redram Posted February 13, 2018 Report Share Posted February 13, 2018 I just wanted to suggest that if VS is to have water wheels at some point (and why wouldn't it?!) that the groundwork and some rules be laid in the form of rivers. You could add actual rivers to world gen, rather than just random water source blocks that go wherever. These rivers would follow a path through multiple chunks. And water wheels would function better inside a chunk that the world gen has flagged as a river. Or even if we don't want to be that restrictive, I think rivers would still be a nice thing to have. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stroam Posted February 13, 2018 Report Share Posted February 13, 2018 I think just as blocks placed by players will have bit showing it was placed, so to should liquids and that player placed liquids should not be able to power water wheels. Plus I like windmills more. I'm sure rivers will come in time. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
redram Posted February 13, 2018 Author Report Share Posted February 13, 2018 (edited) I can't help but wonder if, once we have weather, windmills will only run when the wind is blowing? Historically windmills were, I think, mostly used for pumping water. In Holland, those windmills were largely used to pump water out of the lowlands, back over the dikes. This is a function that can occur without a person having to be present, and that is what windmills are best suited for. Similar to how ranchers in the midwest used windmills to draw up water for their livestock - again, a process that does not need to be continuous, and does not need a person present. For any attended commercial activity (like grinding grain) windmills are not great, because you can only do your activity when the wind is blowing. That is not ideal for any commerce. Since pumping water is far less useful in VS though, I think, I can understand if wind intermittence were not implemented, so that windmills could be more useful. I would hope they would deliver less power than a water wheel though (assuming power is a factor in VS) Edited February 13, 2018 by redram Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stroam Posted February 14, 2018 Report Share Posted February 14, 2018 You are right. For grinding they tended to use people or livestock to move a wheel around in a circle. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DMKW Posted February 19, 2018 Report Share Posted February 19, 2018 Windmills moving based on wind would be pretty neat. If a block that rotates while powered was implemented and blocks could be attached similar to slimeblocks, then windmills could still be simulated as well as water wheels and draw bridges. When rivers are a thing I hope they are more useful than in MC. I'd like to actually use rivers to travel from one settlement or biome to another. Rivers in MC just seemed very random and used to run out after a short period of time, forcing you to pick up your boat and run across a stretch of land before dropping your boat on the other side to continue. Their randomness meant they never really lead to oceans or anywhere in particular Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
redram Posted February 19, 2018 Author Report Share Posted February 19, 2018 Well, when Tyron made VintageCraft (the minecraft mod) he made a specific construct that was the windmill hub. I'm assuming he'll do the same for Vintage Story. As for travelling rivers, ya, that'd be nice. But I think he'd probably need to change world generation a ton. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DMKW Posted February 19, 2018 Report Share Posted February 19, 2018 (edited) Yeah I remember a video of what looked to be a small windmill. I assume we will see something similar. Yes world gen would have to be written with rivers in mind. Rivers would flow to ocean, sea, lakes and other rivers. This would give them an actual use for travel. Villages more likely to spawn along these bodies of water. This opens up many possibilities as well. You could craft and place markers that mapped a path for barges to travel and transport goods. This would be a stepping stone between beast travel and the very expensive rail travel. Edited February 19, 2018 by DMKW Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tyron Posted February 24, 2018 Report Share Posted February 24, 2018 Related comment: I would really like to have water-wheel powering rivers to be a very limited, yet stable resource. And these could be just the single block rivulets we already have, imo. You would not be able to spawn multiple water wheel powering rivulets from lakes or multiply them from existing ones. Wind power would be cheap but unpredictable. Coal power would be high yield and not location bound, but expensive to operate Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
redram Posted February 25, 2018 Author Report Share Posted February 25, 2018 (edited) 4 hours ago, Tyron said: You would not be able to spawn multiple water wheel powering rivulets from lakes or multiply them from existing ones. I take it then, that water buckets will not work the way they do in the future? We won't have any way to move water source blocks? As a mechanic it's definitely fine to allow a single rivulet to work, but it'd be much more picturesque it there were a wider river. Also in order to encourage these kinds of rivulets maybe allow water to flow further? I think right now it only goes 5 squares, which is not very many at all. Even minecraft allowed 7 didn't it? Would 10 be outrageous? Edited February 25, 2018 by redram Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stroam Posted February 25, 2018 Report Share Posted February 25, 2018 I think he's talking about special world gen water blocks that can be used to power a water mill that when picked up by a bucket destroys it. Something like a strong current water block. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tyron Posted February 25, 2018 Report Share Posted February 25, 2018 6 hours ago, redram said: I take it then, that water buckets will not work the way they do in the future? We won't have any way to move water source blocks? As a mechanic it's definitely fine to allow a single rivulet to work, but it'd be much more picturesque it there were a wider river. Also in order to encourage these kinds of rivulets maybe allow water to flow further? I think right now it only goes 5 squares, which is not very many at all. Even minecraft allowed 7 didn't it? Would 10 be outrageous? 4 hours ago, Stroam said: I think he's talking about special world gen water blocks that can be used to power a water mill that when picked up by a bucket destroys it. Something like a strong current water block. Yea, basically in that direction, I wouldn't make it destructable with water buckets though. Buckets could still be used to make rivers and lakes, but these wouldn't power water wheels. Water should go the same far as in MC right now, and yes, I was playing with the though of extending it, consumes a lot of block ids though if we want water to be pushing entities as well. I would make river water infinitely extendable with aqueduct blocks crafted from planks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stroam Posted February 25, 2018 Report Share Posted February 25, 2018 (edited) 5 hours ago, Tyron said: I would make river water infinitely extendable with aqueduct blocks crafted from planks. The only issue to aqueducts making infinitely flowing water is what's the point if water buckets can create water sources? Also, wood in contact with water is a good way to foul slow moving water. Romans used terracotta and lead though preferred terracotta. I've seen stone used, and of course, copper or copper alloy works great. Slime channels only use one block id but move entities fine though they don't slope which is probably why you need more than one ID. River gradients tend to be measured in meters per kilometer which honestly means in a block world it'd be one to three blocks per 1000 blocks. If I were to make water, I'd have water source blocks with the flow direction. Flow direction would be the eight cardinal directions, zero, and down. There would only be one non-source water flow block. Source blocks would be created by having the non-source water block over a solid block that isn't soil based(dirt, grass, gravel, etc). at which point the flow block would turn into a source block with the flow direction of the non-source block. The second way a source block would be created is if air is under the non-source block or a downward flow source block, it creates a downward flow source block. With this system, farmland could be irrigated by making channels from a river or creating aqueduct to bring in water from far away. Buckets would not be able to place down source blocks, nor would they destroy them. Wells would be a multiblock structure allowing one to fill up buckets as long as the center of the well had nothing but air between the top of the well and a water source below. This would make underground water useful and more of a hazard while mining. I would also make the oceans a separate source block that returns salt water and ocean blocks would void state to the ocean block. Meaning if you remove an ocean block by placing a block and then removing that air block would automatically turn into an ocean block. Basically stops people from hollowing out the ocean. Edited February 25, 2018 by Stroam Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tyron Posted February 25, 2018 Report Share Posted February 25, 2018 3 hours ago, Stroam said: The only issue to aqueducts making infinitely flowing water is what's the point if water buckets can create water sources? The water placed by water buckets couldn't be used for powering a water wheel, was my idea. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stroam Posted February 25, 2018 Report Share Posted February 25, 2018 7 minutes ago, Tyron said: The water placed by water buckets couldn't be used for powering a water wheel, was my idea. Oh, so natural water carried by aqueducts would be able to power water wheels. What prevents an aqueduct from branching and powering an infinite amount of machines? Or do we care how many machines it can power? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tony Liberatto Posted February 25, 2018 Report Share Posted February 25, 2018 I think a more elegant solution would be to make all water sources not placeable by buckets. For a water wheel, you need to actually build it by the river, you can build as many as you can fit in the river. If you want to move a water source you need to build a pump and use a pipe or aqueduct. This way players would be able to have farm irrigation and even fountains for drinking water. Now the only thing left is the issue of players being able to build lakes and rivers. Right now I am landscaping all around my house on the server, I merge lakes and even created some currents from different levels. It will look beautiful once is done, but is not realistic. As long as we have the other mechanics implemented is not a necessity for a survival game. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
redram Posted February 25, 2018 Author Report Share Posted February 25, 2018 I guess when Tyron said "I would make river water infinitely extendable with aqueduct blocks crafted from planks." I assumed he meant that water in aquaducts would not power water wheels. Only naturally occurring....fast water?....blocks? The aquaducts would be just kind of cosmetic? I mean, wood isn't exactly a high tier item. You've got a copper saw you've got wood. I guess water wheels themselves aren't exactly high tier though. The thing is, as far as crops go, it's not hard to find water to put them near. I think you can barely go 100 blocks on flat non-desert land without having water. Moreover, a logical aquaduct requires higher water source, to go downward. I wouldn't call that common in VS. Now there have been specific cases in-game where I've wanted to redirect water to cool off a magma lake. Water physics is kind of wonky though, and the very short natural drop rate makes it fairly impractical. So I could see using aquaducts for that. But otherwise I'm not sure what practical use they'd have in the current system. FWIW I'd vote with Tony for not allowing source blocks to be moved, except with pumps. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stroam Posted February 25, 2018 Report Share Posted February 25, 2018 (edited) Too bad we can't do a poll. That's three for buckets unable to place water source blocks. How do you imagine pumps would be made and how would they work? I am familiar with modern water pumps and the Archimedes cork screw. Romans used siphons. Edited February 25, 2018 by Stroam Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Milo Christiansen Posted February 25, 2018 Report Share Posted February 25, 2018 (edited) Personally I want to be able to build mill ponds and undershot wheels. Limiting water power to generated rives with no real way to teraform them seems like a bad idea. Maybe the "flowing" property could spread to all touching water? Although that would require a way to get around waterwheels directly in ponds. It would be pretty complex, but limited, flowing water working more-or-less the way Dwarf Fortress does would be the way to go IMHO. There unloaded chunks are handled by allowing map edges to be infinite water sources/sinks based on flow direction, where flow direction is a simple flag in consistently moving water like rivers. To put it simply, water moves downhill and tries to spread out, but if it flows fast enough to maintain a "full" state for a while the game stops simulating its movements and just sets a "flowing <direction> flag. For rivers this requires "spring" blocks that produce enough water to keep the river full. Large rives would need to be made from smaller springs flowing together. Writing terrain gen for that would be ... "interesting". The would would need to be at least a height map generated for the whole world, and probably a simple water erosion sim run on it. Edited February 25, 2018 by Milo Christiansen 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
redram Posted April 8, 2018 Author Report Share Posted April 8, 2018 I don't know if this is general knowledge or what but I found this page explaining the several types of water wheels interesting. Probably only the overshot and undershot are really all that would be needed in VS context. Maybe vertical spindle type if the cog elbows were high maintenance/wear items, or if vertically falling water were more rare, and streams were a thing. Overshot wheels having more power seems like a good use for aqueducts, assuming the player can't move source blocks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Domkrats Posted November 24, 2020 Report Share Posted November 24, 2020 (edited) Is there any news on this since 2018? Looking for water powered gears in this game, but agree that it shouldn't be possible to put water sources with buckets then to use them, so it would be still necessary to make windmills. Would be nice to make aqueduct or put gears in cave waterfall to power something, similar to windmill. Maybe water source would be used, but there should be added some rules like - water has to come through some chiseled pipe and source has to be at specific height, so But i don't know anything about coding, so don't know how hard is to make such rules in game. An idea about chiseled block for aqueduct came to me while making chimney for home. As i saw smoke coming through it, i imagined...how about water going through that block. Will have to try that just for fun. Edited November 25, 2020 by Domkrats Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
redram Posted November 24, 2020 Author Report Share Posted November 24, 2020 There is a plan in place for how water wheels will work. However, it would ideally be part of a large world-gen update, so it may be awhile yet. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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