Death Punishment?

[Tyron]

Recently I was thinking about what should happen when you die. I will probably go the usual way and make the player loose all items and some exp (not all levels), but I'm still interested in other ideas.

Examples:

- Drop all items but inside a grave that doesn't respawn and can be reclaimed 
- Drop all items except the ones in the hotbar?
- Don't drop any items but loose money?
- All of the above depending on the game difficulty?

Or something else completely?

[Jem]

How about when your character dies, a lootable corpse of you character is spawned with everything you had in your inventory and hotbar. You'd lose some levels but it could depend on the difficulty. It could be quite cool if you leave your corpse for a long period of time you could have things in your inventory, hotbar and  money stolen/despawn. This severity of how much has been taken away could depend on the difficulty as well. Or maybe a certain amount of lives depending on the difficulty?

[Tyron]

Well a lootable corpse with despawning items is pretty similar to dropping all items that despawn. 

[Jem]

But the difference is that all your items aren't spewed everywhere and the whole despawning thing could take ages or not happen at all. I dislike the idea of a grave or your items spewing around where you died but that's just my opinion.

[Tyron]

Oh that gives me an idea for a semi-serious skill (where players can put skill points into): Reduced Item spewing radius on death

[Erik]

My opinion on death punishment: Gravestone, no item despawning.

Makes death dangerous, but not frustrating. 

[Luk]

I think I prefer gravestone as well. Nothing makes me want to quit faster than losing all my resources because I can't find my way back in time. I think I'd be willing to deal with that loss on a higher difficulty, though.

[Thalius]

I say you drop a bag or backpack containing items upon death, and it does not de-spawn.  If additional bags are carried to increase inventory, those are dropped as well.  Items in hot bar are strewn around on ground and do not de-spawn either, or perhaps are damaged from weathering over long periods of time laying out on the ground.  Damage would not occur to items held in bags.

[Saraty]

Im personally most fond of classical MC way of death punishment, including item scatter thing and 5 minute timer...

[Thalius]

Ugh...  "It's taken me like, not even half a game day to get back here!  Where did all my diamond armor go!!!  Diamonds last forever, right!?! ...Arrrrggg!!!"

Can we link the de-spawning of gear to the hardest difficulty setting or something? ?

[Thalius]

I have been doing a little thinking on this topic and wanted to put some ideas on the board.  May I suggest three different options that would be tailored to three different levels of difficulty in the game?

On easy mode, no items are dropped from hotbar or inventory when you die, including armor and equipped weapons.  Easy mode is supposed to be for those who want a less challenging, more laid-back game experience anyway.  Or perhaps inventory items are dropped in a bag that does not de-spawn, but you still have to return to pick them up.  Hotbar items remain in the hotbar.

 

On normal mode, items in the hotbar are kept upon dying, as well as armor and equipped weapons, but inventory items are dropped and de-spawn within a few minutes.  Create a skill set to which players can allocate points acquired on level up that increase the amount of time before dropped items de-spawn.

 

On hard mode, all items are dropped and de-spawn fairly quickly.  Allow use of same skill set available in normal mode to increase the time before item de-spawn.

 

My main point in suggesting hotbar, armor and weapon items be allowed to remain with the player unless difficulty level is on hard is this:  I imagine the creation of good weapons and armor through forging and alchemy processes in the game will be both challenging and rewarding, and take time.  It will make exploration over long distances frustrating on certain levels if items that have large amounts of time and resources invested in them can be so easily lost.  Allowing hotbar and equipped items to remain while inventory items are dropped is a suggested compromise between keeping or losing everything.

 

Just some thoughts...

Edited April 22, 2017 by Thalius

[Tyron]

I envision a "Customize Playstyle" Screen that you can reach through the create world screen with a bunch of settings such as

• Torch burnout
• Being in the Darkness kills you
• Loose inventory contents on death
• etc.

In other words the 4 default playstyles are merely default selections in that configuration list. That way we could keep the difficulty level seperate from game mechanic details such as dropping items on death - and in fact i personally would somewhat prefer if we could avoid a difficulty setting altogether, there's some good arguments against it. 

We could even game-ify that custom playstyle screen. I always loved this screen in Master of Orion 2: https://strategywiki.org/wiki/File:Moo2_RaceDesignScreen.png
It gives you a fixed amount of points for postive or negative perks. Positive perks cost you points while negative perks give you more points. Unused points give you a score multiplier.

This way might give the player a way more rewarding feeling when they choose their custom playstyle.

 

 

[Jdbener]

On 4/24/2017 at 6:16 AM, Tyron said:

I envision a "Customize Playstyle" Screen that you can reach through the create world screen with a bunch of settings such as

• Torch burnout
• Being in the Darkness kills you
• Loose inventory contents on death
• etc.

In other words the 4 default playstyles are merely default selections in that configuration list. That way we could keep the difficulty level seperate from game mechanic details such as dropping items on death - and in fact i personally would somewhat prefer if we could avoid a difficulty setting altogether, there's some good arguments against it. 

We could even game-ify that custom playstyle screen. I always loved this screen in Master of Orion 2: https://strategywiki.org/wiki/File:Moo2_RaceDesignScreen.png
It gives you a fixed amount of points for postive or negative perks. Positive perks cost you points while negative perks give you more points. Unused points give you a score multiplier.

This way might give the player a way more rewarding feeling when they choose their custom playstyle.

 

 

 

Turning world options into a game sound like a great idea... taking it one level further (possibly not possible) but would be to make these kinds of settings character specific in some way. And giving characters perks for making things harder. Probably a horrible idea to implement but might be fun.

I would also like to add the Dark Soul's option into the pot. Basically when you die you drop your items like normal. however, they won't have any kind of timer so you can take as long as you like to go and get them, but if you die again they are gone.

[Chogata]

I'd say either a permanent gravestone/backpack/whatever or lootable and despawnable corse, but with a long despawn timer. Maybe leave that as an option for server/single config instead of tying it with difficulty?

Remember, this is a network game. And nothing is more frustrating, than when you die in full armour with high end weapons simply because a bear happened to attack you just at the same moment as a really big lag occurred. Lag is over and you lay dead... If, on top of that, you loose all your valuable items, you feel like playing something else. For a while. Or forever.

Games should not be easy, but also should not be frustrating, especially because of stuff a player has no control over, like network connections.

[tony Liberatto]

I have to agree with Chogata. In my opinion, the lootable corpse is the most realistic solution. Also with no despawning timer. Sometimes you are just too far away to get there in % mins.

Just remember the more grow the game in terms of Technology and better tools and armor, the more frustrating it is for the player to lose all that hardware.

For servers, there should be an option to allow other players to loot the corpse in PVP Servers or not in PVE.

[Lo-Phi]

I like what seems to be the contemporary "hardcore" approach to death consequences--you drop a grave, but each player only gets one (non-despawning) grave. In other words, if you die, your last grave is overwritten, and that grave the new grave stays until it is looted or until the player dies again, in which case a new grave appears. What this means is that there is significant tension between the player dying and getting back to their items because if you die again while trying to get to your items, you'll lose everything. But at the same time, it still feels fair because you getting back to the items is up to your capabilities as a player, not how far away you spawn from where you died (like how a timer punishes death).

Also, I vote for it to not actually be a gravestone but instead something cool and unique that relates to Vintage Story better than a gravestone appearing.

I also like the idea of potentially keeping at least a few select item slots intact upon death, because that lets players journey without fear of losing their favorite items. I know that when games make you lose everything upon death I basically just never use my favorite stuff for fear of losing it. That never really applied to Minecraft though, because nothing in Minecraft is that scarce.

Just some ideas

[Milo Christiansen]

Also, the game should let you keep at least some food, or at least a full hunger bar. Depending on how far away your house is it can be pretty easy to starve before you get there.

[tony Liberatto]

1 hour ago, Milo Christiansen said:

Also, the game should let you keep at least some food, or at least a full hunger bar. Depending on how far away your house is it can be pretty easy to starve before you get there.

I guess once the player is capable of setting spawn point he/she can just set an emergency chest with basic tools and food. That's usually what I do.

[Milo Christiansen]

Well, to be fair you can set the spawn point now (kill a ton of drifters and hope to get lucky), and a chest with food at spawn would work too, but keeping a bit of food would still be super useful in the early game.

[Soloquendi]

I like the idea of custom difficulty settings.  If death has no real penalty, then the game becomes boring to me.  Might as well play creative. 

 

[tony Liberatto]

I like very much for a config option. The first thing it does is to avoid controversy. Everyone can set to its own like.

For me, I like the option of No keep inventory on death. You die, that's what happens. But I would like the option to a recoverable corpse/grave/chest (Don't really care what.). Very important, no time despawn. After all sometimes you are just too far away from your respawn point.

[RainnMannx]

I think a fallen corpse would be great. Could set it to decay or not in the setting.

If decay is on, have setting for how long it would take.

Could visually do it in steps, first few days no signs, days after that make it look decomposed, then finally leave a skeleton.

Decomposer could attract animals.

Skeletons could stay, would need a shovel to bury it, or maybe a hammer to get bones.

Could make a setting where for x days it's only lootable by the owner, then after that anyone could.

 

 

[Balduranne]

On 4/18/2017 at 1:48 PM, Luk said:

I think I prefer gravestone as well. Nothing makes me want to quit faster than losing all my resources because I can't find my way back in time. I think I'd be willing to deal with that loss on a higher difficulty, though.

This for me. Losing all of your stuff sets you back way too much as it is.

[AngryRob]

I am currently experimenting with it turned off. To be frank, getting sent back to start because you can not set a respawn point without a rare item is already a massive inconvenience. Combine that with your daily hunt spoiling and you now have the beginning of a loop of pain that will be very hard to break. Then there is the loss of satiation. "Oh you ate before your adventure? Sucks to be you now starve". 

So i have to ask the question: is the death penalty fitting for this style of game? It makes sense in 7 days and minecraft because Bed=spawn. but does it make sense here? especially when you get insane seeds that spawn you in the middle of the ocean or on top of a mountain? Neither of those games have a food spoiling mechanic. Emperyeon has a food spoiling mechanic, but you can also set multiple spawn points, easily. 

[Allen]

Maybe it's because I settled decently close to spawn, but I find food spoilages to be a minor concern when I die.

Meat is a problem since it spoils fast, but even that's not too much of a problem since just turning it into a meal and putting it in a crock has it keep for around a week, more if you seal the crock.

And if you make a vessel, grain and vegetables store for ages(around 30 days or so for most vegetables, up to two years for grain). And all this is possible very early on as they just require clay.

Yeah, some raw meat and other stuff that had little time left sometimes rots, but most I find for most food, rotting isn't a problem unless you settle several days travel away from spawn.

.

All that said, I feel like 'drop all items, get booted to spawn' kind of sucks as a death penalty especially in open world games like this. It discourages traveling long distances as you can easily loose stuff if you're too far away from spawn when you die. It gets especially annoying in dangerous places like deep underground because 1: you're more likely to die, 2: it's usually very far away from home/spawn, and 3: due to item despawns, you're forced to run back to where you died, usually even more poorly prepared than you where when you first died, rather than preparing and returning to reclaim your things when better equipped.

A grave/corpse to hold your items when you die like others said sounds like a nice way to punish death but still have long distance travel not be as iffy to do. Maybe it could have some demerits like food rotting faster or items slowly loosing durability if they're left in the grave/corpse, or maybe items in your inventory are saved but stuff in your hotbar/hands are dropped? Lure hostile mobs to it?

Another death penalty I've seen and liked is having several far-off spawn points and having the player spawn on a random one on death. So every time you die, you're dropped off in a (usually) totally new location. It can be a bit annoying at first since you're essentially getting reset every time you die, but after a while, you end up with most spawns having some sort of base to get you geared and ready to get back to your main base, and it incentives branching out and exploring far so you can 'connect' each of the spawns together. Granted, this works best when the game has some sort of good transportation system inside to make linking the spawns together easier. 

 

Mostly, I think it's nice if death penalties had some way of being negated or reduced either with planning or if some sort of progression instead of being a 'you died you get unavoidable setbacks' or 'you died so now do Y right now or loose all your stuff'.