Developer; i heard you're not keen on getting Vintage Story to Steam, but hear this out, please

[Maelstrom]

12 hours ago, Khornet said:

In fact, the only sensible anti-Steam argument to me is the lack of leverage on the refund policy, which means Steam gets to decide who gets the refunds, not Tyron.

Tyron has a pretty liberal return policy.  Considering that the home page records over 1,000 copies sold each month seems like the team is doing well enough.

There's also this from the home page:
 

Quote

 Fair & Independent
No marketplace. No loot boxes. No microtransactions. No paid DLC. No hidden fees. No pay2win. No ads. No user data monetization. No software patents. No shareholders. No publisher. No NFTs. No BlockChain. No 3rd party interests.

 

[Khornet]

23 minutes ago, Maelstrom said:

 Fair & Independent
No marketplace. No loot boxes. No microtransactions. No paid DLC. No hidden fees. No pay2win. No ads. No user data monetization. No software patents. No shareholders. No publisher. No NFTs. No BlockChain. No 3rd party interests.

Not a single one of these points has to be compromised by the game going on Steam.

By the way, here's a comprehensive source of all technicalities related to being a Steam partner (Steamworks), if anyone cares. Linked specifically is their policy on selling Steam keys - emphasized, because this is the source of misinformation on price disparity between stores. You can't sell Steam keys cheaper outside of Steam, rather than the game itself: https://partner.steamgames.com/doc/features/keys

If anyone can find anything in there that proves me wrong, or paints Steam as the devil of PC gaming itself, feel free to point it out. Until then I stick to my opinion that the anti-Steam sentiment around here is completely irrational and is hurting VS in the long term.

Edited May 5, 2023 by Khornet

[Thorfinn]

15 hours ago, Khornet said:

Ok, I understand what you mean, you simply seem unaware that you're talking about Steam workshop and its peculiarities. Mods on Steam workshop - surprise - do require Steam, because that's often what the mod creators demand. It was, in fact, advertised as a feature for modders who don't want their mods "stolen" or "reuploaded without permission". If you want to use STEAM WORKSHOP content then you have to use the STEAM WORKSHOP.

Right. No idea where you got the idea I was saying anything else. There exist two parallel mod systems for any games that want mod support outside Steam. Why would any sane developer want to put the effort into maintaining two different systems? I thought you said development was slow enough already.

Personally, I don't mind the "glacial" progress. I generally have not taken in everything the game itself has to offer by the time the next release comes out, and certainly not all the variants on the theme that are available through mods. Mods which are not locked away depending on where you buy the game from, I'd add. 

15 hours ago, Khornet said:

I've no idea what to even do with this. Making a rational, factual, point of view is "Steam-atics"?

Good Lord, dude. Look at what's happened to Dwarf Fortress. The Steam version is sufficiently different that there are different versions of DFHack. The reviews are pathetic. Even a review with the single word "Dorf" was helpful to someone, which speaks volumes. Look through the negative comments and reviews. They are exactly what @Rhyagellecharacterizes them as. And what in exchange? Four minor revisions in the last 6 months, some of which have no more content than a single release candidate bugfix here. VS is doing considerably better than that. 

You know what would really suck about offering VS on Steam? I'd be afraid that many of the good modders would spend all their time on the Steam version and leave all of us who support Anego directly swinging in the breeze. They would be constantly satisfying the whiners on Steam and wouldn't have any time left over. Kind of like what is happening with DF.

Or look at Planet Crafter. The dev said the game would be progressing much faster if he didn't have to support two versions -- the Steam version and the one that everyone else uses.

How about instead of just claiming you make rational, factual arguments, you look at some actual facts?

Edited May 5, 2023 by Thorfinn

[Khornet]

33 minutes ago, Thorfinn said:

Why would any sane developer want to put the effort into maintaining two different systems? I thought you said development was slow enough already.

Again, this is on modders, not developers.  Last time I checked Tyron's not micro-managing the mods in the "vanilla" system either. Even if we go with your "two modding systems" claim - Steam workshop is OBVIOUSLY managed by STEAM.
I don't give a flying squirrel about mods, actually. I don't even know why I got myself roped into discussion about mods in this context (other than the preposterous statements about Steam's supposed handling thereof). Is Tyron developing the mods on the scene we have right now? No? Then how in the world would HIS development time for the vanilla VS be relevant here?

35 minutes ago, Thorfinn said:

The reviews are pathetic. 

Excuse me?

https://store.steampowered.com/app/975370/Dwarf_Fortress/

RECENT REVIEWS:

Very Positive (301)

ALL REVIEWS:

Overwhelmingly Positive (18,757)

38 minutes ago, Thorfinn said:

And what in exchange?

Oh, only money, success, and popularity, I guess. That's definitely not worth some marginal minority of negative/troll reviews.
 

47 minutes ago, Thorfinn said:

They would be constantly satisfying the whiners on Steam and wouldn't have any time left over.

This is again about modding which you seem fixated on, but I've made my statement on that.
You're obviously biased about the Steam community for reasons unknown. You've got no tangible arguments that they're "whiners" any more than any other player base out there - yes, review bombing IS a thing that's been done, but always for very specific, and very rare reasons, and in fact, there were methods introduced to prevent an abuse of this system. At the end of the day they're just normal customers - and they WILL buy Vintage Story if it's recommended to them through the algorithm.
Even an example you've brought earlier - Stardew Valley - is a prime example of a Steam success story. 

52 minutes ago, Thorfinn said:

Or look at Planet Crafter. The dev said the game would be progressing much faster if he didn't have to support two versions -- the Steam version and the one that everyone else uses.

I would need to see the source/ context for this, because I simply don't believe that's all there is to say on the matter. It's literally just a matter of uploading and pushing out another branch, although with the multitude of hotfixes VS receives regularly after a big patch, I imagine it might become somewhat tedious.

ConcernedApe of, again, Stardew Valley, is somewhere on record claiming in fact the opposite; that uploading and maintaining Steam branches was easier than anywhere else. But I can't find that source either, so...
On the other hand, why don't you ask the developer of Planet Crafter why he's bothering with maintaining two versions in the first place?

39 minutes ago, Thorfinn said:

How about instead of just claiming you make rational, factual arguments, you look at some actual facts?

See the absolutely preposterous statement you've made about DF's reviews above and apply yourself. And I'd also recommend you start attacking the arguments instead of the person making them.

[Thorfinn]

Mayhaps rather than going off half-cocked, take a look at Tyron's roadmap? Most of your objections are answered there. I get that maybe that's not your vision, but all you get to do is persuade Tyron that should not be his roadmap. Convince him that he should be following your vision rather than his. Though I suspect this will fall on deaf ears, pay close attention to his vision for mod support, which is one of the primary reasons I chose to give VS a whirl.

[EDIT]

See, though you don't like it, his vision is NOT to lock mods to the game away unless you buy from a specific vendor. His vision is to build the VS community, not to fragment it. Like it or not, since mods have a significant role in his vision for the game, that HAS to be part of the argument, even though it means your argument is a non-starter that you would rather not be forced to defend.

[/EDIT]

Re: DF reviews, I know most were positive and then some. Some for no good reason, but many were obviously long-time players, whose recommendation was simply that it was more accessible with a GUI. True, but doesn't VS already have one of those? Built-in mouse support, industry-standard WASD movement, remappable hotkeys if you don't like the defaults, even going above and beyond with built-in macros? So their reviews are basically saying that they are happy that DF now has what VS has long had?

 

Edited May 5, 2023 by Thorfinn

[Thorfinn]

1 hour ago, Khornet said:

On the other hand, why don't you ask the developer of Planet Crafter why he's bothering with maintaining two versions in the first place?

Sorry. Missed this. I already know one reason why. He doesn't put as much weight on the universality of mods that Tyron does. Or at least Tyron's roadmap does.

On Planet Crafter forum at GOG, he just said something like, "Sorry, I don't make the rules. If it is that important to you, just buy a copy from both GOG and Steam." Which sounds eerily like what you just said.

[Khornet]

2 hours ago, Thorfinn said:

Some for no good reason, but many were obviously long-time players, whose recommendation was simply that it was more accessible with a GUI. True, but doesn't VS already have one of those? Built-in mouse support, industry-standard WASD movement, remappable hotkeys if you don't like the defaults, even going above and beyond with built-in macros? So their reviews are basically saying that they are happy that DF now has what VS has long had?

I fail to see any argument here related to topic at hand. Seems like you're trying to move the goalpost from your utterly disproven "negative DF reviews prove that the Steam community is bad" argument to something irrelevant.

Just so we're clear: DF did get somewhat review-bombed on release. Do you know why? Because it had a niche community around it for long, long years that was OBSESSED with gatekeeping it from the bigger crowd. Sounds familiar?
DESPITE that, it was a tremendous success on Steam, and all the salty "hardcore" fans that couldn't stand the notions of filthy casuals being given improved graphics and a more friendly GUI were left with nothing but their salt. 

2 hours ago, Thorfinn said:

Mayhaps rather than going off half-cocked, take a look at Tyron's roadmap? Most of your objections are answered there.

Please quote me on these supposed "objections" of mine, because it appears you're more familiar with my opinions than I am. At no point did I object to the roadmap (that I'm familiar with). I only object to the preposterous misinformation regarding Steam as a platform. And the glacial speed of implementing said road map.

If this is about the following:

• Easy mod installation
• Advanced Mod Manager
• Official mod hub that integrates into the game and auto-mod download when connecting to a server (WIP)

Steam workshop is not an obstacle in doing all this. VS has its own launcher, and the presumed mod manager would be handled by the launcher. You can still inject the launcher when, well, launching the game's .exe via Steam.
If Steam workshop TRULY does seem like an obstacle in this, presumed, Tyron's vision of "open modability option" then he can opt out of the Steam workshop altogether. As the developer he gets to veto any content on the workshop at will. I understand he may not want to do that to not seem like an a**hole, but the option to politely redirect modders to, for example, here, is viable. Steam wouldn't care, because it doesn't hurt them financially.

Though I am reminding you for the third time; using the Steam workshop is largely modders' conscious choice. If anybody's "locking" the mods to Steam, it's the modders themselves. Respecting that choice and the choice of the developer lies within the tricky relationship between the modders and the developer. Not yours, or mine, or even Valve's.

2 hours ago, Thorfinn said:

His vision is to build the VS community, not to fragment it.

I see. And somehow expanding the community beyond its current niche to a grander size and audience is not "building" but "fragmenting" it. The cognitive dissonance should be hitting you soon.

[dakko]

I feel like I'm at Steam.

Tyron already expressed his reasoning. He may release on Steam in the future, but it doesn't fit with his plans right now.

The Steam culture would devolve into an argument over it in just the way that is occurring now, here, in this thread where opposing views are being disparaged. Can we please stop?

[Khornet]

18 hours ago, dakko said:

The Steam culture would devolve into an argument over it in just the way that is occurring now, here, in this thread where opposing views are being disparaged. Can we please stop?

This is a forum. Forums were made for debating. We are debating.
What do you even mean by "Steam culture"?

18 hours ago, dakko said:

Tyron already expressed his reasoning. He may release on Steam in the future, but it doesn't fit with his plans right now.

I made this point already. I'm aware of this. I have been for like the last 4 years. My main problem is with preposterous anti-Steam "arguments" that are either misinformation or complete falsehoods. If Tyron's surrounded by such opinions, shared by the community in general, then it's no wonder his game won't be on Steam.

Also, I'm sorry, but it's been an awful long amount of time since the "Steam dilemma" even begun (6 years? More?), and it seems to me like we're nowhere closer to its resolution. If VS truly does have the potential to be on the top of the charts, which might help Anego grow, then every year it hasn't been set on that path is a year wasted (at least financially).
I once again redirect any Steam skeptics to look at Terraria's start and end and tell me this isn't possible (or at least maybe on a smaller scale) for VS.

[dakko]

Discussion and debate are great. If the goal is to make more money in order to hire more help, you've made some good points.

However any other ideas/options are being disparaged as preposterous, illogical, silly, etc. or the result of some preconceived and unwarranted prejudice against Steam.

I'm just asking that we discuss and debate without being disparaging.

[Epihnea]

This debate is going nowhere - The devs are pointing to the Q&A section of this website - they will decide if they sell it or not on steam - Locking the Thread.