Developer; i heard you're not keen on getting Vintage Story to Steam, but hear this out, please

[Darude_Sandstorm]

If being on Steam gets you 43% more sales than not being on Steam, then the 30% pays for itself, even ignoring the saving in hosting and bandwidth costs. Everyone's free to make their own decisions of course, but "not putting game on Steam because the aim is to make more money" isn't a terribly reality-based position for anyone EA-sized and below.

This conversation started on GamingOnLinux.com https://www.gamingonlinux.com/2022/09/survival-game-vintage-story-adds-200-new-blocks-lightning-water-physics-update/

Please join the convo also there?

Thanks. I'm looking forward on trying the game for the first time, i would have earlier if it was on Steam for sure. It's just so simple clickety click on all platforms.

[l33tmaan]

No. The street cred for not being on Steam makes it all worth it.

[Darude_Sandstorm]

1 minute ago, l33tmaan said:

No. The street cred for not being on Steam makes it all worth it.

Whoa. Are you the developer of Vintage Story?

[Streetwind]

He's not, but this is a public forum. Anyone can add their opinion.

...Particularly since the Suggestions forum exists for the community to hash out ideas and concepts together. It is not a page-the-developer kind of deal.

A Steam release is a very commonly discussed topic, which is why there is a FAQ entry for it. That FAQ entry is the developer's response to you, which you are asking for. I'm sorry if that seems harsh - I don't want to dismiss you out of hand. But please understand that that is literally the purpose of a FAQ entry. It is a pre-written dev response targeted at people who want a dev response.

[TheBacon]

This game reminds me a lot of Rimworld, I was there since early on and the game was a niche, small community, eve smaller than this one. Once it hit Steam oh boy did it explode, it was a game of value but on its own it would need a miracle to ever reach anywhere close to level of popularity and visibility it did with Steam. Being on the top seller frontpage weeks in a row is no small deal.

Not only is that, is the fact of people who frown upon buying games off-steam, which I can tell by having introduced dozens of people to the game on past weeks, multiple times I get the "i'll buy when on steam". At that here's one important bit that I'd hope @Tyronconsiders, from the people I've gotten to check in a wide consensus is the game surpassing their expectations, that is, they see oh look minecraft clone then run into a game with depth on its mechanics, I'd really believe that a steam release with an introduction to the game sort of demo as some games do would be a massive win for the game's visibility and popularity. 

There's a FAQ response as there is and there will continue to be this constant request for reconsideration of that position. Like a permanent temporal storm  

 

Edited September 9, 2022 by TheBacon

[l33tmaan]

1 hour ago, TheBacon said:

Not only is that, is the fact of people who frown upon buying games off-steam, which I can tell by having introduced dozens of people to the game on past weeks, multiple times I get the "i'll buy when on steam". 

That's a horrible mindset. Don't put all your eggs in one basket.

[setne550]

I respect the devs decision for not putting their game in steam. It is up to them whenever they want to or not.

Besides tax problems are always a problem to someone who makes money especially for a gamedev.

[TheBacon]

On 9/9/2022 at 3:29 AM, l33tmaan said:

That's a horrible mindset. Don't put all your eggs in one basket.

I'd say it's the wallet credit too, several of the I'll wait when on steam peeps was because their money is on that wallet, Steam has much stronger payment methods adapted to where you live, I remember when CC or even Paypal wasn't an option for me and I didn't manage to buy several games because of that. Now for steam only had to go to a kiosk and gg.

Edited September 10, 2022 by TheBacon

[Azuli-Bluespots]

You just have to see the two biggest points here.

DRM-free, and you do have to crack some eggs for the online to work.

When you get past the online issues, there are literally no complaints to be had here.

[Rhyagelle]

If they don't want to deal with Steam and its taxes while still a small team and early(ish) in development, I support the dev 100%. Besides that, 90% of Steam people can't seem to understand what an early access game is and would inevitably become unreasonably angry at the slightest delay or problem. 

[AngryRob]

On 9/8/2022 at 10:29 PM, l33tmaan said:

That's a horrible mindset. Don't put all your eggs in one basket.

Right now steam is good, but what happens when Gabe Newell no longer runs the company? What happens if they decide to charge a monthly fee to use the launcher? There are a billion ways for these platforms to go south and start sucking. I hope it never happens but it is always a possibility. 

[Thorfinn]

Steam is really horrible in terms of mod support, though. You have to supply support for the way Steam wants things done, AND a parallel system for the way non-Steam needs to be done. Seen it cripple all kinds of games, since the priority has to become supporting Steam.

And big ditto to @Rhyagelle. I rarely look at Steam reviews anymore. You can't tell anything from it. Some people give good reviews to a lousy game to get more buyers, and presumably more development, but the majority are whiners panning a good game that just wasn't exactly what they wanted or the developers didn't add the kind of content they wanted fast enough. Comparing Steam reviews to GOG reviews is enlightening. Particularly since most developers seem to treat GOG buyers as the red-headed stepchild.

[TheBacon]

On 9/14/2022 at 2:38 AM, Thorfinn said:

Steam is really horrible in terms of mod support, though. You have to supply support for the way Steam wants things done, AND a parallel system for the way non-Steam needs to be done. Seen it cripple all kinds of games, since the priority has to become supporting Steam.

And big ditto to @Rhyagelle. I rarely look at Steam reviews anymore. You can't tell anything from it. Some people give good reviews to a lousy game to get more buyers, and presumably more development, but the majority are whiners panning a good game that just wasn't exactly what they wanted or the developers didn't add the kind of content they wanted fast enough. Comparing Steam reviews to GOG reviews is enlightening. Particularly since most developers seem to treat GOG buyers as the red-headed stepchild.

But Vintage already has its own system, it doesn't need to use the workshop for automated mod downloader as the server functionality supports it. I think games simply get into the workshop due to benefit that is centralizing mods, auto-updates, not hosting it themselves, etc.

Edited October 26, 2022 by TheBacon

[Thorfinn]

On 10/26/2022 at 6:46 AM, TheBacon said:

But Vintage already has its own system, it doesn't need to use the workshop for automated mod downloader as the server functionality supports it. I think games simply get into the workshop due to benefit that is centralizing mods, auto-updates, not hosting it themselves, etc.

I'm not a developer, but from what several devs have said over on GOG, Workshop support is mandatory, and is implemented in a way that it is not friendly to Nexus or other third-party mod systems. It's why games like The Planet Crafter are always a week or two behind at GOG, and some early access don't even bother with updates at GOG.

[Tuna Oddfellow]

On 10/26/2022 at 6:46 AM, TheBacon said:

But Vintage already has its own system, it doesn't need to use the workshop for automated mod downloader as the server functionality supports it. I think games simply get into the workshop due to benefit that is centralizing mods, auto-updates, not hosting it themselves, etc.

You don’t lose any of the features of the game including mod systems outside of steam, you simplify get more sales for the game.  I currently play vs on my Steam Deck but having it available in the Steam shop would expose the game to a wider audience 

[imperialwaltz]

I don't post often or really at all. But I think this is a bad idea. I think the Steam community is full of people wanting to change games to make them all like each other.
I think this game could use more marketing, yes, but I don't agree that putting it onto Steam is a good one.

I'd rather see it on ~GOG~ or something fitter for a company like this that isn't going to get the short end of the stick Edited April 15, 2023 by imperialwaltz
I didn't notice others' mentioning GOG's flaws

[Thorfinn]

@imperialwaltz,oops, I could have been a bit more clear. Gog is fine. It's Steam that causes the problems. Mods in Steam's Workshop don't generally work on a Gog, Humble, or a handful of other storefront installs. I've even tried buying an additional copy on Steam, but unless installed on the same machine (which defeats the point of having a second copy) copying a parallel directory structure and tweaking configs is not good enough to let you use Workshop mods on a non-Steam install.

I'm sure there are exceptions, but on the ones I've tried Steam tech support says I can't do that.

[gibbelblonk]

On 10/28/2022 at 7:40 PM, Thorfinn said:

I'm not a developer, but from what several devs have said over on GOG, Workshop support is mandatory, and is implemented in a way that it is not friendly to Nexus or other third-party mod systems. It's why games like The Planet Crafter are always a week or two behind at GOG, and some early access don't even bother with updates at GOG.

Uhh... Workshop is not mandatory at all. A game on Steam can do whatever it wants with mods, for example there is Factorio, it has it's own mod website and mod downloader ingame(like VS) and Factorio even has a better one, as you can browse/install all mods from the devs website ingame with a single click.

[Aksyl]

I'm in a discord server I've gushed about this game to, and not having it on steam is the only thing keeping them from buying.

TBF it's 3 people I interact with, but one of them is the server owner and he kinda sets the areas of interest for the server.

Edited April 23, 2023 by Aksyl
elaboration

[Hafthohlladung]

26 minutes ago, Aksyl said:

I'm in a discord server I've gushed about this game to, and not having it on steam is the only thing keeping them from buying.

TBF it's 3 people I interact with, but one of them is the server owner and he kinda sets the areas of interest for the server.

I held off buying for almost a year for the same reason, but then finally took the plunge with my Credit Card.

Now I'm glad that it's not on Steam, as it helps preserve it's independant character.  The developers seem to being doing just fine without it and long may that continue.

[Aksyl]

33 minutes ago, Hafthohlladung said:

I held off buying for almost a year for the same reason, but then finally took the plunge with my Credit Card.

Now I'm glad that it's not on Steam, as it helps preserve it's independant character.  The developers seem to being doing just fine without it and long may that continue.

Putting a game on a platform is a matter of accessibility. There's no control the devs would need to cede to put this on steam, and they could even keep selling it off of steam, a cut of the proceeds from sales on steam will go to valve. The only thing I'm consciously unaware of and not willing to search for right this second is whether or not they could opt out of promotional sales, which is an issue people have had in the past but may have already been addressed.

No out of touch board of executives is going to take over direction of the game simply because it went onto a very publicly accessible (to developers) platform.

I'm all for the developers making the decision based on any whim of theirs at all, even sheer apathy, I already have the game, but no aspect of the game's "character" is at risk. The vast majority of games on steam are independent and wholly unsubsidized by anyone but the customers.

[Hafthohlladung]

19 minutes ago, Aksyl said:

Putting a game on a platform is a matter of accessibility. There's no control the devs would need to cede to put this on steam, and they could even keep selling it off of steam, a cut of the proceeds from sales on steam will go to valve.

I'm not 100% certain what you state is true, for example I've heard stories about developers not being allowed to undercut the Steam price on their own websites.

Edited April 23, 2023 by Hafthohlladung

[Khornet]

On 4/23/2023 at 10:04 PM, Hafthohlladung said:

I'm not 100% certain what you state is true, for example I've heard stories about developers not being allowed to undercut the Steam price on their own websites.

That is, quite frankly, a preposterous statement, considering the multitude of games being sold on various platforms at these platforms'/developers' leisure of a price choice, such as GoG.  Whatever you've heard was most likely sown as a rumor by Steam's competitors or salty developers themselves. Valve doesn't even do exclusivity contracts unlike EGS (who completely killed all the hype around Darkest Dungeon 2 with its 1 year exclusivity contract, as the most notorious example). The only "exclusives" on Steam are games made by Valve.

"Preserving the game's character" or "street cred" for not being on Steam are also completely preposterous "arguments". This SHOULD be solely a financial decision, and I say this only because I love VS and I want it to evolve and pump out new content/builds faster than its current glacial development speed (I'm sorry, but it's true).
 

On 9/14/2022 at 2:10 AM, AngryRob said:

Right now steam is good, but what happens when Gabe Newell no longer runs the company? What happens if they decide to charge a monthly fee to use the launcher? There are a billion ways for these platforms to go south and start sucking. I hope it never happens but it is always a possibility. 

What if he does? What if they do?  What if an AI goes rogue and shuts down the entire Internet permanently??? What if we all die in a nuclear apocalypse????

...

Do you see now how silly your argument is?

On 9/14/2022 at 3:38 AM, Thorfinn said:

Steam is really horrible in terms of mod support, though. You have to supply support for the way Steam wants things done, AND a parallel system for the way non-Steam needs to be done. Seen it cripple all kinds of games, since the priority has to become supporting Steam.

Another preposterous statement; implying that downloading games through Steam "locks you out" of modding outside of Steam. Steam gives you full access to all the game files once they are downloaded and installed in your library. Literally nothing is stopping you from manually drag-and-dropping the mod files as you please.
All developers are also free to use their own tools and launchers via proxy as they please. Many developers inject their own launchers despite being ran on Steam, like Larian or CDProjekt.

All games are moddable through Steam through any modding tools that are available without it. The most notable and popular example is Skyrim.
By all means though, do provide the examples of Steam crippling "all kinds of games" though. I'm eager to be proven wrong.

On 4/15/2023 at 10:42 PM, imperialwaltz said:

I think the Steam community is full of people wanting to change games to make them all like each other.

I'm sorry; but what does this even MEAN? That there is some kind of hivemind exclusive to Steam that pressures game developers to make them meet the lowest common denominator?

I'm hardly some kind of paid shill on Valve's payroll, but appearing not as one is very hard considering the completely ludicrous opinions people here have about Steam. At the end of the day, it's a platform that earned its monopoly via early entry, convenience, adaptation to the market, and user-friendliness - and YES, that user-friendliness often comes at the price of developer-friendliness, spawning much salt from that side of the industry.

And yeah, I do want all the best to Tyron, but after coming back to VS every year or so since ~5 years, I keep being more and more disappointed with each big patch, and each time I immerse myself into the game on these big patches, it happens for a shorter amount of time. At the end of the day, you simply need more workforce to make the game bigger and better, and workforce doesn't work for free. So I will always say going for more financial resources, which means popularizing the game, which means Steam, is the lesser evil, regardless of whatever "evil" you may claim lies in Steam. 
And I actually do trust Tyron not to compromise the integrity and vision of VS by making this choice. Unlike some other developer whose name begins with 'N' that made a certain similar game that begins with 'M'.

Edited May 4, 2023 by Khornet

[Thorfinn]

21 hours ago, Khornet said:

Another preposterous statement; implying that downloading games through Steam "locks you out" of modding outside of Steam. Steam gives you full access to all the game files once they are downloaded and installed in your library. Literally nothing is stopping you from manually drag-and-dropping the mod files as you please.
All developers are also free to use their own tools and launchers via proxy as they please. Many developers inject their own launchers despite being ran on Steam, like Larian or CDProjekt.

Did you bother to read what I said?

Let's take an arbitrary game that is out of development, has mods on Steam but not on Nexus. Just happened 2 weeks ago with Staxel. My niece wanted to play a particular mod, but since her mom bought it on GOG, Steam's official answer was, "You have to buy it on Steam."

Hardly the only case. Stardew Valley is exactly the same. If I do not buy on Steam, forget it. My Time at Portia, same.

Preposterous? "You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means."

[EDIT]

Seriously, dude, your entire demeanor, your answer to everyone, just validates the impression people have described that they have of Steam-atics. VS is not developing as fast or in the direction you prefer? How did that differ from what others just finished saying about those who hype Steam? Or didn't you bother to read what they posted, either?

[/EDIT]

Edited May 4, 2023 by Thorfinn

[Khornet]

3 hours ago, Thorfinn said:

Let's take an arbitrary game that is out of development, has mods on Steam but not on Nexus. Just happened 2 weeks ago with Staxel. My niece wanted to play a particular mod, but since her mom bought it on GOG, Steam's official answer was, "You have to buy it on Steam."

Hardly the only case. Stardew Valley is exactly the same. If I do not buy on Steam, forget it. My Time at Portia, same.

Ok, I understand what you mean, you simply seem unaware that you're talking about Steam workshop and its peculiarities. Mods on Steam workshop - surprise - do require Steam, because that's often what the mod creators demand. It was, in fact, advertised as a feature for modders who don't want their mods "stolen" or "reuploaded without permission". If you want to use STEAM WORKSHOP content then you have to use the STEAM WORKSHOP. Using the STEAM workshop requires that you have the game on STEAM. Whether or not the mods themselves are available outside of the Steam workshop is up to the mod authors themselves. AGAIN: it is ENTIRELY up to the MOD AUTHORS whether they want to limit their mods to Steam workshop or not. I highly doubt VS is at any danger here in this aspect. Especially since developers have a contractual right to demand any mods for their game to be removed from Steam workshop at their leisure.

I have no problems modding Stardew Valley via downloading them from Nexus (where literally 98% of the mods worth noting are) despite owning and launching it on Steam. In fact, I've branched a whole new game directory, which lets me play a modded and vanilla version, both through Steam. It's as flexible as it can get.
 

3 hours ago, Thorfinn said:

Did you bother to read what I said?

I believe I have little problems with reading comprehension. The implications in the following statements are quite clear:
"Steam is really horrible in terms of mod support, though. You have to supply support for the way Steam wants things done, AND a parallel system for the way non-Steam needs to be done. Seen it cripple all kinds of games, since the priority has to become supporting Steam."

They remain preposterous. Steam is not "horrible" in terms of mod support because it has its own modding tool. Steam does not ENFORCE its modding tool as the ONLY way to mod games.

3 hours ago, Thorfinn said:

Seriously, dude, your entire demeanor, your answer to everyone, just validates the impression people have described that they have of Steam-atics. VS is not developing as fast or in the direction you prefer? How did that differ from what others just finished saying about those who hype Steam? Or didn't you bother to read what they posted, either?

I've no idea what to even do with this. Making a rational, factual, point of view is "Steam-atics"?

As much as I loathe to state it, VS developing in a glacial tempo is simply a matter of fact, not opinion. It has been this way since its inception. It's completely understandable, given it's as indie as it gets with a team as small as it has. But if compromises can be made to IMPROVE that team and development, they should be done, IMO. And what "compromises" are they in the first place?  You're not sacrificing any "independence" by going on Steam. You don't need to migrate your whole community, modding, dev diaries, anything there. You can just treat it as a distribution/marketing platform. 
In fact, the only sensible anti-Steam argument to me is the lack of leverage on the refund policy, which means Steam gets to decide who gets the refunds, not Tyron.

VS is suffering incredibly from a complete lack of visibility on the market. There is no better and more efficient tool on the market than Steam to patch that extreme weakness VS has as product. I can respect Tyron for sticking to this principle for so long, but I hate to see the circle around this game being so irrationally negative about Steam. It stunts the ambition the game should have. I seriously believe it could EASILY mimic the success Terraria experienced largely (or perhaps even exclusively) thanks to Steam. And it's honestly this Terraria parallel, where Re-Logic begun and where they're now as a studio, that has me re-thinking what VS could become.

Edited May 5, 2023 by Khornet