Do we really need a combat overhaul? What are your opinions on it?

[Josiah Gibbonson]

I definitely think we do. If the combat was similar to first person Skyrim with blocking and dual wielding it'd already be a huge improvement. 

 

Would we need a roll button? How would that work in first person??

 

Should they implement it sooner rather than later so they don't have to redo so many mobs, or should they do it at all?

 

What's wrong with Combat in your opinion, how could it be drastically improved?

[Krähenwolf]

In my opinion, there is nothing inherently wrong with combat as it is. But Creature AI could use a good overhaul.

Wolves basically either jump past you or stand right inside you, making you unable to hit them. Bears are kinda the same, but at least have a bigger hitbox. If they would stop a bit further away from you and still be able to hit you, combat would be improved in that you could actually see what is happening.

Likewise, wolves should not act like rabbits on caffeine the moment they spot you, but rather try to encircle you or evade you entirely when they are not hungry. A bit unrelated, but I am also a fan of bears hibernating for the winter, so that they become less of a threat...unless you go into the cave they are hibernating in.

Drifters are mostly fine, but seem to sometimes hit "past" the shield when you are blocking. could also be that the stone hitbox is materialized behind your shield when they throw a stone too close to you, for some reason.

Having rolls in first person is a no-go. Look up ES:Oblivion, where you got a dodge roll after reaching 75 acrobatics. half the time you are not sure if you are rolling, and the other half you are more disoriented than the enemy.

Dual wielding could be fine, but being a medieval history nerd myself, it would only make sense to me if daggers were also introduced. Dual wielding was basically almost only done with a shorter weapon than your main weapon, because of the logistics - you needed to hit an opponent from two directions at the same time, and two equally long weapons just got in the way. Blocking, however, could be improved, though for the points made above.

[Thorfinn]

Personally, I think it's fine as is. I don't play the game for the combat. If that were what I wanted, I'd play something like Exanima instead. If I wanted combat to be the primary means of resources, I'd play a rogue-like.

VS, OTOH, is more of a light survival, almost a cozy builder, with some basic farming and involved crafting. Maybe hunting could use some love, but it's not really necessary either. It doesn't take very much to keep the protein bar filled. Even keeping wolves out of your territory gives you enough meat.

I'd rather see the game play to its strengths -- the crafting and cooking. Charcoal and coke and fireclay are time-consuming, if basic processes. Backpacks and bows are more involved. I'd like to see a lot more things like more involved barrel crafting.

[Krähenwolf]

3 minutes ago, Thorfinn said:

Personally, I think it's fine as is. I don't play the game for the combat. If that were what I wanted, I'd play something like Exanima instead. If I wanted combat to be the primary means of resources, I'd play a rogue-like.

VS, OTOH, is more of a light survival, almost a cozy builder, with some basic farming and involved crafting. Maybe hunting could use some love, but it's not really necessary either. It doesn't take very much to keep the protein bar filled. Even keeping wolves out of your territory gives you enough meat.

I'd rather see the game play to its strengths -- the crafting and cooking. Charcoal and coke and fireclay are time-consuming, if basic processes. Backpacks and bows are more involved. I'd like to see a lot more things like more involved barrel crafting.

There are only two gripes I have with hunting right now: First, that animals seem to make no sound at all when, well, existing; and second, that animals do not occasionally - like, every 100 steps - leave a trail or footprint that you can spot. Especially since Hunter is my favorite: I am basically a butcher that is good with a bow. I cannot track animals, I cannot build better traps - I just shoot well and have a degree in meat preparation.

[Broccoli Clock]

Yes, but this comes from the perspective of someone who has only played 1.20+

However, the time for updates to combat are when all the mobs/ai the devs want to add are in the game. There's no point in doing it piecemeal; adding a new character/mob, including ai, then tweaking the combat system to enure it doesn't break.

As it is, imo combat is functional. It's important that you get feedback both from your hits and theirs, and that's part of the current system. I'm not sure how exact the hitboxes are, they seem a little odd at times, but that's something that can be addressed later.

[Josiah Gibbonson]

18 minutes ago, Broccoli Clock said:

However, the time for updates to combat are when all the mobs/ai the devs want to add are in the game.

On the contrary, wouldn't it make more sense to overhaul combat early so all new mobs and ai added could revolve around that, instead of making everything dated the moment it enters the fray, by extension creating more work with how much would need to be changed? 

[Josiah Gibbonson]

31 minutes ago, Krähenwolf said:

Having rolls in first person is a no-go. Look up ES:Oblivion, where you got a dodge roll after reaching 75 acrobatics. half the time you are not sure if you are rolling, and the other half you are more disoriented than the enemy.

Solution: Sidestepping! Functionally the same as a roll. (gives you invincibility frames and locks you into the direction you were walking- maybe hold down arrow keys for direction?) 

 

Added benefit, doesn't make you dizzy and keeps the game flowing smoothly. 

 

Would need a cooldown though, lol. Or stamina, although I'd make it so stamina only ever appeared when you were locked in combat with another creature

[Josiah Gibbonson]

35 minutes ago, Krähenwolf said:

Dual wielding could be fine, but being a medieval history nerd myself, it would only make sense to me if daggers were also introduced. Dual wielding was basically almost only done with a shorter weapon than your main weapon, because of the logistics - you needed to hit an opponent from two directions at the same time, and two equally long weapons just got in the way. Blocking, however, could be improved, though for the points made above.

The heck you mean I can't hold two swords longer than my entire body in each hand despite being able to carry like eight dozen logs on my person >:O

[Josiah Gibbonson]

1 hour ago, Krähenwolf said:

There are only two gripes I have with hunting right now: First, that animals seem to make no sound at all when, well, existing; and second, that animals do not occasionally - like, every 100 steps - leave a trail or footprint that you can spot. Especially since Hunter is my favorite: I am basically a butcher that is good with a bow. I cannot track animals, I cannot build better traps - I just shoot well and have a degree in meat preparation.

Would butchering be a gameplay loop you'd like to see added? You could get bonus meat if you took the time to carry the carcass back to base, skin it, and dry it out before chopping it up. (Like the butchering mod, but remove the blood part) 

 

I think it'd be a fun, optional loop for hunters to come back and let all see their prized hunt on a little cart.

[Thorfinn]

The problem with "improving" combat is that, almost by definition, it is going to result in a game where combat is a more integral part of gameplay. The closer you get to a combat sim, the more will be the push to increase the necessity of battle.

Which is why things like Combat Overhaul are great as mods. Those who want a more can easily add that without overwhelming those who would prefer the more pastoral experience of the current game.

[Josiah Gibbonson]

 

 

 

3 minutes ago, Thorfinn said:

The problem with "improving" combat is that, almost by definition, it is going to result in a game where combat is a more integral part of gameplay. The closer you get to a combat sim, the more will be the push to increase the necessity of battle.

Which is why things like Combat Overhaul are great as mods. Those who want a more can easily add that without overwhelming those who would prefer the more pastoral experience of the current game.

I still fail to see why there's all these gameplay loops that feed into different gameplay styles, yet combat has to get the short end of the stick. If you ask me it'd make the main story and bosses more enjoyable, along with making the little scuffles with drifters more interesting. You wouldn't *have* to engage with combat at all if you didn't want. But when you were forced to by drifters or wolves it'd be a more enjoyable experience!

[Thorfinn]

5 minutes ago, Josiah Gibbonson said:

yet combat has to get the short end of the stick.

That's what I'm saying. I do not accept the premise that combat is lacking. Sidestep, like you said in your last reply? You can do that now. You just don't get "invincibility frames". With practice, you essentially get "invincibility frames" just by learning to time your sidestep, and not rely on the game engine to do your timing for you.

5 minutes ago, Josiah Gibbonson said:

But when you were forced to by drifters or wolves it'd be a more enjoyable experience!

How? Let's say "invincibility frames" were incorporated.  In what way would one find that a more enjoyable experience?

Edited March 30, 2025 by Thorfinn

[Hexalan]

I would counter and say, why does every good building game have to be turned into a PvP combat sim?  I'm not here for the combat.  I'm here for a beautiful world to build in with a story and lore to seek out.  Combat is secondary.  And invincibility?  I already have that in the shield.  It works well enough that I'm not overly concerned with mobs.  Yes, you have to stop and regroup, maybe take off your armor and heal up.  That's more realistic than the invincible, dual-wielding, terror tank.  There are plenty of games where combat is the focus.  It's rather tiring and bland if that's the only way to play a game.

[TFT]

Combat could use some improvements to make it feel good as it feels jank as hell, but a whole overhaul is not necessary for the reasons Thorfinn mentioned. Doing something like the combat overhaul mod is definitely the wrong way to go about it as it's overkill and tries to do too much. Leave the overly ambitious and experimental stuff to mods.

For what could be done to polish combat, I would do away with hitscan. Hitscan works better for Minecraft as the time between clicking and doing damage was near instant, whereas here we have a much longer delay for attack windup, a lot can happen in that half second which leads to my next point. Shivers added another mob to the pile that is both too fast and in your face to feel good fighting. Call it a skill issue if you want, but I simply don't have the reflexes to land all my attacks with all their jumping and pushing into the player. Missing a shiver that's facehugging you a few times because your crosshair landed between its legs or over its head at the last instant sucks, same goes for locusts, and a similar story for attacking mobs in bushes, leaves, and grass. Like you can see your weapon passing through an enemy, and shivers are large enough to see that in third person, but if your crosshair wasn't on them you do no damage. If your weapon had a similar contact damage like thrown spears and arrows do it would alleviate the feeling of swinging at air.
 

1 hour ago, Krähenwolf said:

First, that animals seem to make no sound at all when, well, existing

This is a much larger problem when you factor hostile mobs. Wolves are at least good at it, most of the time, since when they aggro on you get barking and growling giving you a split second to start running, but bears will sneak up on you and you only find out you're being mauled after they swipe off 3/4 of your health and by that point you're just dead.

[Josiah Gibbonson]

18 minutes ago, Thorfinn said:

That's what I'm saying. I do not accept the premise that combat is lacking.

You just spam right click against most entities and it's gg ez, lol...Spears are overpowered, just have five of them in your inventory and machine-gun everything in sight since nothing has weaknesses or resistances. 

 

Like, ask yourself, if combat is lacking, why do YOU play other games for their combat aspect? Because combat in THIS game sucks! Compared to how detailed everything in this game is, the combat is for toddlers. 

 

20 minutes ago, Thorfinn said:

How? Let's say "invincibility frames" were incorporated.  In what way would one find that a more enjoyable experience?

You could make entities attack faster and make more interesting attack patterns. 

 

As is, the character is too sluggish for more advanced attack patterns, you'd absolutely get your butt kicked in. A fast, unblockable projectile coming towards you? Well guess what, no way to strafe, can't jump over it, and heaven help you if you think crouching will do something

 

But, if the character stays slow and not very agile, so must everything else. 

[cjc813]

I honestly like the core combat, and wouldn't want to see something too much more complicated than the point and swing stuff we have now. 

What I *would* like to see, is a more diverse sandbox.

a) More mobs, and better implementation of the existing mobs. I'd like to see the enemies attack together more often instead of trickling in one or two at a time. I think the skeleton of a solid mob sandbox is there, but most of the time you might see a couple drifters, kill them. Then go fight one bowtorn, and occasionally get attacked by a shiver. Think something like Doom 2016/Eternal... each mob has a role on the field, and the way you move and fight depends on what mobs are out there and where they are.

b) More weapons. I'd like to see different weapon speeds and ranges. Slow warhammers, fast daggers, swords in the middle, stuff like that. Maybe even a battle axe that could cleave, something. Have weapon diversity and make them useful for certain situations. Hell, even just cosmetic differences would be cool. I'm tired of looking at the same reskinned Falx.

[Josiah Gibbonson]

3 minutes ago, cjc813 said:

I honestly like the core combat, and wouldn't want to see something too much more complicated than the point and swing stuff we have now. 

Agreed. I think a simple "dodge" button could do wonders. That way when more enemies/mobs get added, you can diversify them further by making some have harder to avoid attack patterns. 

 

Although I'd also love an actual parry or backstab mechanic, it's not needed.

 

But enemies having weaknesses and resistances among having "weak spots" would certainly make crafting new kinds of weapons viable.  When hunting, I'd love to be able to down a deer faster by having to aim at a weakspot.

 

But as is, does NOT need to be that complex lol

[Thorfinn]

56 minutes ago, Josiah Gibbonson said:

You just spam right click against most entities and it's gg ez, lol...Spears are overpowered, just have five of them in your inventory and machine-gun everything in sight since nothing has weaknesses or resistances. 

Yeah. And yet, what do we see posts all the time about? People complaining that it's too hard. Rage quitting over one, lone, single wolf. Heck, look at the comments to the recent vid by @Dubbs Malone that demonstrated how easy it is to take wolves. (Bears and shivers, too.)  Do they strike you as a community in search of a more combat-intensive game?

The game can be quite intimidating to a new player. Particularly if you are coming to the game for the building, and especially, the chiseling. Why is it reasonable to want to jack things up to chase them away entirely?

[cjc813]

1 hour ago, Josiah Gibbonson said:

Although I'd also love an actual parry or backstab mechanic, it's not needed.

That would at least give Malefactor something interesting to do in combat. I like that idea.

[Josiah Gibbonson]

1 hour ago, Thorfinn said:

Yeah. And yet, what do we see posts all the time about? People complaining that it's too hard. Rage quitting over one, lone, single wolf. Heck, look at the comments to the recent vid by @Dubbs Malone that demonstrated how easy it is to take wolves. (Bears and shivers, too.)  Do they strike you as a community in search of a more combat-intensive game

One could argue stronger enemies dealing more damage and being damage sponges themselves rather than having diverser movepools as they get stronger makes it more annoying. 

 

But I'm sorry, if you can't even take one single wolf in this game down, just play minecraft...seriously.

 

And I don't want a combat intensive game. But if they're gonna progress the story by having us fight unique enemies and bosses, the combat had better be fun. And as it is right now, I just find it bland and tedious. But we can agree to disagree. 

 

Doesn't have to be overly complex, new players wouldnt even notice it early game anyway. But if they want to progress easier through the story or survive more dangerous temporal storms, they should reasonably be expected to get better. 

 

If you want to kill a wolf, SURE you can just keep stabby stabbing it. But if you want to care enough to do it effeciently, you might research what's best to deal with them to do it safer and quicker. The game should not be focused on combat at all, but when it requires it, all I'm asking is it be a little more detailed like everything else. Not harder, just. . .less mind-numbingly simple. 

[LadyWYT]

5 hours ago, Josiah Gibbonson said:

If the combat was similar to first person Skyrim with blocking and dual wielding it'd already be a huge improvement. 

Er...I would say that what we have currently is roughly equivalent to Skyrim combat...perhaps a bit more in-depth, even, given how the armor/weapon tiers work. Skyrim is fun as a casual action game, but the combat is pretty mediocre.

5 hours ago, Josiah Gibbonson said:

Would we need a roll button? How would that work in first person??

No, I think a dodge-roll is better left to mods. It's a cool move, yes, and it can obviously help you dodge an incoming attack. But realistically, you want to sidestep or block/parry an incoming attack, since you maintain a lot better footing, vision, and reaction time that way.

As for how it works in first-person, it really doesn't work that well. I've tried such a mod in Skyrim and it was very disorienting. In order for it to work well, you have to fudge the first-person animation quite a lot, so it doesn't look very realistic from the first person perspective.

5 hours ago, Josiah Gibbonson said:

Should they implement it sooner rather than later so they don't have to redo so many mobs, or should they do it at all?

Given what Tyron said in a somewhat recent interview, I don't get the impression that there's a combat rework planned. Combat seems to be working as intended for now.

I'm somewhat inclined to agree. The system we have right now might be basic, but it's pretty solid--easy to pick up and start playing, difficult to master. There's a bit of jank to smooth out with hit boxes and spawn ratios, certainly. I would like to see a few more weapon options, of course(I'm not a fan of the falx design), but those are easily modded in and thus not really a big deal.

5 hours ago, Josiah Gibbonson said:

What's wrong with Combat in your opinion, how could it be drastically improved?

I pretty much already answered this above. However, I did a write-up a while back on what a more nuanced combat system could look like. You can find that thread here: 

 

5 hours ago, Krähenwolf said:

In my opinion, there is nothing inherently wrong with combat as it is. But Creature AI could use a good overhaul.

Improving the pathfinding of creatures would be a big improvement, I think. Not that I really mind "dumb" monsters getting easily confused by obstacles, but tougher/smarter enemies(wolves, bears, higher level monsters) ought to be able to navigate around most basic obstacles.

That being said, AI is always going to be exploitable, once you learn its patterns.

5 hours ago, Krähenwolf said:

Dual wielding could be fine, but being a medieval history nerd myself, it would only make sense to me if daggers were also introduced. Dual wielding was basically almost only done with a shorter weapon than your main weapon, because of the logistics - you needed to hit an opponent from two directions at the same time, and two equally long weapons just got in the way. Blocking, however, could be improved, though for the points made above.

Agreed. If I'm recalling correctly, the main advantage to dual-wielding is that you can throw attacks from two different angles at roughly the same time, making it harder for an opponent to parry/block both entirely. However, that requires a lot of practice and skill to pull off, and most of the time one of your weapons is just going to be playing the part of a shield anyway(but offering much less coverage). Hence why a shield + weapon is a more reliable combo.

Given the kind of enemies the game throws at you, dual-wielding would be a great way to turn into a pincushion rather quickly.

1 hour ago, Josiah Gibbonson said:

And I don't want a combat intensive game. But if they're gonna progress the story by having us fight unique enemies and bosses, the combat had better be fun. And as it is right now, I just find it bland and tedious. But we can agree to disagree. 

I think this is one of the strong points of having a robust modding scene. The vanilla combat gets the job done, but if it's not enough(or too much) for some players, it's easy enough to tweak to one's liking via mods.

[Josiah Gibbonson]

46 minutes ago, LadyWYT said:

easy to pick up and start playing, difficult to master.

By difficult to master, do you mean hitting the enemy and backing up, and then repeat until they're dead? Or just run, turn, throw a spear, run, turn, throw another spear, and run to retrieve them, rinse and repeat? 

[LadyWYT]

13 minutes ago, Josiah Gibbonson said:

By difficult to master, do you mean hitting the enemy and backing up, and then repeat until they're dead? Or just run, turn, throw a spear, run, turn, throw another spear, and run to retrieve them, rinse and repeat? 

It's one thing to say it; it's another thing entirely to execute those movements smoothly without getting smacked, while still being able to land your own hits. Are they terribly complex concepts? No, but timing is the key, and something that only comes via practice.

Hence why I say the system is "easy to pick up, difficult to master". The concepts themselves are simple enough for anyone to pick up and start having fun with the game. But players will need to put in the effort to figuring out the timing of when to step back, when to move in for attack, and when to release a projectile for maximum range and damage.

[Pascaloubicou]

For exemple i really like using the spear with the elk to hunt down the faster mobs, i would love to be able to do it with more gears.

Throw bombs use traps, defend my place like a real warrior . Maybe more companions like the locust who could had a lot to the combat.There is plenty of ancients weapons in game who could be really promising if we could forge them.

I share the point of view of some who say that there is place for improvement, the hit box is kind of weird sometimes, damage sponges , ect.

So i'll go for a YES of course, good luck to the devs if they go for it.

Oh and steel knife is an actual good weapon

[-Glue-]

I don't think combat needs to be any more complex than it currently is. Other than maybe a future injury/recovery system, or more types of weapons. My only issue with the current system is that its pretty jank and unpredictable. Oftentimes attacks just don't register. Or shivers rush me, get stuck inside me, then rapidly spin around me so I can't hit them. Plus the occasional issue of getting stuck in walls when you get hit.
The system definitely needs an overhaul, but I don't think it needs dodging or anything more complex. Once the jank is fixed, the intrigue of combat can come from a variety of enemy AI behaviors. Both in hostiles, and wild animals. I know there is a lore reason to only having the falx, but I would still love to see different weapons, or even flintlock guns. More types of weapons, armor, and equipment could give a larger variety of playstyles, all without having to touch the base player movement.