Player progression skills ect..= Bad!!

[ug_windwalker]

I just read the road map and i was dismayed and disheartened when i read that player progression is planned. In my humble opinion, i think this would be bad. One of the things that drew me to this game was the absence of a system of that locks off the players ability to come in day one and basically do and build what ever they like as long as they can find the materials. I have always thought "skill progression" is the bane of survival game enthusiasts. It's something that is put up with because it seems that every survival game does it to some extent. I understand the logic behind it in being "not everyone knows how to build a fire or shelter" . Well some of us do. Please do not lock the ability to play the game behind artificial barriers called "skills".

Edited March 10, 2021 by ug_windwalker

[l33tmaan]

Do you even know what kind of progression they're going to do? Because I don't.

[ug_windwalker]

From the Roadmap....

• Player Progression System (Leveling,  Gear Attributes, Skills)

[ug_windwalker]

From the number of Survival games i've played this usually means you can't build this shiny thing until your skill is x number. In my opinion this tends to make games grindy by hiding content behind arbitrary and artificial inhibiters. Man I hope this isn't the case with VS.

[l33tmaan]

That sounds... terrible. Why would someone do that for any reason other than to unnecessarily pad out their game? I doubt you'll have to worry about that.
It'd better not become an issue.

[Jobediah Timberman]

I would be very surprised if Tyron had any intention of implementing this concept poorly. So far every other decision he's made seems to be the right choice.

For one thing, there's already enough ways of controlling progression, so that concept is being handled properly so far. First by having to craft a Pickaxe just to get more Copper, and then getting enough Copper to create an Anvil just to make a Saw. That's already enough of a barrier that needing to be a certain skill would be redundant.

If anything, a leveling and skill system provides ways of achieving things faster, rather than blocking things behind arbitrary walls. If you focus entirely on mining, for instance, you might wind up with high tier tools in half the time. 

 

There's actually a mod for this already, and I quite like how it's handling the concept so far. Xandu has done a great job with XLeveling and XSkills, and with some fine-tuning, I feel it could become the official system, or at least the basic framework for it.

He's designed it so the player can earn abilities, such as randomly receiving a full stone block when mining, which naturally eliminates a lot of grinding. I mention that one in particular because it seems too generous at the moment. I have harvested quite a few full stones without ever doing any checkerboard quarrying to get them. But that did take a very large amount of time and energy spent on mining, so it's definitely an appropriate reward, once it's adjusted to be fair and balanced. 

Everything about it enhances the game as far as I'm concerned. Realistically, if you spend enough time doing anything, you're going to do it better and more efficiently. Eventually, every tree branch you chop will usually give some amount of sticks or saplings, for instance. I can't imagine this game without something like that, because it will keep the early and mid-game activities fresh and enjoyable, instead of tedious and monotonous. 

 

I feel the general rule is that almost every player will eventually get tired of doing the same thing repeatedly, or especially having to go back to such tasks all throughout mid- and late-game. So activities that are required early game should eventually not be needed much, or even at all.

When a player who's reached late or end-game finally goes back to start a brand new game, they should genuinely look forward to "the good ol' days" when they used to have to knap their tools all the time. Same goes for those who reach automated smithing. After a while, manual smithing should be something you actually miss doing, rather than "oh great, not this again". 

In the end, we're dealing with a sandbox game with 1 million x 1 million blocks, there's really no end to how much you can build, or how much time you can spend on one world. Why put in extra barriers and frustrating limitations when there's basically no limitations anyway? Of course there needs to be progress to get to the point of building a giant castle, but once you've done that, there's nothing stopping you from building another. And there's a chance that someone might not want to do that, unless all their work resulted in skill levels that make the next castle half as difficult. 

Anyway, to re-iterate what l33tman said, I don't think there's reason to worry about artificial padding. Even at this point in development, there's already such a vast range of genuinely amazing content, and much more if you count all the community mods, so it could take dozens or even hundreds of hours for a new player to experience it all. 

[Ari]

There are already a couple of "skills" in the game tied to the profession you choose at the start. I'm not a fan, personally. For example, there's a type of bow you can craft without flax but only if you chose the right profession at the start of the game, otherwise it's locked off to you forever. These things might make sense on a large multiplayer server but in single player it just means there are things you can never do. However, I'm sure Tyron will take player feedback into account when implementing anything more like that.

[vurt]

A skill system where you get better by doing is a great system imo. that way your character organically grows.

[s7ana]

I share your concerns but the opposite is also true that it could be different than what we thought. There's also the fact that honestly there isn't a need for making placing/crafting/etc require skill to be X since that's already handled by the progression of what's already in-game. Could just be something like getting better at sneaking [Max skill lowers sneak detection range by 25%.], sprint speed (Or use less energy.) or increase range weapon accuracy (But not damage.). Basically your character learns how to do something better.

Edited March 13, 2021 by s7ana

[Sunbather]

14 hours ago, vurt said:

A skill system where you get better by doing is a great system imo. that way your character organically grows.

If this is meant by player progression, I am all for it, too. When I am out there hunting with a spear all the time, I should be getting slightly (!) more damage with it over time because I learn what parts to better hit, I internalize the weight and the flight of the spear etc. It makes your character grow "organically" like you said.

 

On 3/11/2021 at 11:49 AM, Ari said:

There are already a couple of "skills" in the game tied to the profession you choose at the start. I'm not a fan, personally. For example, there's a type of bow you can craft without flax but only if you chose the right profession at the start of the game, otherwise it's locked off to you forever. These things might make sense on a large multiplayer server but in single player it just means there are things you can never do. However, I'm sure Tyron will take player feedback into account when implementing anything more like that.

If you want to be a jack of all trades (and a master of none), you could always choose being a commoner. Regarding the crude bow: I have chosen the Hunter class for my first playthrough and I think the bow only gives you a very slight advantage since it is very bad in damage output. I have yet to kill anything with it because even a hare needs 2 arrow hits or more. At the same time, my melee damage is reduced by 15 percent but has become (had to become) my main hunting strategy. So it is imo a bit exaggerated to say that the crude bow is such a big thing to miss out on.

I also think that you should be able to specialize your character even further, hence the character progression in the sense @vurt interprets it would benefit any furtther specialization.

Edited March 13, 2021 by Jeb_X

[l33tmaan]

I don't like that only the hunter gets to make crude bows, but I also think the bow system in general is kind of a placeholder right now. I've seen recurve bows in the code, but they're clearly not in yet. Hopefully one day ranged weapons are as complicated to make as melee ones. You could give them quite a large damage buff or a bleed effect to compensate for the increased tedium.

[Plum]

Hiya!

I'm all for it...as long as it's mostly cosmetic "goodies" for having high skill in something.

What I mean is, if I can find materials to build something, I should be able too; I better not need "Skill level 15 to build this item". Well, actually, that'd be cool for SOME games...so put it in "Options" (re: "Skill Options: Cosmetic Only // Material Use Limited // Material and Schematic Limited", or something like that). However, being able to change the colour/look of something due to a Skill Level would be kinda neat (e.g., "Axe Level 5; you can choose between 2 different Axe looks; Axe Level 10, you get another choice; etc..."; basically, allowing you a sort of 'pre-determined chiseled-look' without having to do any actual chiseling).

But having the game pop up a "You are now Level 17 in Axe!" is an endorphin releasing notice that gives me warm fuzzies...even if it doesn't really DO anything; it lets me know, the player, how far along I've gone in regards to playing the game. It can give me something to shoot for ("Ok, I'm hitting Level 20 in Axe today if it kills me!" ).

Paul L. Ming

[Thalius]

I want to echo some of the responses in this post supporting the notion of player progression working in such a way that a player gets better at tasks that they preform often rather than any kind of a skill or stat point progression system.

Miners should be able to build a reasonable speed buff to mining activities over time, break whole blocks on occasion, acquire a slight boost to ore/stone mined.
Players that use ranged weapons a lot should become more accurate with more experience, and start acquiring critical hits.
That sort of thing.

As for players starting out with a certain class- I am torn on the idea of some classes being able to craft some items that others never will never have access to.  I do however like the idea of a particular class having a bonus or hindrance in certain skill areas, as long as a player can still improve in all areas with time and experience.

For example:

Hunters start out with a bonus, an affinity, you might say, for ranged weapon use. This class should also gain experience in ranged weapon use faster than in other areas.  Hunters get a negative hit on skills related to working underground and should gain mining experience more slowly, but they should still be able to build up their mining skills and max them out eventually- it would just take them longer. Maybe a lot longer, but they could get the skill maxed out eventually if they wanted to work at it.

Being a hunter should not prevent me from also becoming a great miner, but mining should come to me more slowly.  You could say that I would have an affinity for hunting activities and naturally grow in knowledge in those areas faster as well as start out with an advantage in hunting related skills.

If player progression and skill acquisition works in this way, I'd be all for it. I am not too fond of the idea of abilities or crafting of items being locked behind a class or skill level.

And a last note regarding future combat/weapon skills- I hope that we don't end up with a flat "melee combat" skill.  I would hope that we could develop skills with regard to each weapon type that we may end up with.  Fighting with a two handed sword would be different than fighting with a shield and spear, or fighting with a battle axe.  I'd think there should be skills to develop with each. If weapons have different damage types, with mobs more vulnerable or resistant to various damage types as well, then players skilled in certain weapon types would have advantages and disadvantages against certain mobs based on the weapon skills they have acquired.

Just my thoughts on the subject, for what they are worth.

~TH~

Edited March 16, 2021 by Thalius

[AngryRob]

I have to disagree with the player progression being bad. 

I will use valheim as an example. I love that game, but i have raged quit two weeks ago, because i was stupid and got killed on a distant shore. My boat is there, my stuff are still there, and if i had friends i maybe could ask them to join my game and help me? 

Now with player progression, i really am not over in valheim now am I? i could start all over in a new world, and still keep my skills. Losing all my equipment is not a game breaking problem, i still have my skills. Also player progression means combat is NOT boring. Why fight? Why bother the drifters? just nerdpole and wait out the storms. With player progression those storms go from being a nuisance and unfun, to being an important opportunity to administer beatings and get good.

 

Locking recipes behind skill perks is not fun, but having a demonstrateable combat skill improvement, mining improvement, and maybe even an ability to lick rocks to prospect would be great. 

[6nop6nop]

maybe it will just be like skyrim where it means your weapons do 20% more damage

[l33tmaan]

Nothing should try to emulate Skyrim's progression system. Ever.

[AngryRob]

16 hours ago, l33tmaan said:

Nothing should try to emulate Skyrim's progression system. Ever.

You knock skyrim's progression system, but i remember morrowind and oblivion. Those were fun games yes, but the skyrim's progression system was an improvement. it made power leveling unnecessary. Oblivion had a serious fundamental problem, and if you did not power level just right with micro management from the very beginning, then you were in for a bad time do the the level scaling enemies. 

 

Now, elona has the best progression system. i often forget that game has a main quest, with a decent story, because leveling is too fun in that game. Kenshi has a good progression system too. Now a hybrid system between fable and kenshi would possibly be the greatest system ever. One where every 3 points in an attribute raised the skills by 1 point, and every 5 points in a skill raised the attribute by 1. That would be the ultimate system if done correctly. 

[l33tmaan]

I will not entertain any positive comments on Skyrim's levelling system whatsoever. I know how bad Oblivion was. I do not care. It is an abomination and not to be emulated outside of the BROADEST strokes of "do things and you get better at them". Leveling up and getting +20% sword damage is the least interesting kind of advancement possible and is something VS should stay very, very far away from. 

This game's leveling system should be as divorced from numbers as possible. Give me new effects and attacks when I level up, not a boring, horrible damage boost. Kenshi has very similar issues in that you need to level up 20 times to have ANY visible effect on your character whatsoever.

I detest piecemeal advancement. I do not want +5% damage to swords, then +10% damage, then +15% damage. That is boring. It is bad. No game that isn't a pure RPG should be doing this. Damage boosts can be fine as part of something else, but on their own they're the laziest kind of design possible.

Edited April 28, 2021 by l33tmaan

[Thalius]

2 hours ago, l33tmaan said:

I will not entertain any positive comments on Skyrim's levelling system whatsoever. I know how bad Oblivion was. I do not care. It is an abomination and not to be emulated outside of the BROADEST strokes of "do things and you get better at them". Leveling up and getting +20% sword damage is the least interesting kind of advancement possible and is something VS should stay very, very far away from. 

This game's leveling system should be as divorced from numbers as possible. Give me new effects and attacks when I level up, not a boring, horrible damage boost. Kenshi has very similar issues in that you need to level up 20 times to have ANY visible effect on your character whatsoever.

I detest piecemeal advancement. I do not want +5% damage to swords, then +10% damage, then +15% damage. That is boring. It is bad. No game that isn't a pure RPG should be doing this. Damage boosts can be fine as part of something else, but on their own they're the laziest kind of design possible.

A thousand times yes to this.

[AngryRob]

13 hours ago, l33tmaan said:

I will not entertain any positive comments on Skyrim's levelling system whatsoever. I know how bad Oblivion was. I do not care. It is an abomination and not to be emulated outside of the BROADEST strokes of "do things and you get better at them". Leveling up and getting +20% sword damage is the least interesting kind of advancement possible and is something VS should stay very, very far away from. 

This game's leveling system should be as divorced from numbers as possible. Give me new effects and attacks when I level up, not a boring, horrible damage boost. Kenshi has very similar issues in that you need to level up 20 times to have ANY visible effect on your character whatsoever.

I detest piecemeal advancement. I do not want +5% damage to swords, then +10% damage, then +15% damage. That is boring. It is bad. No game that isn't a pure RPG should be doing this. Damage boosts can be fine as part of something else, but on their own they're the laziest kind of design possible.

I keep forgetting that the combat in kenshi that i enjoy is because of the 50 combat animation mods. I have not even gotten into the weirdness that is the japanese mod market where they sell mods there because of the weird laws there. That's where conjoh took his mods too.  

The drifters do a good job telegraphing attacks, so it appears a better combat system is possible, if not already in the works. Hopefully one with counters and blocks. 

So psychadelic skills? See this is where things get weird because normally skill stats were in turn based games to determine success. But this is not a turn based game. So maybe apply real world concepts like learning curve and six sigma? Where the more you make an item, the better you are at it? so this would translate to higher durability in items. Knapping, pottery, and other things should be left untouched. Those are not really mini games but are a mechanic. removing them removes the fun. Making scale armor is a mark of skill and patience as well as wealth. 

 I would also argue that there should not be feats for finding ore, because the exploration is also a core mechanic. 

On the flip side animal and plant whisper skills, where you can harvest more meat, and convince animals to follow you home, would not break the game, but enhance it. Also a tracking skill that would tell you what animals are where would be interesting. one where you could find bees at higher levels. 

Now on the flip side is armor. Wearing and moving in armor should increase your movement speed over time as you are used to wearing it, as well as acrobatics. if you keep falling a million times, then you should eventually get better at it. 

As for gear attributes, see my engraving and blood runes suggestion.... 

Edited April 29, 2021 by AngryRob

[AngryRob]

Instead of skills via numbers, what if skills were crafted from a resource? Have two inventories, the physical inventory, and the MENTAL inventory. You generate stories as you: travel, farm, mine, fight, and craft. Not all experiences generate the same story. Failing at the anvil may generate a story of frustration, getting hurt bad generates a tale of terror, seeing a ruin is a story of sadness. 

Then, to craft skill points and feats, you sit down and it opens a special crafting menu. 

[Game Nerd]

On 3/11/2021 at 5:49 AM, Ari said:

There are already a couple of "skills" in the game tied to the profession you choose at the start. I'm not a fan, personally. For example, there's a type of bow you can craft without flax but only if you chose the right profession at the start of the game, otherwise it's locked off to you forever. These things might make sense on a large multiplayer server but in single player it just means there are things you can never do. However, I'm sure Tyron will take player feedback into account when implementing anything more like that.

I like them, you get advantages to what you spend doing the most

 

 

[AngryRob]

I am starting to realize that i don't always complete my thoughts online.... Not sure if getting old or drain bamage.

But yeah, you generate stories, they go in your mental inventory, and you craft skill points when you sit down in a chair or lay down in a bed. For extra fun, you can trade stories with a trader, and for added artistic license this sounds like a duet where the player character sings a song, then the trader sings a different song. people near by can also get both stories, if they are close enough to hear. 

[Game Nerd]

On 3/9/2021 at 11:27 PM, ug_windwalker said:

I just read the road map and i was dismayed and disheartened when i read that player progression is planned. In my humble opinion, i think this would be bad. One of the things that drew me to this game was the absence of a system of that locks off the players ability to come in day one and basically do and build what ever they like as long as they can find the materials. I have always thought "skill progression" is the bane of survival game enthusiasts. It's something that is put up with because it seems that every survival game does it to some extent. I understand the logic behind it in being "not everyone knows how to build a fire or shelter" . Well some of us do. Please do not lock the ability to play the game behind artificial barriers called "skills".

I haven't heard it yet, but there a podcast about it.

https://boardgamedesignlab.com/skill-barriers-in-games-with-jeff-fraser/