The Class System is Controversial, But Any Solutions Are Even More So! Why?

[Krougal]

5 hours ago, -Glue- said:

I play as commoner with class recipes unlocked. Its a simple life.

Yeah, I am almost as likely to pick commoner as hunter.

I always play with recipes unlocked.

[Shotai]

I'm of the opinion that locking a person out of something because they didn't pick a class is some hot dog water. I can't have a sword because I'm not a blackguard? I mean. Alright . . . but now you're tryna tell me I can't make a certain bow because I'm not a hunter? And now I can't make sewing kits because I'm not a tailor? Holy shit, who, what, where, why; that just sounds dumb as hell and it plays similarly.

Why not go all the way? You can't make an iron pickaxe without being a miner. Just buy the iron pickaxe from the traders . Joking, obviously. But I think the stats speak on their own, or at least they should. Healers, well, heal better. Guards hit harder. The hunter, well, is skilled with a bow because they're a hunter. The tailor can work with significantly less resources and the miner not only mines faster but gets more when they mine.

This is good enough, no?

[LadyWYT]

20 minutes ago, Shotai said:

This is good enough, no?

Eh, I'd somewhat disagree. Any class can craft a sword, but it makes sense that only Blackguards will have the knowledge required to craft Blackguard equipment, given that said equipment is specialized(statwise it's better than its iron counterparts). Likewise, something like the recurve bow one could argue requires a Hunter's expertise, since it technically requires more sophisticated composite construction that simpler bows like the longbow do not(and this is where the case could be made for the crude bow/arrows to be available for all classes). Sewing kits are a little harder to argue, but making high quality thread and needles for that kind of fancy clothing and repair efficiency probably also requires specialized knowledge that the Tailor would have.

I think though, that if you're going to take away the class-exclusive recipes and make them available to everyone to craft, then you'd need to change the traits accordingly. Either remove all the crafting traits, or change them to boost their respective classes further in an appropriate fashion. The former isn't great, because it's taking away some class flavor without anything in return. The latter, however, is risky, given you could end up making some classes too strong of pick, or otherwise have Commoner overshadowed by everything else.

As it stands currently, the classes are fairly balanced, and the class-exclusive recipe issue is easily solved by just setting that rule to "false" in the world config. The only exception to the rule is the tuning spear's locust taming ability--you will need to be a Clockmaker to tame locusts since the ability is tied to the class itself, and not just the item.

[Krougal]

30 minutes ago, Shotai said:

I'm of the opinion that locking a person out of something because they didn't pick a class is some hot dog water. I can't have a sword because I'm not a blackguard? I mean. Alright . . . but now you're tryna tell me I can't make a certain bow because I'm not a hunter? And now I can't make sewing kits because I'm not a tailor? Holy shit, who, what, where, why; that just sounds dumb as hell and it plays similarly.

Why not go all the way? You can't make an iron pickaxe without being a miner. Just buy the iron pickaxe from the traders . Joking, obviously. But I think the stats speak on their own, or at least they should. Healers, well, heal better. Guards hit harder. The hunter, well, is skilled with a bow because they're a hunter. The tailor can work with significantly less resources and the miner not only mines faster but gets more when they mine.

This is good enough, no?

Hey man, don't knock the dirty water dog, it was an icon from a better time in NYC...

Yes, I think a lot of us really appreciate the option to disable that.

[HalfAxd]

I always play as Commoner... I've never understood the fixation on class in games like this...  it's like shields in a space game... everyone gets mad if you don't have them.

VS has an excellent progression mechanic based on what you do/create and the time you spend doing that gets its reward in the end.  It's simplicity without shoe-horning buffs and de-buffs that everyone argues about.

As long as I can just be Common, I'll be happy. 

[Shotai]

18 minutes ago, LadyWYT said:

Eh, I'd somewhat disagree. Any class can craft a sword, but it makes sense that only Blackguards will have the knowledge required to craft Blackguard equipment, given that said equipment is specialized(statwise it's better than its iron counterparts). Likewise, something like the recurve bow one could argue requires a Hunter's expertise, since it technically requires more sophisticated composite construction that simpler bows like the longbow do not(and this is where the case could be made for the crude bow/arrows to be available for all classes). Sewing kits are a little harder to argue, but making high quality thread and needles for that kind of fancy clothing and repair efficiency probably also requires specialized knowledge that the Tailor would have.

I think though, that if you're going to take away the class-exclusive recipes and make them available to everyone to craft, then you'd need to change the traits accordingly. Either remove all the crafting traits, or change them to boost their respective classes further in an appropriate fashion. The former isn't great, because it's taking away some class flavor without anything in return. The latter, however, is risky, given you could end up making some classes too strong of pick, or otherwise have Commoner overshadowed by everything else.

As it stands currently, the classes are fairly balanced, and the class-exclusive recipe issue is easily solved by just setting that rule to "false" in the world config. The only exception to the rule is the tuning spear's locust taming ability--you will need to be a Clockmaker to tame locusts since the ability is tied to the class itself, and not just the item.

Honestly, that's fine, I can agree with that. But I'd really appreciate being able to make a sword, it doesn't need to be a BG sword. In general, I think that the game would help a lot if it had more variety in terms of weapons. Y'know, a glaive, short sword, long sword, 2h sword, etc.

[LadyWYT]

2 minutes ago, Shotai said:

Honestly, that's fine, I can agree with that. But I'd really appreciate being able to make a sword, it doesn't need to be a BG sword. In general, I think that the game would help a lot if it had more variety in terms of weapons. Y'know, a glaive, short sword, long sword, 2h sword, etc.

Now this I can 100% get behind, since I'm really not a fan of the falx design. I can appreciate that it's different, and it's a weapon specialized for battling the unnatural, but it's just not the same as the classic European sword style. There is some precedent for more weapon types, given the ruined weapons you can collect, but I'm not sure that we'll ever see proper functional versions added to the game.

Typically, I just find a weapon mod I like and use that to solve the issue.

[ifoz]

2 hours ago, Shotai said:

I'm of the opinion that locking a person out of something because they didn't pick a class is some hot dog water. I can't have a sword because I'm not a blackguard? I mean. Alright . . . but now you're tryna tell me I can't make a certain bow because I'm not a hunter? And now I can't make sewing kits because I'm not a tailor? Holy shit, who, what, where, why; that just sounds dumb as hell and it plays similarly.

By the way, classes are less restricted than you probably think!

Blackguards only get one type of sword, which is honestly worse than using normal falxes.
Any class can buy the Hunter's recurve bow from a survival goods trader, pretty cheap too.
Any class can also repair clothes, sewing kits aren't required. They're a little more efficient, but you can also just click and drop regular linen onto your clothes to repair them.

[Krougal]

21 minutes ago, ifoz said:

By the way, classes are less restricted than you probably think!

Blackguards only get one type of sword, which is honestly worse than using normal falxes.
Any class can buy the Hunter's recurve bow from a survival goods trader, pretty cheap too.
Any class can also repair clothes, sewing kits aren't required. They're a little more efficient, but you can also just click and drop regular linen onto your clothes to repair them.

Except BG sword is made of regular iron and equal to meteoric iron falx, so it's an upgrade at that level, but still outclassed by steel.

Would have been more fair to make it like steel, considering the recurve is quite a bit better than the longbow (and don't be nerfing my recurve!!!).

 

[ifoz]

1 minute ago, Krougal said:

Except BG sword is made of regular iron and equal to meteoric iron falx, so it's an upgrade at that level, but still outclassed by steel.

Would have been more fair to make it like steel, considering the recurve is quite a bit better than the longbow (and don't be nerfing my recurve!!!).

Due to an oversight, BG sword swings slower than a falx, so it actually has worse DPS.
BG stuff was also added before steel existed iirc, so that's why it has now kind of been outclassed.

[Shotai]

20 minutes ago, ifoz said:

By the way, classes are less restricted than you probably think!

Blackguards only get one type of sword, which is honestly worse than using normal falxes.
Any class can buy the Hunter's recurve bow from a survival goods trader, pretty cheap too.
Any class can also repair clothes, sewing kits aren't required. They're a little more efficient, but you can also just click and drop regular linen onto your clothes to repair them.

I've made about 300 cogs recently and I've never seen the hunters recurve bow for sale. Those are of the 9 traders near me, they're pretty much bankrupt from me abusing them. You can, technically, find that in the shop. I wouldn't exactly hold my breath thinking that it will eventually happen that season, though. You could be waiting 20+ IRL hours. I wouldn't say that it's strictly about stats, I just find it weird that we are defaulted to one weapon and it's a sickle of all things.

Sewing kit is a bit different, it's aesthetics. You need the sewing kit to craft 30+ items. Or you can hope that the shop spawns the items that you need. Some of which I've never really seen before in the shop with 80 hours of returning to the game.

[LadyWYT]

1 minute ago, ifoz said:

Due to an oversight, BG sword swings slower than a falx, so it actually has worse DPS.

Technically the character never swings with the BG blade, but stabs with it. Joke's aside, a fair point about DPS though.

 

6 minutes ago, Krougal said:

the recurve is quite a bit better than the longbow (and don't be nerfing my recurve!!!).

Kind of. The recurve bow is more accurate and does a tad bit more damage than the longbow, but also has lower durability and requires slightly better materials in the crafting(leather instead of pelt). Not that leather is difficult to come by, or that lower durability is really that much of a drawback, but anyway...

[Krougal]

On 8/15/2025 at 10:00 PM, LadyWYT said:

Technically the character never swings with the BG blade, but stabs with it. Joke's aside, a fair point about DPS though.

 

Kind of. The recurve bow is more accurate and does a tad bit more damage than the longbow, but also has lower durability and requires slightly better materials in the crafting(leather instead of pelt). Not that leather is difficult to come by, or that lower durability is really that much of a drawback, but anyway...

I hadn't noticed the sword was slower, I've used it here and there.

Out in the field, only performance matters. I will generally progress through all 4 bows in a game (unless I get lucky with flax before making a crude), but once I can make the recurve, I keep 4 of them racked, or at least bowstaves drying to be made into spares.

In the end though, it is not a huge difference. The longbow works well enough. Recurve does let you soak up a bit more armor penalty, but then I am expecting melee if wearing heavy anyway.

Edited August 19, 2025 by Krougal

[ifoz]

1 hour ago, Shotai said:

Sewing kit is a bit different, it's aesthetics. You need the sewing kit to craft 30+ items. Or you can hope that the shop spawns the items that you need. Some of which I've never really seen before in the shop with 80 hours of returning to the game.

You also need the tailor trait to make those items, too.
However, most of those are just tailored gambeson variants, or some tailor-only clothes. The tailor only gets 11 true exclusive clothes, as others can be found in ruins or bought from traders.

You also do not need to be a tailor to obtain the minmaxxed warmest setup (as of 1.21, this is +25.3 degrees iirc)

Edited August 16, 2025 by ifoz

[Rudometkin]

It is suggested adding classes is to add artificial limitations.

I disagree with this sentiment. The entire game is *artificial*. Let's be honest with ourselves.

'*Natural*' has to be relative to something. Tying limitations to a proper class system is natural and has depth. If that isn't natural limitation, then what is?

[Krougal]

On 8/15/2025 at 11:39 PM, ifoz said:

You also need the tailor trait to make those items, too.
However, most of those are just tailored gambeson variants, or some tailor-only clothes. The tailor only gets 11 true exclusive clothes, as others can be found in ruins or bought from traders.

You also do not need to be a tailor to obtain the minmaxxed warmest setup (as of 1.21, this is +25.3 degrees iirc)

I think we were at about 19.5 C last time it came up (which was fairly recent, forgot which thread). Was a lot of Nadiyan fur (I am assuming can be bought in Nadiya?) and the prince fur (which you have to find). Tailor could craft some equal pieces, although some of the tailor pieces can be found too (reindeer herder shoes are absolute best in class)

 

Edited August 18, 2025 by Krougal

[Cetasaya]

Skimmed the thread so apologies if im retreading the same ground or running off into the ditch here...

I dont really bother with anything but commoner in single player and if we wanna make it more fun for multiplayer, the classes need to have MUUUUUCH more bite in both positive and negative traits.  Like ONLY the clothier can make ANY clothing better than rags, not just one or two recipes.  EVERYONE needs clothes and gets massive temp/defense/movement buffs from it.  Making clothes is a very time and material consuming process that is incredibly deep, customisable, and intricate way to play the game.  Just like smithing and pottery making is now.  And you can NEVER deal more than a tiny fraction of the damage a warrior equivalent can do.  Cant make bows better than the starter one.  Cant cook as well as a cook.  Cant chop trees down as effficiently as a lumberjack or can chops the better trees and cannot get nearly as much useable wood, seeds, sticks, resin, ect..  Cant gather as much as a gatherer, ect., ect.  No toes can be stepped on, we all have our vital roles to play, even if we each can take on 2, 3, 4, ect more classes.

Imagine.  Logging onto a server and window shopping fully customisable furniture, paintings, clothing, pottery, armor, ect. that you couldnt make yourself.  Entire economies driven by scarcity just like real life.

90% of the time, the way the classes are now are just afterthoughts that are only noticabale when one of the negative traits rears their ugly head.  If im a clothier, I want the entire experience to be tinted through a clothier's eyes, just like in real life.  Because in a multiplayer game, if everyone can do everything and if everything can be done in a reasonable amount of time for everyone, it's not nearly as compelling of a multiplayer experience than it could be.

[LadyWYT]

3 minutes ago, Cetasaya said:

I dont really bother with anything but commoner in single player and if we wanna make it more fun for multiplayer, the classes need to have MUUUUUCH more bite in both positive and negative traits.  Like ONLY the clothier can make ANY clothing better than rags, not just one or two recipes.  EVERYONE needs clothes and gets massive temp/defense/movement buffs from it.  Making clothes is a very time and material consuming process that is incredibly deep, customisable, and intricate way to play the game.  Just like smithing and pottery making is now.  And you can NEVER deal more than a tiny fraction of the damage a warrior equivalent can do.  Cant make bows better than the starter one.  Cant cook as well as a cook.  Cant chop trees down as effficiently as a lumberjack or can chops the better trees and cannot get nearly as much useable wood, seeds, sticks, resin, ect..  Cant gather as much as a gatherer, ect., ect.  No toes can be stepped on, we all have our vital roles to play, even if we each can take on 2, 3, 4, ect more classes.

This would make class choice a lot more important in multiplayer, yes, but it would penalize small servers that can't cover all the classes, as well as practically shoehorn singleplayer into picking Commoner every single time. The way the classes are balanced currently may not be the most exciting thing in the world, but it allows each class to function well in a singleplayer world, while also letting players have a bit of a niche role in a multiplayer setting.

[ifoz]

2 hours ago, Krougal said:

I think we were at about 19.5 C last time it came up (which was fairly recent, forgot which thread). Was a lot of Nadiyan fur (I am assuming can be bought in Nadiya?) and the prince fur (which you have to find). Tailor could craft some equal pieces, although some of the tailor pieces can be found too (reindeer herder shoes are absolute best in class)

Yeah.

Current 1.21 best setup is:
Head: Nadiyan fur hat (bought)
Shoulders: Prince fur (found in ruins)
Coat: Nadiyan fur jacket or reindeer herder coat (bought | found in ruins or tailor crafted)
Shirt: Nadiyan fur shirt or pastoral/chateau shirts (bought | tailor crafted)
Pants: Nadiyan fur pants or woolen leggings/pants (bought | bought)
Boots: Reindeer herder fur shoes (found in ruins or tailor crafted)
Gloves: Nadiyan fur mittens or fur gloves (bought | crafted)
Mask: Barber surgeon hood (found in ruins)
Belt: Any belt that gives +0.3 warmth (Many different methods to obtain different belts, they all do the same thing. Malefactor's starting sash is what I use).

Then polar bear armour in each armour slot for an extra +4.5

Edited August 19, 2025 by ifoz

[Krougal]

7 minutes ago, ifoz said:

Then polar bear armour in each armour slot for an extra +4.5

Yeah, come to think of it, you were probably who I got the list from.

I forgot about the polar bear armor.

[Rudometkin]

1 hour ago, Cetasaya said:

Skimmed the thread so apologies if im retreading the same ground or running off into the ditch here...

I dont really bother with anything but commoner in single player and if we wanna make it more fun for multiplayer, the classes need to have MUUUUUCH more bite in both positive and negative traits.  Like ONLY the clothier can make ANY clothing better than rags, not just one or two recipes.  EVERYONE needs clothes and gets massive temp/defense/movement buffs from it.  Making clothes is a very time and material consuming process that is incredibly deep, customisable, and intricate way to play the game.  Just like smithing and pottery making is now.  And you can NEVER deal more than a tiny fraction of the damage a warrior equivalent can do.  Cant make bows better than the starter one.  Cant cook as well as a cook.  Cant chop trees down as effficiently as a lumberjack or can chops the better trees and cannot get nearly as much useable wood, seeds, sticks, resin, ect..  Cant gather as much as a gatherer, ect., ect.  No toes can be stepped on, we all have our vital roles to play, even if we each can take on 2, 3, 4, ect more classes.

Imagine.  Logging onto a server and window shopping fully customisable furniture, paintings, clothing, pottery, armor, ect. that you couldnt make yourself.  Entire economies driven by scarcity just like real life.

90% of the time, the way the classes are now are just afterthoughts that are only noticabale when one of the negative traits rears their ugly head.  If im a clothier, I want the entire experience to be tinted through a clothier's eyes, just like in real life.  Because in a multiplayer game, if everyone can do everything and if everything can be done in a reasonable amount of time for everyone, it's not nearly as compelling of a multiplayer experience than it could be.

1 hour ago, LadyWYT said:

This would make class choice a lot more important in multiplayer, yes, but it would penalize small servers that can't cover all the classes, as well as practically shoehorn singleplayer into picking Commoner every single time. The way the classes are balanced currently may not be the most exciting thing in the world, but it allows each class to function well in a singleplayer world, while also letting players have a bit of a niche role in a multiplayer setting.

I generally agree with both of these takes.

What would be super awesome, but take a huge amount of development effort, is if it was possible to create and customize classes in world settings. So the current given classes would be vanilla templates. The "Standard" experience.

Create a class, name it Lumberjack, choose through a selection of clothing to make up the style, choose a list of available pros and cons. For example, exclusively mines (X block), proficiency in (X tool), starting HP (x amount), cannot craft (X item). There can be a dozen of these options.

For the large immersive server, the Lumberjack might be the only class allowed to mine lumber blocks (main pro).

For the small server, the Lumberjack might be able to mine lumber blocks faster and make better use of axes or something (main pro).

[CastIronFabric]

On 8/15/2025 at 5:02 AM, -Glue- said:

I play as commoner with class recipes unlocked. Its a simple life.

Personally, I don't think VS really needs the classes, they really don't have much gameplay to offer other than incentivize large groups to properly play their assigned roles. It can work in those specific situations, but in small groups, or solo, its not even worth having on. Why limit yourself?

I think it would be interesting to have items and artifacts that boost specific traits. So you can make a specific build, but are never locked into that build via skills or traits. Don't want to play as a tank anymore? Just swap out the tank gear for archer gear. Sorta like Terraria accessories, but more subtle. Though, I am not sure how much it would fit into VS. I don't think it should necessarily focus on classes and builds. Instead, just let the player be the player. A few consumable boosts here, a couple trinkets there. Nothing crazy.
However, I am more than content as the commoner with no traits or abilities. Just a guy trying to survive. Classes, skills, accessories, none of that is really needed imo.

right, I feel like this is a question that has already been addressed really since the birth of D&D in 1974.

Large groups that want to work with interdependence. yeah

Small to solo groups that want to do everything in the game...turn off.

seems straightforward to me.

 

[Steel General]

On 8/14/2025 at 7:31 PM, ifoz said:

Story spoilers, but..

Very well - it seems my dream of kit bag classes is more suitable to the Homo Sapiens setting

Edited August 19, 2025 by Steel General
It's the keyboard's fault

[CastIronFabric]

1 hour ago, Steel General said:

Very well - it seems my dream of kit bag classes is more suitable to the Homo Sapiens setting

I do not even understand that setting. 

For some reason because one does not want to engage in a story that means they do not want traders or any ruins to loot? I do not get that.

[Krougal]

1 minute ago, CastIronFabric said:

I do not even understand that setting. 

For some reason because one does not want to engage in a story that means they do not want traders or any ruins to loot? I do not get that.

Blank slate survival world. It's just you and what you build. It has its appeal for some I guess.