opinion No Steam No Buy?

[Fistandantilus]

1 hour ago, Diff said:

It's way more. The list is incomplete, so you can't use it to make statements about the overall proportion. I can tell you that out of the 38 games installed on my Steam Deck right now, a lot more than 3.6% are DRM-free, and many aren't on that list.

Ah, well I based my math off that list, so thanks for letting me know, i can give them the benefit of the doubt to a higher degree. 

[Michaloid]

8 hours ago, Colaba said:

but i live on Brazil and dont have a international card.

I don't know when you got the game, but for the better part of 5+ months now VS has partnered with Ilha Restrita for brazilians to buy the game.

[Katherine K]

6 hours ago, Diff said:

Based on this topic over here, I think a launcher would be a pretty easy way to implement it, maybe keeping separate folders for each modpack and tacking on the appropriate path with --addModPath. I see there's also flags to leap straight into specific worlds (--openWorld) and to connect to specific servers (--connect) which oughta make things very smooth.

Oh, neat. Yeah, if the engine takes mod paths as a parameter, that removes the hassle with virtual file system.

Technically, this means that people can just make .bat files to launch the game with different mod packs as a temp solution.

[Bumber]

14 hours ago, Fistandantilus said:

Those platforms often include Denuvo on top of their own systems, and Steam itself has a long track record of siding against players in DRM matters. Examples include Steamworks requiring the client to launch games, offline mode being broken or unreliable for years, the lack of refunds before 2015 even when DRM caused problems, Ubisoft’s double-DRM through Steam plus Uplay, Bethesda stacking Steam with Denuvo, Denuvo being allowed to hurt performance on top of Steam’s own DRM [...] With that history in mind, I lean toward trusting Tyron over Steam, since Valve’s priority has consistently been publishers first, not developers or players.

Steam is allowing terrible DRM, but nobody could stop Anego from adding Denuvo to VS in a timeline where Tyron dies before the game is done, with or without Steam.

The DRM-free list proves there's no hard requirement mandated by Steam. Saying Steam would side with Anego against players widely misses the point.

At present, Steam will refund any game -- no questions asked -- within a given time period, even if you bought from a shitty publisher. (AFAIK, Steam doesn't restrict publishers from offering unconditional refunds past that point.) Can Tyron help you refund Battlefield 6? No, just VS.

14 hours ago, Fistandantilus said:

VAC bans locking players out of features with no appeal, and total library loss if your account is banned.

This is the just the eggs in one basket thing I mentioned. Anego has the ability to do this to you individually, subject to local laws. At that point, your only recourse is hoist the Jolly Roger.

Edited August 26, 2025 by Bumber

[Cladow]

@Fistandantilus My post, although quite tall, was also quite brief, so I hope this is more informative.

1) DRM is DRM, and Vintage Story has it.

The VS binary demands authentication information, and will try to verify the info with the centralized server every time it launches. That is DRM. Even if VS' DRM is ineffective, merely being less bad than most of the common ones does not excuse it's presence. What VS has is still a feature that limits end user rights while having exactly zero positive effect. That is DRM.

2) End-of-line plan is good, but it would be better to not need it to begin with.

While I'm not aware of Tyron's statements on and EOL plan, I am aware that he has signed the Stop Killing Games ECI, and I do believe he does not have bad intentions in terms of consumer rights. However, if the game did not have DRM, we would not require such trust to begin with. Software should not require you to just pray that it won't intentionally screw you over.

3) VS' store is not an opposite of Steam.

Regardless of whether it is on Steam or not, VS can still decide whether it has DRM, whether it shows the source code for the base mods, whether it allows modding. Nothing prevents VS from doing the same unfavorable things that many Steam games do, and it would not be required to screw over people if it were on Steam, at least not in most of the ways that are hinted at in this thread.

Note) The DRM-free Steam game list is not to prove that Steam in any way hinders DRM, it's just an example that DRM-free games do exist on Steam.

[cruise]

16 hours ago, Percutiens said:

I personally just stuck the executable onto steam and call it a day, no need to bother with navigating to my desktop nor needing to go into my folders to find it.

This is what I did. It only takes a couple clicks to add a non-Steam game to your Steam library, so the "convenience" argument doesn't really work here. You can absolutely have your cake and eat it too if all you want is to be able to launch Vintage Story through Steam. I don't really understand this. Respectfully, I feel like this is more about the principle of the thing.
Forums? We have those. Steam Workshop equivalent? We have that too. If it's about the option to buy Steam cards in-person so you're not handing over your information online, I think that makes more sense, but you're still not taking zero risk doing that. What else do we really need, here? I feel like I'm missing something but I know I'm probably not.

[Diff]

2 hours ago, cruise said:

This is what I did. It only takes a couple clicks to add a non-Steam game to your Steam library, so the "convenience" argument doesn't really work here. You can absolutely have your cake and eat it too if all you want is to be able to launch Vintage Story through Steam. I don't really understand this. Respectfully, I feel like this is more about the principle of the thing.
Forums? We have those. Steam Workshop equivalent? We have that too. If it's about the option to buy Steam cards in-person so you're not handing over your information online, I think that makes more sense, but you're still not taking zero risk doing that. What else do we really need, here? I feel like I'm missing something but I know I'm probably not.

Thing about this is that it's not about the forums, or the workshop, or the cards, or any other feature. If Epic had all of those features, someone saying "No Steam, No Buy" wouldn't be swayed, because it's not about any of that. Steam is just the horse they're backing. It's the ecosystem they've invested in. They don't need to worry about installing and managing other stores and worrying about their policies or quirks, just Steam.

VS is unique in a few ways that make it being Not Steam less of a drag, like not requiring a separate full launcher like EA, Ubisoft, Epic, whatever else, but whether that's enough is up to the person's personal preference about it just Not Being Steam, not up to a wealth or lack of features.

Edited August 26, 2025 by Diff

[cruise]

1 hour ago, Diff said:

Thing about this is that it's not about the forums, or the workshop, or the cards, or any other feature. If Epic had all of those features, someone saying "No Steam, No Buy" wouldn't be swayed, because it's not about any of that. Steam is just the horse they're backing. It's the ecosystem they've invested in. They don't need to worry about installing and managing other stores and worrying about their policies or quirks, just Steam.

VS is unique in a few ways that make it being Not Steam less of a drag, like not requiring a separate full launcher like EA, Ubisoft, Epic, whatever else, but whether that's enough is up to the person's personal preference about it just Not Being Steam, not up to a wealth or lack of features.

Exactly that, yeah. At the end of the day, people can do whatever they want and I don't really care. I just don't understand feeling so tied to any one thing in the absence of any other force than just wanting it and I guess I probably never will.

[CastIronFabric]

3 hours ago, cruise said:

This is what I did. It only takes a couple clicks to add a non-Steam game to your Steam library, so the "convenience" argument doesn't really work here. You can absolutely have your cake and eat it too if all you want is to be able to launch Vintage Story through Steam. I don't really understand this. Respectfully, I feel like this is more about the principle of the thing.
Forums? We have those. Steam Workshop equivalent? We have that too. If it's about the option to buy Steam cards in-person so you're not handing over your information online, I think that makes more sense, but you're still not taking zero risk doing that. What else do we really need, here? I feel like I'm missing something but I know I'm probably not.

actually I have been using Steam for more than 10 years now and I had no idea that you could add a non-steam game to your library.

I would argue that 1. a person would have to know its possible. 2. would then have to learn how to do it. or...not bother and play any other of the 150,000+ games on steam

Edited August 26, 2025 by CastIronFabric

[cruise]

5 minutes ago, CastIronFabric said:

actually I have been using Steam for more than 10 years now and I had no idea that you could add a non-steam game to your library.

I would argue that 1. a person would have to know its possible. 2. would then have to learn how to do it. or...not bother and play any other of the 150,000+ games on steam

Guess that's fair. I wasn't aware that a lot of people didn't know this. My apologies. It's under the Games tab at the top, by the way. Last option. Check next to whatever you want to add or search for it in your files. Then you can launch it the same way as anything else. Really handy to keep everything in one space. I've put some non-game applications in there too that I keep magically losing track of otherwise.
Still, though. I have a feeling, as Diff said, that it has very little to do with actual convenience. But it's a little rude of me to speculate on this. At the end of the day, someone is probably just going to stick by it until something makes them. I confess I'm still not that good at changing my mind when I realize my reasons are silly.

[Thorfinn]

I'm still on an anti-Steam kick. I'm sure they've improved, but their early launcher was a privacy nightmare, and they had what I consider to be "exploitative" policies, particularly for the smaller indies, and they demanded a Workshop commitment such that any mods listed on the Workshop could not work cross-platform (by which I mean a different purchase site, not PC/Mac/Linux/console. Went to GOG and the indie sites themselves, and apart from Humble and itch here and there, have never looked back. 

[EDIT]

Oh, and welcome to the forums, @cruise

Edited August 26, 2025 by Thorfinn

[Fistandantilus]

10 hours ago, Bumber said:

Steam is allowing terrible DRM, but nobody could stop Anego from adding Denuvo to VS in a timeline where Tyron dies before the game is done, with or without Steam.

The DRM-free list proves there's no hard requirement mandated by Steam. Saying Steam would side with Anego against players widely misses the point.

At present, Steam will refund any game -- no questions asked -- within a given time period, even if you bought from a shitty publisher. (AFAIK, Steam doesn't restrict publishers from offering unconditional refunds past that point.) Can Tyron help you refund Battlefield 6? No, just VS.

This is the just the eggs in one basket thing I mentioned. Anego has the ability to do this to you individually, subject to local laws. At that point, your only recourse is hoist the Jolly Roger.

Hmmm, I trust Tyron and his stance against DRM. To me, Anigo just seemed like a practical way to get the game out during early access, not the final goal. But here is something to consider. If Anigo ever started banning players on their own, do you really think Tyron and the dev team would allow that? It would go against the whole philosophy Tyron has built around the game publicly, and I would expect him to step in, either by changing distribution platforms or providing a DRM free option. I get where you are coming from, and I am not saying you are wrong, just sharing ideas. To me, Anigo feels more like a temporary tool for early access than any sort of long-term control system.

[Cladow]

46 minutes ago, Fistandantilus said:

If Anigo ever started banning players on their own, do you really think Tyron and the dev team would allow that?

FYI: Tyron is the primary shareholder of Anego Studios, and I'd assume the founder aswell. As I understand, he has full control over the company.

This is stated in the "Impressum" at the bottom of the page.

[Fistandantilus]

5 hours ago, Cladow said:

FYI: Tyron is the primary shareholder of Anego Studios, and I'd assume the founder aswell. As I understand, he has full control over the company.

This is stated in the "Impressum" at the bottom of the page.

This only continues to affirm my belief that in the end this game will never be in the same situation as titles like "the Crew". Thanks for sharing that I don't know why that didint pop up in my research of Anego, I probably just missed it.

[Xanadu2003]

That's such a bizarre hill to die on especially when steam lets you manage non-steam games.


I even took the liberty of adding a banner and background from the game files to make it look nicer. If its a matter of convenience then I really find that to be a silly excuse

[Fistandantilus]

18 hours ago, Xanadu2003 said:

That's such a bizarre hill to die on especially when steam lets you manage non-steam games.


I even took the liberty of adding a banner and background from the game files to make it look nicer. If its a matter of convenience then I really find that to be a silly excuse

My buddy is rather stone-headed. I will just have to wait to try and convince him until he has forgotten that he is committed to whatever ideal he is portraying atm. It is a very small hill to die on in my opinion, lol. 

[CastIronFabric]

21 hours ago, Fistandantilus said:

My buddy is rather stone-headed. I will just have to wait to try and convince him until he has forgotten that he is committed to whatever ideal he is portraying atm. It is a very small hill to die on in my opinion, lol. 

I will tell you what sold me.

rhadamants videos where the first time I saw smithing and mechanical power in the game. That is when I started to look into it more seriously. It not being on Steam was an issue for me for sure.

I was also originally put off by videos describing it as 'super hard core brutal and unforgiving'. After watching the smithing and mechanical power videos I started to look into the possibility of changing the settings away from any description where one might be inclined to use the word 'brutal' to describe it.

 

 

[mycroftcanadans]

I do understand why someone would want to have it on steam or on epic but that is just a choice. Now I have to disagree with you folks who say you own this game but it isn't a DRM free copy now is it? Before playing you have to login into your account otherwise you will never be able to play it. Lose your internet because it has become so costly you can no longer put food on the table and you can't validate it so again you can't play it.

 Owning this game and having control as it is now is not true as long as it has the DRM attached to it.

 Perhaps the developer if he or she decides to put Vintage Story on some store site I would hope they choose GOG as their platform. At least it would be DRM free, and I believe has a better environment for indie developers unlike Steam or Epic.

 Just my two worthless cents worth.

[LadyWYT]

30 minutes ago, mycroftcanadans said:

Lose your internet because it has become so costly you can no longer put food on the table and you can't validate it so again you can't play it.

I will note that the game still works just fine in offline mode; the only thing that will really be unavailable is multiplayer.

[Broccoli Clock]

7 hours ago, mycroftcanadans said:

 Lose your internet because it has become so costly you can no longer put food on the table and you can't validate it so again you can't play it.

This is not the case at all. While I'm not disagreeing that it does an online check when available I had a day where my ISP was being a dick (technical term, that) and while VS took a minute or so to accept there was no internet (presumably trying to handshake and failing) I was able to play offline in my already saved world with no issues.

Interestingly Steam took much longer for it to realise and accept the same situation, to the point I was actually questioning whether Valve had updated Steam to force "always online" as it was much easier to play offline before.

Just to confirm, I have the same concerns as many in that I do not want SaaS and permanently online gaming. If I was unable to play VS offline, I would have been shouting that loudly but thankfully when push came to shove, it was all good.

7 hours ago, LadyWYT said:

I will note that the game still works just fine in offline mode; the only thing that will really be unavailable is multiplayer.

This.

 

 

In regard to OPs position, as a player I'd like to see Steam hosting VS as it would provide lots of QoL, things such as the updating process and Steam support, the workshop for mods, steam friend list integration (I mean, if you have friends.. I don't.. ). All that plus a massive product awareness for the title, as moving from self hosting to one of the largest (if not, the largest) hosting framework would bring millions of eyes.

On the flip side, and as a dev, I can understand the reason(s) not to. One is purely financial. VS doesn't seem to be a financial drain for Anego Studios, but Steam looks for a decent wedge of profit for all that exposure and support. There is then the presumably mandatory changes to the code base in order to integrate it, whether that is some propriety Steam DRM or other Steam functionality. Finally, pushing your game to Steam can potentially bring in literally 100s of thousands of new players, depending on the hype and just random luck in terms of timing, which you would assume as a "good thing" but the truth of the matter is fast, unpredictable and exponential growth can be fatal to a company as much as no interest at all. Counter intuitive as that is, all growth has to be both consistent and sustainable, opening the flood gates (my analogy of going to Steam) is possible but everything has to be managed very carefully. 

 

Ultimately there's one reason I have no great concerns going forward. I've played games for decades (far longer than I care to admit) and over that time the games that have stuck around are those that support a deep modding ecosystem. Many "dead games" exist today because people enjoyed them in the first place, then people expanded on the code base. VS has that healthy ecosystem. It helps that it was designed for mods, but even then it's clear that if Anego were to go 'belly up' and disappeared overnight, the community would gather round and ensure VS didn't die. Classic indie games survive and thrive, even after any perceived EoL, by having that form of independent support from it's players.

Edited December 7, 2025 by Broccoli Clock

[Dark]

I love Steam and the convenience of it. However, I will buy any game that I find interesting despite it not being on steam.

Besides, you can add non-Steam games to your library so you can launch them easier

[Teh Pizza Lady]

On 12/6/2025 at 10:00 PM, LadyWYT said:

I will note that the game still works just fine in offline mode; the only thing that will really be unavailable is multiplayer.

Multiplayer would be unavailable without internet, anyway. Kind of a no-brainer there.

[Diff]

On 12/7/2025 at 6:04 AM, Broccoli Clock said:

There is then the presumably mandatory changes to the code base in order to integrate it, whether that is some propriety Steam DRM or other Steam functionality.

Nitpicking this, you're spot on elsewhere (30% is a large wedge, too many new users too fast can be a problem), but as far as I'm aware there are no requirements for anything like this on Steam. The only DRM mandated by Steam is a Steam account, basically the same DRM we have here. There would have to be changes so that Anego's servers would accept Steam accounts as valid, or some other changes to help turn Steam accounts into game accounts, but those are practical considerations, not orders from above. There are plenty of games on Steam that are more DRM-free than VS.

[Broccoli Clock]

1 minute ago, Diff said:

Nitpicking this, you're spot on elsewhere (30% is a large wedge, too many new users too fast can be a problem), but as far as I'm aware there are no requirements for anything like this on Steam. The only DRM mandated by Steam is a Steam account, basically the same DRM we have here. There would have to be changes so that Anego's servers would accept Steam accounts as valid, or some other changes to help turn Steam accounts into game accounts, but those are practical considerations, not orders from above. There are plenty of games on Steam that are more DRM-free than VS.

Heh, I've got no problem you correcting me. The point was that some changes would need to be made to the codebase to integrate it with Steam. How much work that is, whether minimal or more complex? That I honestly don't know. 

 

[CastIronFabric]

On 12/6/2025 at 9:27 PM, mycroftcanadans said:

I do understand why someone would want to have it on steam or on epic but that is just a choice. Now I have to disagree with you folks who say you own this game but it isn't a DRM free copy now is it? Before playing you have to login into your account otherwise you will never be able to play it. Lose your internet because it has become so costly you can no longer put food on the table and you can't validate it so again you can't play it.

 Owning this game and having control as it is now is not true as long as it has the DRM attached to it.

 Perhaps the developer if he or she decides to put Vintage Story on some store site I would hope they choose GOG as their platform. At least it would be DRM free, and I believe has a better environment for indie developers unlike Steam or Epic.

 Just my two worthless cents worth.

small correction, from what I understand your login will still work if you are not connected to the internet.

The main reason I would like it one Steam is so that I can use the pier to pier feature over the internet without having to create a complicated setup