Really questionable changes in 1.22 pre1

[Chuckerton]

From what i can see reading the discussion, I think really this is less of a problem of spears being nerfed and more of a problem of hunting being kind of unfun and spears being the "meta". "Chase this deer across a field for a day" is fun, once. If hunting was a bit more... deliberate, I don't think we would be having this conversation. What I think is that dealing above a threshold of damage in one hit should do some kind of "critical injury", like if you do x damage in one hit, the animal breaks a leg and be extremely slow or will fatally bleed out in like 20 seconds. Because right now, I'm seeing the spear nerf being bad, primarily because people throw them to hunt (also why I suggested javelins earlier because it seems that's what people use spears for 90% of the time). 

Then it wouldn't really matter how much less damage it does, as long as it hits that threshold that will either simplify hunting it by slowing it until you can catch it and finish it off or just having to find its corpse nearby after it runs off and bleeds out. 

It would also mean hunters could meet that threshold with earlier weapons (and therefore do the hunting thing earlier), and blackguard would struggle with food even more, which is kind of in character.

Edited February 10 by Chuckerton

[Bumber]

Are spears subject to tempering? Could you get an iron spear to the old bronze damage without a high chance of breaking it?

Edited February 10 by Bumber

[Shane Clark]

1 hour ago, Chuckerton said:

From what i can see reading the discussion, I think really this is less of a problem of spears being nerfed and more of a problem of hunting being kind of unfun and spears being the "meta". "Chase this deer across a field for a day" is fun, once. If hunting was a bit more... deliberate, I don't think we would be having this conversation. What I think is that dealing above a threshold of damage in one hit should do some kind of "critical injury", like if you do x damage in one hit, the animal breaks a leg and be extremely slow or will fatally bleed out in like 20 seconds. Because right now, I'm seeing the spear nerf being bad, primarily because people throw them to hunt (also why I suggested javelins earlier because it seems that's what people use spears for 90% of the time). 

Then it wouldn't really matter how much less damage it does, as long as it hits that threshold that will either simplify hunting it by slowing it until you can catch it and finish it off or just having to find its corpse nearby after it runs off and bleeds out. 

It would also mean hunters could meet that threshold with earlier weapons (and therefore do the hunting thing earlier), and blackguard would struggle with food even more, which is kind of in character.

i mean, i'd love to see a more fleshed out system that incorporates vitals, id be easily impressed by inspiration and depth of dwarf fortress in terms of body mechanics (no hp, track blood level, lose it all and you're dead, destroying vitals = death or incapacitation like piercing a lung would incur a movement penalty, pain, trouble breathing and ultimately unconciousness or a brain destroyed and instantly dead) but i think the best we can hope for is a couple more hitboxes with crit potential. 

[LadyWYT]

22 minutes ago, Bumber said:

Are spears subject to tempering? Could you get an iron spear to the old bronze damage without a high chance of breaking it?

They can be tempered and quenched, yes. I've not played around with that mechanic yet, but as I understand it the first quench is basically a freebie, and it's only with successive quenches that the risk of breakage starts going up. Essentially, the more you push the quenching process, the more deadly the weapon can be, at the cost of potentially breaking the piece before you can finish it.

Already that gives spears an advantage over the bow, however, the bigger factor, after further thought, is the charge time, I think. In previous versions, it was possible to essentially chain-fire spears, getting off several shots before a target could close the distance. The charge time for spears though has been increased quite a lot, so I'm beginning to think that a player will only be able to get one, maybe two spear shots off before a target closes the distance.

1 hour ago, Chuckerton said:

It would also mean hunters could meet that threshold with earlier weapons (and therefore do the hunting thing earlier), and blackguard would struggle with food even more, which is kind of in character.

If you really want Blackguards to struggle with food in the early game more, a much better change would be making wild prey animals avoid approaching players, similar to how deer and goats already run away when you get too close. It already takes Blackguards an extra shot to kill a target at range compared to other classes, or two extra shots when compared to a hunter; requiring an extra shot on top of that is just going to discourage more players from even giving the class a try(which isn't really ideal). However, some lucrative prey animals, like boar and sheep, will let you walk right up to them...which means that a Blackguard can walk up with a bronze falx and kill a boar in about three hits, or otherwise do enough damage in melee to finish a fleeing target with a single spear. And some lucrative prey animals, like male deer and rams, are easy to bait into charging you, so you can fight in melee instead of needing to hunt at range.

By changing prey animals to notice players a little more easily though, and have them move away as the player approaches, that prevents Blackguards from exploiting the AI quite so much and pushes them to actually need to rely on ranged weapons if they're going to be doing much hunting, as well as makes hunting a little more interesting for all classes in general. That is, the animals can potentially die a little more easily to ranged weapons, but you're not going to be able to set up a good shot if you're giving them advance warning by running around through the bushes and otherwise making a spectacle of yourself.

[CastIronFabric]

14 hours ago, Chuckerton said:

From what i can see reading the discussion, I think really this is less of a problem of spears being nerfed and more of a problem of hunting being kind of unfun and spears being the "meta". "Chase this deer across a field for a day" is fun, once. If hunting was a bit more... deliberate, I don't think we would be having this conversation. What I think is that dealing above a threshold of damage in one hit should do some kind of "critical injury", like if you do x damage in one hit, the animal breaks a leg and be extremely slow or will fatally bleed out in like 20 seconds. Because right now, I'm seeing the spear nerf being bad, primarily because people throw them to hunt (also why I suggested javelins earlier because it seems that's what people use spears for 90% of the time). 

Then it wouldn't really matter how much less damage it does, as long as it hits that threshold that will either simplify hunting it by slowing it until you can catch it and finish it off or just having to find its corpse nearby after it runs off and bleeds out. 

It would also mean hunters could meet that threshold with earlier weapons (and therefore do the hunting thing earlier), and blackguard would struggle with food even more, which is kind of in character.

Just so everyone understands.

Leather making is not possible until you have cooper.

Fishing easily provides all the meat one could want in the early game, arguably even up to mid game (for meat only)

Speaking personally I usually do not even go hunting anyway until I have copper spears and that is in the previous versions.

I am not sure but I think 3 hits with a copper spear kills a pig, I think 3 hits with a copper spear still kills a pig.

What am I missing or am incorrect one?

[LadyWYT]

7 minutes ago, CastIronFabric said:

I am not sure but I think 3 hits with a copper spear kills a pig, I think 3 hits with a copper spear still kills a pig.

I'll try to test it later, but I'd wager it depends on the class in question, and how the pig is being attacked with the spear. I want to say that in 1.21 it took 4 melee hits with a copper spear for a Blackguard to kill a pig.

[MKMoose]

24 minutes ago, LadyWYT said:

32 minutes ago, CastIronFabric said:

I am not sure but I think 3 hits with a copper spear kills a pig, I think 3 hits with a copper spear still kills a pig.

I'll try to test it later, but I'd wager it depends on the class in question, and how the pig is being attacked with the spear. I want to say that in 1.21 it took 4 melee hits with a copper spear for a Blackguard to kill a pig.

A pig has 15 health, so, with a copper spear which has 2.75 melee damage and 4.25 thrown damage, it should take:

• in melee, 5/6/7 hits for a Blackguard/commoner/hunter,
• when thrown, 5/4/3 hits for a Blackguard/commoner/hunter, up from 4/3/3 in the current stable.

Edited February 10 by MKMoose

[Ravensblade]

15 hours ago, Chuckerton said:

From what i can see reading the discussion, I think really this is less of a problem of spears being nerfed and more of a problem of hunting being kind of unfun and spears being the "meta". "Chase this deer across a field for a day" is fun, once. If hunting was a bit more... deliberate, I don't think we would be having this conversation.

Actually right now hunting part is not so bad. The bloodtrail mod is enough to make it less random, as you can track fleeing animal, and i would love for base game to have similar mechanic. My main problem with hunting is ridiculous amount of sinkholes and caves in the ground. I wouldn't mind if it was simply one biome, but almost all biomes are riddled with them, and running animals love to go in them. So deer hunting become cave diving. 

And that's unfun part for me. I need to run around area, plug all the holes, and then i can actually hunt.

As for spears I switched to arrows when i got to iron as I can 4 hit deer. You use only 2 slots and you get 9 arrows from one ingot. I just carry single spear as i find it more comfortable against bears.

Edited February 10 by Ravensblade

[Thorfinn]

Hunting is not bad at all. Maybe it's even too easy. Yes, including just flint. Hard stone, dunno. You put one spear into a deer, it runs, you stand still and watch where it goes, it lays down somewhere on the bearing it was headed, you follow it carefully, put another spear into it at outside it's sense range (20, maybe?), repeat. Not difficult at all. Even vanilla.

[Thorfinn]

1 hour ago, CastIronFabric said:

Leather making is not possible until you have cooper.

Spose that's true now. Used to be you could find a trader wagon with a barrel. If wagons still exist, I have not found one yet.

[EDIT]

Or do you mean the quern? That's been the case the last couple versions, hasn't it? Unless you luck out with vessels or traders, I suppose.

Edited February 10 by Thorfinn

[LadyWYT]

4 minutes ago, Thorfinn said:

Hunting is not bad at all. Maybe it's even too easy. Yes, including just flint. Hard stone, dunno. You put one spear into a deer, it runs, you stand still and watch where it goes, it lays down somewhere on the bearing it was headed, you follow it carefully, put another spear into it at outside it's sense range (20, maybe?), repeat. Not difficult at all. Even vanilla.

Definitely agree. While the rocket boars were a bug, it was a bit of an interesting prospect to have the target up and escape. Granted, once you figured out what was going on, it was easy enough to track down the boar and finish it off. Likewise, the occasional target will still sometimes escape, even with a mod like Bloodtrail that adds a tracking mechanic.

I don't know that targets should be able to escape more often, at least not when injured. But it does seem fair to make it harder to approach wild animals, or at least make them flee when a shot misses and not just when the shot actually hits them. 

[CastIronFabric]

2 hours ago, LadyWYT said:

I'll try to test it later, but I'd wager it depends on the class in question, and how the pig is being attacked with the spear. I want to say that in 1.21 it took 4 melee hits with a copper spear for a Blackguard to kill a pig.

I am a commoner and I just killed a boar with two hits using a copper spear on v1.22

Both hits I was crouched, however,  the second time I did it, it took three hits because one time I threw it I was standing. It takes a lot longer for the spear to get is targeting down but at the same times its more accurate (meaning less need to compensate for throw).

It might be a good idea to try out the features before investing too much time in diagnosing them in my opinon.

[CastIronFabric]

2 hours ago, MKMoose said:

A pig has 15 health, so, with a copper spear which has 2.75 melee damage and 4.25 thrown damage, it should take:

• in melee, 5/6/7 hits for a Blackguard/commoner/hunter,
• when thrown, 5/4/3 hits for a Blackguard/commoner/hunter, up from 4/3/3 in the current stable.

I am currently playing the update and I killed a boar with a copper spear in two hits the first time, three hits the second time.

The difference between the two is that the first time I was crouched for each throw.

Now using a spear takes more work and patience than before because the aiming is slower and where to put the hitbox is more 'acurrate' (meaning less need to account for arc.

Like I said earlier, in my opinion it might be a good idea to play the game a bit before going too far into diagnosing it.

 

[CastIronFabric]

1 hour ago, Thorfinn said:

Spose that's true now. Used to be you could find a trader wagon with a barrel. If wagons still exist, I have not found one yet.

[EDIT]

Or do you mean the quern? That's been the case the last couple versions, hasn't it? Unless you luck out with vessels or traders, I suppose.

I have no idea, I just know I do not make leather until I get copper and limestone/chalk. I really am not clever enough to infer how other people do it without copper and lime

 

Edited February 10 by CastIronFabric

[MKMoose]

7 minutes ago, CastIronFabric said:

I am currently playing the update and I killed a boar with a copper spear in two hits the first time, three hits the second time.

[...]

Like I said earlier, in my opinion it might be a good idea to play the game a bit before going too far into diagnosing it.

Assuming you're throwing the spear, then my diagnosis is that you've just gotten a double-hit once or twice (notice that I said "hits", not "throws", so my earlier calculations remain accurate).

Edited February 10 by MKMoose

[CastIronFabric]

1 hour ago, MKMoose said:

Assuming you're throwing the spear, then my diagnosis is that you've just gotten a double-hit once or twice (notice that I said "hits", not "throws", so my earlier calculations remain accurate).

When it comes to proportion I do not think it matters.I am also on Explorer mode but again, proportion matters more than anything else.

What do I mean by that? Well in previous versions it took about 3 hits on a pig to kill it, now it takes me about 3 hits on a pig to kill it (although how to hit requires more patience) . So, if in your world it takes 5 hits, then it would be reasonable to assume its 5 hits now. Same is true if you do not throw it and instead use it as melee, whatever it was before the update appears to be likely the same now (at least for copper and for animals in the same hitpoint range as a pig). Additionally I heard there is something called 'critical hit' and I am not sure how that mechanics works.

I am playing the update currently, I know some people are not and that is reasonable I totally get that, but I might be able to provide insight to the game experience by playing it in a way that others who are not playing it might not be able to provide. That is not to say I am 100% accurate, I am just saying I am playing the game if you know what I mean.

also, keep in mind all this stuff is subject to change at a moments notice and if I had to guess they would factor in feedback from discord before inspecting the forums for feedback. That is not to say they would ignore the forums or even to suggest its intentional, its just discord is where they live the most when it comes to updates, bug reports etc so they will see that feedback first.

Edited February 10 by CastIronFabric

[Xangi]

Having just picked this game up, I'd say the real issue with hunting is just that blood loss/exhaustion doesn't exist without a mod, and certain small animals have too much health. Like, there is no way on earth that a raccoon should be able to survive ANY spear throw, period. It's just not big enough, it would be like you surviving a small-medium sized log through the torso and fleeing. If it was a rare thing it would be fine but every time is a bit nuts.

For larger animals, the lower initial hit damage would make sense if they took blood loss (leaving a trail) and slowly lost their ability to flee over time, perhaps counterbalanced with a further initial run distance so the hunting is more like "Find animal, throw spear/shoot, track over long distance to its hiding spot, finish off" instead of "Find animal, shoot, track for 40 blocks, shoot, track for 40 blocks... repeat until dead". This could also put some more room between spears and bows if done the right way.

Luckily there are mods to do most of this but I think it would be a good change for vanilla. Maybe with the status effects update, whenever that happens.

[MKMoose]

3 hours ago, Thorfinn said:

Hunting is not bad at all. Maybe it's even too easy.

Note that hunting being difficult is really not the problem, and I don't even recall seeing a single complaint about it just being difficult. The vast majority of feedback on hunting, for example the above post or this recent post, focuses on it being annoying, unrealistic, unrewarding, janky, unimmersive and a couple other qualities in that vein, if worded more or less subtly.

 

56 minutes ago, Xangi said:

Like, there is no way on earth that a raccoon should be able to survive ANY spear throw, period.

It's rare that a single hit outright kills an animal unless it's very well-placed, and even less common to kill right on the spot with no flight, even for small animals, since that usually requires brain or nerve damage. Even when hit quite accurately, there's good chance that the spear will not pin it and it will bolt, and hitting it this way in the first place is a challenge in itself.

But that said, there is no realm where damage having zero effect on an animal's state besides behavior can be considered realistic or satisfying. Hunting fundamentally relies on ambush and pursuit, especially prehistorically, but that dynamic is nearly nonexistent in Vintage Story at the moment. The distance at which animals notice the player is also much lower than it should realistically be, especially for boars. I'm not expecting significant improvements in this area until 1.23, though, and the current state is at least tolerable and can be supplemented with mods if needed.

[CastIronFabric]

13 minutes ago, MKMoose said:

Note that hunting being difficult is really not the problem, and I don't even recall seeing a single complaint about it just being difficult. The vast majority of feedback on hunting, for example the above post or this recent post, focuses on it being annoying, unrealistic, unrewarding, janky, unimmersive and a couple other qualities in that vein, if worded more or less subtly.

 

It's rare that a single hit outright kills an animal unless it's very well-placed, and even less common to kill right on the spot with no flight, even for small animals, since that usually requires brain or nerve damage. Even when hit quite accurately, there's good chance that the spear will not pin it and it will bolt, and hitting it this way in the first place is a challenge in itself.

But that said, there is no realm where damage having zero effect on an animal's state besides behavior can be considered realistic or satisfying. Hunting fundamentally relies on ambush and pursuit, especially prehistorically, but that dynamic is nearly nonexistent in Vintage Story at the moment. The distance at which animals notice the player is also much lower than it should realistically be, especially for boars. I'm not expecting significant improvements in this area until 1.23, though, and the current state is at least tolerable and can be supplemented with mods if needed.

how you hunt now is different (at least with spears) its really hard to describe or infer without playing it.

The hitbox icon takes much longer to come to center, if you are crouched and put your target right on the animal (not above it for arc) then you will likely hit and do that no more than 3 times and you got a pig. BUT it feels like running after the first strike is unwise, instead you have to follow and sneak.

At least that is how I did it.

point being, its different now. I enjoy hunting in vintage story even before this change. I do not know how 'realistic' is it I just know I find it engaging  and satifying. More over, I do not think the devs should spend too much time on hunting/combat. There are other things I personally think more important to focus on.

Edited February 10 by CastIronFabric

[CastIronFabric]

1 hour ago, Xangi said:

Having just picked this game up, I'd say the real issue with hunting is just that blood loss/exhaustion doesn't exist without a mod, and certain small animals have too much health. Like, there is no way on earth that a raccoon should be able to survive ANY spear throw, period. It's just not big enough, it would be like you surviving a small-medium sized log through the torso and fleeing. If it was a rare thing it would be fine but every time is a bit nuts.

For larger animals, the lower initial hit damage would make sense if they took blood loss (leaving a trail) and slowly lost their ability to flee over time, perhaps counterbalanced with a further initial run distance so the hunting is more like "Find animal, throw spear/shoot, track over long distance to its hiding spot, finish off" instead of "Find animal, shoot, track for 40 blocks, shoot, track for 40 blocks... repeat until dead". This could also put some more room between spears and bows if done the right way.

Luckily there are mods to do most of this but I think it would be a good change for vanilla. Maybe with the status effects update, whenever that happens.

I am not a hunter in real life, I know hunters and I live among a lot of wildlife animals in a forest so I might have 'some' insight into this but not as much as a hunter would.

If a deer is hit, it is true they would bleed, leave a trail etc. I do not think however they make a beeline to their 'hiding spot'. Deer specifically do not even have a home/nest/hole at all, they wonder and lay in the bushes. As such I think the way it is, makes more sense then the way you are describing it could be.

HAVING SAID THAT, I think its also fair to put fun game play ahead of realism 

[LadyWYT]

5 minutes ago, CastIronFabric said:

Deer specifically do not even have a home/nest/hole at all, they wonder and lay in the bushes.

To my knowledge, that is their "home", as it were. They'll find various spots to lie down and sleep, or that otherwise serve as shelter from the weather and predators. I would even say that's just standard creature behavior. Even livestock will have their favorite spots out in the pasture to hang out for shelter.

 

9 minutes ago, CastIronFabric said:

I do not think however they make a beeline to their 'hiding spot'.

This part I'm not so sure about, but I think the creature's first instinct is going to be to RUN if it has that option, and once it's escaped it's probably going to try to hang around in known safe areas if it's wounded. So making a beeline to a known safe spot isn't entirely out of the question.

 

36 minutes ago, MKMoose said:

But that said, there is no realm where damage having zero effect on an animal's state besides behavior can be considered realistic or satisfying. Hunting fundamentally relies on ambush and pursuit, especially prehistorically, but that dynamic is nearly nonexistent in Vintage Story at the moment. The distance at which animals notice the player is also much lower than it should realistically be, especially for boars. I'm not expecting significant improvements in this area until 1.23, though, and the current state is at least tolerable and can be supplemented with mods if needed.

I would say the current hunting is okay for the current state of the game. It's not incredibly realistic nor is it particularly in-depth, but there's enough there to make it a bit interesting without making it incredibly overpowered. By the latter I mean that the player can't just hunt one large creature and be set for months when it comes to food, nor is hunting so strong that livestock becomes entirely unappealing.

That being said, I do agree that it could be better, since just tailing a target for a couple of minutes as you whittle it down with spears/arrows isn't exactly the most interesting thing to do. I don't think we'll see too much change to hunting though until the implementation of a status effect system, as there's just so many suggestions about improving hunting that fall into that category. One thing I would definitely like to see though...more hunting trophies! I want to be able to hang the specific creature pelts on the walls, or use them as rugs, or have taxidermied creatures to decorate with in addition to the antlers and horns. The new fish trophies and unique fox/raccoon/bear pelts are a welcome step in that direction.

[Maelstrom]

15 minutes ago, CastIronFabric said:

I am not a hunter in real life, I know hunters and I live among a lot of wildlife animals in a forest so I might have 'some' insight into this but not as much as a hunter would.

If a deer is hit, it is true they would bleed, leave a trail etc.

Humor me in a humorous digression.

An old coworker of mine went hunting with a friend of his who was on the USA Olypmic marksmen team.  On the day of the storied event they were hunting caribeasts at dusk and one was grazing all nice and profile on a ridge some fair distance away.  Said marksman shot said caribeast which looked up momentarily in surprise before resuming it's grazing.  A third member of the hunting party proclaimed the marksman had missed and the marksman objected, "There is no freaking way I missed the side of that barn!!!" then proceeded to plug it again to prove his skill.  Again the caribeast looked up in surprise and decided to walk away.  As it turned away from said hunting party, the silouhette against the clear sky could be seen two streams of blood squirting out from it's sides.  After a handful of squirts the beast fell over dead due to blood loss.

[LadyWYT]

@Maelstrom I'd believe it, given some hunting stories that I've heard. To be fair, hunting stories are similar to fishing stories, but there's often a nugget of truth in the mix somewhere.

I've also heard that pronghorn antelope can run for quite a while despite being mortally wounded. 

[CastIronFabric]

49 minutes ago, LadyWYT said:

To my knowledge, that is their "home", as it were. They'll find various spots to lie down and sleep, or that otherwise serve as shelter from the weather and predators. I would even say that's just standard creature behavior. Even livestock will have their favorite spots out in the pasture to hang out for shelter.

 

This part I'm not so sure about, but I think the creature's first instinct is going to be to RUN if it has that option, and once it's escaped it's probably going to try to hang around in known safe areas if it's wounded. So making a beeline to a known safe spot isn't entirely out of the question.

 

I would say the current hunting is okay for the current state of the game. It's not incredibly realistic nor is it particularly in-depth, but there's enough there to make it a bit interesting without making it incredibly overpowered. By the latter I mean that the player can't just hunt one large creature and be set for months when it comes to food, nor is hunting so strong that livestock becomes entirely unappealing.

That being said, I do agree that it could be better, since just tailing a target for a couple of minutes as you whittle it down with spears/arrows isn't exactly the most interesting thing to do. I don't think we'll see too much change to hunting though until the implementation of a status effect system, as there's just so many suggestions about improving hunting that fall into that category. One thing I would definitely like to see though...more hunting trophies! I want to be able to hang the specific creature pelts on the walls, or use them as rugs, or have taxidermied creatures to decorate with in addition to the antlers and horns. The new fish trophies and unique fox/raccoon/bear pelts are a welcome step in that direction.

right, Deer do not have a den/nest so I am unclear where a deer would run to in that persons example 'to its hiding spot'. The hiding spot would be the nearest place to hide at the point of where they are standing.

I think maybe if a person who has done some real hunting that would be best indicator rather than my observations of real wildlife given where I live and I see it every day.

[CastIronFabric]

22 minutes ago, Maelstrom said:

Humor me in a humorous digression.

An old coworker of mine went hunting with a friend of his who was on the USA Olypmic marksmen team.  On the day of the storied event they were hunting caribeasts at dusk and one was grazing all nice and profile on a ridge some fair distance away.  Said marksman shot said caribeast which looked up momentarily in surprise before resuming it's grazing.  A third member of the hunting party proclaimed the marksman had missed and the marksman objected, "There is no freaking way I missed the side of that barn!!!" then proceeded to plug it again to prove his skill.  Again the caribeast looked up in surprise and decided to walk away.  As it turned away from said hunting party, the silouhette against the clear sky could be seen two streams of blood squirting out from it's sides.  After a handful of squirts the beast fell over dead due to blood loss.

sorry I have absolutely no idea what you are saying here or what it has to do with my observation to be fair.