In-depth Mining

[l33tmaan]

I've heard complaints that the mining system is currently rather boring. Prospecting has a bit of a learning curve to it, and non-iron ore veins tend to disappear in a few trips, especially if you're playing with any mods that have larger backpacks or really take advantage of Carry Capacity. The actual mining process itself is... whatever. You right click the block, collect nuggets. That's fine.

I propose something that involves the player more and utilizes the voxel system that makes chiseling so neat: this involves making two changes to ore blocks (ore generation is a different topic). 

1. Ore blocks must be "mined" multiple times to fully deplete them, sort of like a resource node from an RTS game. This means players can stick around mining the same ore for a longer period of time, but still be appropriately rewarded over that period. Now, even if you find a few specs of tin, you still might need a trip or two to fully deplete the block.
2. Depending on what voxel on the ore the player targets, they receive varying amounts of nuggets once they are done mining it. In the picture below, for example, striking the actual copper bits gives you more nuggets than mining the bare rock. If you want to get especially in-depth, chunks of the rock can disappear when you mine it, revealing more 'bonus' nodes to strike. Not only would this look cool, but it would trigger the reward centers in our monkey brains more than mindlessly holding right-click on the whole block - now we can mindlessly hold right-click over specific areas of the block! 

This doesn't really touch on what numbers would be ideal with this kind of setup, but I think it would be a lot more involving and interesting than what we've got now.

[Streetwind]

While I can appreciate the idea of making mining more of a minigame - do you really feel like we need to get more ore out of our veins? I've gone through three worlds, over a hundred hours in each, and I've never needed more than one tin vein. Never more than one iron vein. Never more than a single copper shaft, which usually hits 2-3 deposits. Never more than one olivine source. And so on. I wouldn't even know where to begin using additional veins worth of stuff.

That's singleplayer, obviously; multiplayer might be quite different. But on the other hand, multiplayer has more manpower covering more area. It seems entirely fair to expect a group of multiple people to find multiple ore deposits to satisfy their needs. That's how we get interesting emergent gameplay like someone acting as a full-time prospector/miner, while other people focus on other things.

[PhotriusPyrelus]

I'd love for mining to have some kind of minigame, but I'm not sure this is the way.  Only because it introduces a completely unique mechanic for breaking one specific block type (ores) compared with every other block in the game.  Otherwise it does seem pretty cool.

[l33tmaan]

4 hours ago, Streetwind said:

While I can appreciate the idea of making mining more of a minigame - do you really feel like we need to get more ore out of our veins?

9 hours ago, l33tmaan said:

This doesn't really touch on what numbers would be ideal with this kind of setup

 

4 hours ago, PhotriusPyrelus said:

I'd love for mining to have some kind of minigame, but I'm not sure this is the way.  Only because it introduces a completely unique mechanic for breaking one specific block type (ores) compared with every other block in the game.  Otherwise it does seem pretty cool.

You think I wouldn't want this for trees, too? It'd be much more engaging to have to actually chop trees properly.

[PhotriusPyrelus]

2 hours ago, l33tmaan said:

 

You think I wouldn't want this for trees, too? It'd be much more engaging to have to actually chop trees properly.

"Your ideas intrigue me and I wish to learn more."

[l33tmaan]

26 minutes ago, PhotriusPyrelus said:

"Your ideas intrigue me and I wish to learn more."

Something I just came up with:

1. You right-click a log with an axe to invisibly make it enter "chopping mode", kind of like with a chisel. 
2. When you're holding an axe and target a log in 'chopping mode', the Seraph holds the axe perpendicular to the log, ready to chop.
3. Right clicking now swings the axe and carves out a chunk where you strike, utilizing the chisel/voxel mechanics. 
4. Once enough voxels are removed from a localized area, the tree falls down and you can chop it up into the regular log blocks and get some sticks or something.

[Vinter Nacht]

On 10/10/2021 at 1:39 PM, l33tmaan said:

Something I just came up with:

1. You right-click a log with an axe to invisibly make it enter "chopping mode", kind of like with a chisel. 
2. When you're holding an axe and target a log in 'chopping mode', the Seraph holds the axe perpendicular to the log, ready to chop.
3. Right clicking now swings the axe and carves out a chunk where you strike, utilizing the chisel/voxel mechanics. 
4. Once enough voxels are removed from a localized area, the tree falls down and you can chop it up into the regular log blocks and get some sticks or something.

Can we have the develop an independent version of Dynamic  Trees first? >.> I really want better trees.

[l33tmaan]

40 minutes ago, Vinter_Nacht said:

Can we have the develop an independent version of Dynamic  Trees first? >.> I really want better trees.

No, sorry. They have to do what I want first.

[Screwy]

On 10/10/2021 at 8:39 PM, l33tmaan said:

Something I just came up with:

1. You right-click a log with an axe to invisibly make it enter "chopping mode", kind of like with a chisel. 
2. When you're holding an axe and target a log in 'chopping mode', the Seraph holds the axe perpendicular to the log, ready to chop. 

I simply love that idea. But with that much work effort, firewood needs a far longer burntime and trees need to be more difficult to chop, for balancing reasons. I don't like to spend half an in game day to chop my firewood for the night. 

The in-depth mining could be a cool feature for extracting gems of better quality, but despite of that, it is to far off from being useful, I think. And it sounds pretty tuff to program that feature. Maybe cool for a mod. 

[Windego]

I'm all for it.
I like the idea for mining as well as the interactive tree chopping.
What about visually seeing the trees fall down after that action? And the side you chop mat, influencing the side it falls?

... Though thinking of it again, I imagine you'd have to then treat the entire tree as an entity for the duration of its fall.

[Screwy]

That's just what I suggested some days ago. The blocks of the tree should simply turn into falling block entitys, before they fall into items.

[Hal13]

On 10/10/2021 at 12:44 PM, Streetwind said:

[...] I've never needed more than one tin vein.[...]

as i've never really found a real tin vein (i mean i even had the metal settings to max and only found a few ore blocks of tin, same with silver and gold) ever in my few hundred hours over 5 worlds, i'd appreciate getting more out of it, maybe then i actually would do some bronze stuff? because tin was that sparse always, i normally go straight from copper to iron after i found enough tin for a hammer, a pickaxe and an anvil...

On 10/10/2021 at 1:12 PM, PhotriusPyrelus said:

I'd love for mining to have some kind of minigame, but I'm not sure this is the way.  Only because it introduces a completely unique mechanic for breaking one specific block type (ores) compared with every other block in the game.  Otherwise it does seem pretty cool.

i mean that mechanic could be used for all stone blocks, where now the block disappears and a few stones drop, breaking part of the block then might drop a stone breaking another part another stone, etc. maybe hitting the stone part of an ore block drops a stone until the block would be mined as if it was a stone block and then a few (the minimum) nuggets would drop too, while hitting on the metal parts of the block might give a nugget until the maximum number of nuggets is extracted breaking the block and dropping only a single stone...

 

On 10/19/2021 at 6:54 PM, Screwy said:

I simply love that idea. But with that much work effort, firewood needs a far longer burntime and trees need to be more difficult to chop, for balancing reasons. I don't like to spend half an in game day to chop my firewood for the night. 

The in-depth mining could be a cool feature for extracting gems of better quality, but despite of that, it is to far off from being useful, I think. And it sounds pretty tuff to program that feature. Maybe cool for a mod. 

the chopping mode was meant for chopping down a tree not for firewood, though the block that gets chopped might give firewood instead of a log block, or depending on the way you chop you still might get the log block (chop low/high enough you get a log chop through the middle you only get firewood)...

 

On 10/20/2021 at 9:02 PM, Windego said:

.. Though thinking of it again, I imagine you'd have to then treat the entire tree as an entity for the duration of its fall.

though implementing something doing this job here, would get us closer to moving structures like airships and wagons, maybe trains later...

[Windego]

1 hour ago, Hal13 said:

though implementing something doing this job here, would get us closer to moving structures like airships and wagons, maybe trains later...

Well, currently the mod Create from the game Minecraft has accomplished quite a lot in terms of being able to give people the freedom of designing their own contraptions.
I would be quite pleased to see something similar happen with VS at one point. At no particular pace of course as I'd imagine it's no easy feat. But still.. You have a point there. From treating falling trees as entities, it's no longer galaxies apart from the concept of treating made contraptions as entities. From there on out more ideas may flourish.

[Ambulate In Somnis]

On 10/10/2021 at 8:49 AM, l33tmaan said:

I've heard complaints that the mining system is currently rather boring. Prospecting has a bit of a learning curve to it, and non-iron ore veins tend to disappear in a few trips, especially if you're playing with any mods that have larger backpacks or really take advantage of Carry Capacity. The actual mining process itself is... whatever. You right click the block, collect nuggets. That's fine.

I propose something that involves the player more and utilizes the voxel system that makes chiseling so neat: this involves making two changes to ore blocks (ore generation is a different topic). 

1. Ore blocks must be "mined" multiple times to fully deplete them, sort of like a resource node from an RTS game. This means players can stick around mining the same ore for a longer period of time, but still be appropriately rewarded over that period. Now, even if you find a few specs of tin, you still might need a trip or two to fully deplete the block.
2. Depending on what voxel on the ore the player targets, they receive varying amounts of nuggets once they are done mining it. In the picture below, for example, striking the actual copper bits gives you more nuggets than mining the bare rock. If you want to get especially in-depth, chunks of the rock can disappear when you mine it, revealing more 'bonus' nodes to strike. Not only would this look cool, but it would trigger the reward centers in our monkey brains more than mindlessly holding right-click on the whole block - now we can mindlessly hold right-click over specific areas of the block! 

This doesn't really touch on what numbers would be ideal with this kind of setup, but I think it would be a lot more involving and interesting than what we've got now.

maybe make that digging voxel by voxel like chizel?? if touched voxels has texture/flags - it gains some nuggets. If no other voxels flags - drops rock
what you think about it?

[l33tmaan]

I'd like that too!

[Ambulate In Somnis]

On 11/12/2021 at 9:51 PM, Hal13 said:

as i've never really found a real tin vein (i mean i even had the metal settings to max and only found a few ore blocks of tin, same with silver and gold) ever in my few hundred hours over 5 worlds, i'd appreciate getting more out of it, maybe then i actually would do some bronze stuff? because tin was that sparse always, i normally go straight from copper to iron after i found enough tin for a hammer, a pickaxe and an anvil...

I have tried that in mod FahlOres, but i hadnt much time to support and continue that. 
pale ores should be part of the world, because they are natural deposits that man has melted down to extract copper and obtained natural bronze from arsenic or antimony and other related additives.
 Also, if we take into account the history, then iron replaced bronze for a long time and only because it was more common, and copper and tin ended up in a convenient for handicraft remelting. To improve the quality of the resulting iron, people contrived and thought of Damascus steel (repeated reforging of iron layers) and carbonization.
Therefore, you need to introduce additional materials for obtaining bronze and reduce the importance of raw iron and increase the importance of steel, add the mechanics of reforging the terrible raw iron.
So that metals are condenced on deep wells and geysers.
***Looking nostalgically towards Skyrim***

Edited July 8, 2022 by Ambulate In Somnis

[Hal13]

On 11/12/2021 at 9:42 PM, Windego said:

Well, currently the mod Create from the game Minecraft has accomplished quite a lot in terms of being able to give people the freedom of designing their own contraptions.

That may be true (though create does have its flaws too, especially as moving on a moving entity may cause the player to glitch through it) and I HAD BEEN playing Minecraft since InDev, but as I will never accept the ToS for the Microsoft Account (and never had to accept anything saying the license agreement could be changed onesidedly) I'm locked out of the game (still looking for a pro bono lawyer (I'm not sure about the term, I mean the kind of lawyer taking a cut of the resulting compensations, I wouldn't mind them taking 100% if I get a way to play at least the versions before they forced migration) to take this case of mass disseisin).

For multiblock vehicles like ships it might be better to define them as another dimension with its borders being transparent portals, an entity of the same appearance would move in the normal VS world, while being on board meant the player character is moving in another. Maybe one had to construct a model of the ship first via something resembling chiseling...

[Professor Dragon]

On 10/10/2021 at 4:49 PM, l33tmaan said:

I've heard complaints that the mining system is currently rather boring. Prospecting has a bit of a learning curve to it

I like your suggestion, I like the thought that has gone into it. I love the image you've mocked up.

Having said that, I think your opening line about prospecting having a learning curve to it hits the real main problem with mining - at least for me. And I'm guessing for a lot of other "new" players also.

I'm several years into a world, have watched a few YouTube videos, and have yet to make prospecting work for me. I'm still firmly in the copper age, and have yet to find enough ores to progress further.

I'd prefer to see a better in game "tutorial", or maybe "guide" might be a better word, for using prospecting. I wouldn't mind a grumpy old miner turning up at one of the Traders' camps (after you've leveled a bit), offering to take you into the hills and showing you how it's done. (For 80% of your first haul, of course.)

[Maelstrom]

Thinking about the premise of this idea, I'm thinking that mining voxels out of the block would make mining even more tedious thereby decreasing the fun factor.

[l33tmaan]

How does more player engagement make mining more tedious? Right now you just hold right click and press W.

[Maelstrom]

Went back to re-read your OP and saw that a single block would likely produce multiple nuggets.  So, I was wrong that it would be more tedious, but their is a problem that your idea would compress ores to a small number of blocks (making prospecting even more difficult) or inflating the resource node to potentially ridiculous amounts (a single surface copper node providing copper for literally decades of play, never mind iron deposits).

[l33tmaan]

Prospecting! That's a great point. I hadn't considered that you'd need to make ore rarer to compensate for the increased yield. 

[Maelstrom]

The alternative is what I was thinking you meant - mining voxels to get the same number of nuggets as produced in current mining mechanic.

[l33tmaan]

No, I was thinking of getting 2 or 3 times as many nuggets or something. Maybe we just need more stuff to use metal for!

[Ambulate In Somnis]

More mechanisms, like vertical oriented metal gears (with frictional metals like brass), chain transition, rope trancievers, winch and rotary mechanisms with surfaces - metal consumption. Traps, horse plow, any things for households. 

Edited July 17, 2022 by Ambulate In Somnis