean to but as I said in my previous post being on the spectrum can be a nightmare for that. Although I am more than happy, at any time, to be called out to defend my words.
 

2 minutes ago, Maelstrom said:

I don't see a magic element to VS ever coming into the game.  Until about 12 or 18 months ago the homepage indicated the game had Lovecraftian themes.  Because of this game I finally got a collection of Lovecraft's works and will say that at no point does he ever invoke magic.  His stories always have a technology base and the weird stuff that happens is when things from other dimensions intersect with our world.  The devs have done an absolutely masterful job in portraying Lovecraft's world in their own story.  I have no fear of anything like potions, enchanting, spells or anything else like magic.

I live an odd gaming existence where I dislike RPG/Fantasy but I play RPG/Fantasy games, yet I've got a fairly low tolerance of RPG/Fantasy elements. I love the idea of herbalism based on two things, I think there is good potential for expansion (for example all the "useless" poison mushrooms), but also give me cute voxel glass flasks filled with coloured liquid to put on my chiselled shelf. The sheer aesthetics of herbalism is a big pull.

Magic is sort of the line I draw, I've never been a fan of it, and while I don't feel tension from any of the Eldritch horror inspired stuff, it's definitely something I can embrace.

[Maelstrom]

I don't see the devs making a bunch of poison mushrooms and creating brewing if either weren't intended for herbalism.  The only thing brewing offers at this point is the highest tier bandage that expires and a novelty of getting drunk.  I just don't see either of those being the end point for brewing.  At this point I would feel betrayed if the herbalism mentioned would not include either one of those.  I suspect that all the plethora of flowers would also factor into herbalism, but only time will tell. 

 

I really, Really, REALLY, want to see herbalism in 1.22.   

Pretty Please @Tyron?  

[Maelstrom]

29 minutes ago, dakko said:

Same! Some people do not respond well to my bluntness, but I'm at a bit of a loss as to what to do about it.

At the risk of dragging this thread off topic...

Yeah.  I've got a nice bit o' sarcasm that seasons my bluntness.  Well, maybe not seasoning, it's more like sarcasm is my linqua franca.  Added to a filter the size of a golf ball about 12 inches outside of my mouth aaaaaaand...  I get in trouble regularly for what I say.

[Thorfinn]

It's been posted several times but...  Tedious health meters in survival games

Plus, the easy way of fixing things when your meters go crazy is to jump off a cliff, or go for a swim and "forget" to surface to take a breath or challenge a grizzly to arm wrestle. But if you are going to lose some boon you've built up, might want to rethink that.

Thing is, nutrition already has buffs. You hardly need a debuff for scurvy, unless you are actually a camp mom who is in charge of cooking and crafting and has no need of HP, or whatever. If 2.5 HP isn't enough incentive, I'd rather see the buff increased than a debuff added, if that makes sense. Otherwise, survival game logic creeps in and it's better to respawn than try to fix it.

[EDIT]

Making poultices heal over time was another solution in search of a problem, IMO. When you get to the first boss battle, you can't simply retreat to give your bandages time to do their work. A solution that was more realistic, yes, but which drastically affected the dynamics of the game design itself.

Edited March 28, 2025 by Thorfinn