Do we really need a combat overhaul? What are your opinions on it?

[Josiah Gibbonson]

1 hour ago, LadyWYT said:

It's one thing to say it; it's another thing entirely to execute those movements smoothly without getting smacked, while still being able to land your own hits. Are they terribly complex concepts? No, but timing is the key, and something that only comes via practice.

Hence why I say the system is "easy to pick up, difficult to master". The concepts themselves are simple enough for anyone to pick up and start having fun with the game. But players will need to put in the effort to figuring out the timing of when to step back, when to move in for attack, and when to release a projectile for maximum range and damage.

Maybe my years and years of minecraft combat shenanigans make these concepts easier to me specifically...probably harder for new folk. But if you were that new to the genre, you'd think minecraft would be your training grounds of sorts.

[LadyWYT]

19 minutes ago, Josiah Gibbonson said:

Maybe my years and years of minecraft combat shenanigans make these concepts easier to me specifically...probably harder for new folk. But if you were that new to the genre, you'd think minecraft would be your training grounds of sorts.

It probably is just an experience factor, which I think would be true of any system. Though it is why I agree with some of @Thorfinn's earlier points regarding the influx of new players complaining about dying to wolves and the like too easily. Just because a combat system is relatively simple doesn't mean it can't kick one's behind...especially if one gets complacent. I daresay there's more than a few that come to Vintage Story from the other block game, expecting a similar experience, that end up getting a rude awakening rather quickly.

[Josiah Gibbonson]

4 minutes ago, LadyWYT said:

It probably is just an experience factor, which I think would be true of any system. Though it is why I agree with some of @Thorfinn's earlier points regarding the influx of new players complaining about dying to wolves and the like too easily. Just because a combat system is relatively simple doesn't mean it can't kick one's behind...especially if one gets complacent. I daresay there's more than a few that come to Vintage Story from the other block game, expecting a similar experience, that end up getting a rude awakening rather quickly.

I Just can't wrap my head around all the complex systems in this game, and combat is where we're like "oh no, can't make that complex, new players wouldn't like it" . . .like come on, you think new players like the incredibly long, and detailed task of getting their first copper tools? Or even making a single piece of leather??

 

"If you only do what is easy, your life will be hard..." 

 

I don't mind combat being simple...I just wish it was more in depth so we can have more weapon variety. (Like weaknesses/resistances at the very LEAST) 

[Teh Pizza Lady]

6 hours ago, Josiah Gibbonson said:

I think a simple "dodge" button could do wonders.

yeah it's called pressing A or D.

done. problem solved. case closed. didn't even need to change the game. why is this thread still going again?

[Josiah Gibbonson]

27 minutes ago, traugdor said:

yeah it's called pressing A or D.

done. problem solved. case closed. didn't even need to change the game. why is this thread still going again?

 

Because some of us would argue pressing "A or D" while sprinting is still too slow if one wanted to add faster enemy projectiles. 

[Josiah Gibbonson]

7 hours ago, Hexalan said:

I would counter and say, why does every good building game have to be turned into a PvP combat sim?  I'm not here for the combat.  I'm here for a beautiful world to build in with a story and lore to seek out.  Combat is secondary.  And invincibility?  I already have that in the shield.  It works well enough that I'm not overly concerned with mobs.  Yes, you have to stop and regroup, maybe take off your armor and heal up.  That's more realistic than the invincible, dual-wielding, terror tank.  There are plenty of games where combat is the focus.  It's rather tiring and bland if that's the only way to play a game.

I...really don't know why everyone immediately jumps to the bandwagon that if you improve combat, suddenly the game revolves around it. I despise PvP with a passion. Wouldn't touch it with a fifty foot pole. PvE on the other hand? Loveeee it. Live for it. How is it you guys don't mind a million steps to make a simple bit of leather, or "complex" crop rotation, but the moment making combat a wee bit more complex in and of itself instead of oversimplified, everyone loses their minds and thinks "oh no, it's dark souls now!"

 

[Michael Gates]

Y'know, they added bowtorns (a change *within* the combat system) three months ago, and still aren't even close to having things back to "scary but possible" yet. How long do y'all think it's going to take if they actually redo all the mechanics? How many builds of "wolves just eat you now, oh wait, now it's shivers, now it's elephants" do you want to sit through?

I don't value any of this enough that I want to make the game unplayable for a year over it.

[LadyWYT]

1 minute ago, Josiah Gibbonson said:

I...really don't know why everyone immediately jumps to the bandwagon that if you improve combat, suddenly the game revolves around it.

Just my general observation, but the ones that tend to push the hardest with "combat too easy/boring, it needs to be a lot harder and more complex!" seem to be after a game where combat is the main focus. Something along the lines of Monster Hunter, Dark Souls, etc.

Generally speaking, games that have challenging combat with a lot of nuance tend to place most of their focus on the combat, with everything else as side tasks.

4 minutes ago, Josiah Gibbonson said:

How is it you guys don't mind a million steps to make a simple bit of leather, or "complex" crop rotation, but the moment making combat a wee bit more complex in and of itself instead of oversimplified, everyone loses their minds and thinks "oh no, it's dark souls now!"

Combat is a different beast than the other chores the game has for the player to do. Farming, building, leatherworking, forging, etc. are all easily done according to whatever pace the player decides to tackle them at. Time, however, is not a luxury one has in combat. Your health pool is finite, as are your healing items. If there's something hostile after you, you need to either fight and kill it, or run away. If you don't manage either, you die and respawn(assuming you weren't playing hardcore), potentially without some of your stuff. Ideally, you're avoiding unnecessary fights in the first place since burning through your resources isn't a great idea...which is fairly realistic, really.

In any case, the more complex you make the combat, the more pressure you're going to put on the player in order for them to successfully fight, which ends up shifting gameplay focus to combat rather than other gameplay loops. Not really ideal for what Vintage Story seems to want to be. As I've said before(or at least tried to, anyway), there's some room for improvement--hitboxes and mob AI need some dejanking, and a few more weapon choices couldn't hurt. However, I also think what we have already is solid, so if only the dejanking happens and the other is left to mods, I'm fine with that too.

Quote

As is, the character is too sluggish for more advanced attack patterns, you'd absolutely get your butt kicked in. A fast, unblockable projectile coming towards you? Well guess what, no way to strafe, can't jump over it, and heaven help you if you think crouching will do something

Tagging this from earlier...if it's fast enough that it can't be blocked, it shouldn't be able to be dodged either. Ranged attacks that can't be blocked or dodged are exceptionally frustrating to deal with, so I wouldn't call them good design in most cases.

The ranged attacks that we face currently can be dodged, though it's easier to block them with a shield. Dodging them, however, requires a lot of practice in order to nail the timing on your movement. I'll also note that you will need to be holding the sprint key, in most cases, if you're going to attempt it.

Ironically, there actually is a pretty cool "dodge mechanic" that comes in chapter two, which is tied to the unique qualities of seraphs. That's something we could certainly see utilized more in the future, though it requires extremely specific conditions to achieve that kind of mechanic. So I wouldn't expect to see that kind of thing outside of select story locations, unless it were to be gated behind a wearable Jonas device.

[Josiah Gibbonson]

17 minutes ago, LadyWYT said:

Just my general observation, but the ones that tend to push the hardest with "combat too easy/boring, it needs to be a lot harder and more complex!" seem to be after a game where combat is the main focus. Something along the lines of Monster Hunter, Dark Souls, etc.

Well, it's certainly one of my favorite gameplay loops. So, it'd at least be "my" main focus...Definitely would liven up temporal storms for one such as me! 

 

19 minutes ago, LadyWYT said:

Combat is a different beast than the other chores the game has for the player to do. Farming, building, leatherworking, forging, etc. are all easily done according to whatever pace the player decides to tackle them at. Time, however, is not a luxury one has in combat. Your health pool is finite, as are your healing items. If there's something hostile after you, you need to either fight and kill it, or run away. If you don't manage either, you die and respawn(assuming you weren't playing hardcore), potentially without some of your stuff. Ideally, you're avoiding unnecessary fights in the first place since burning through your resources isn't a great idea...which is fairly realistic, really.

I didn't think of this...a good point! But unfortunate. When I'm all armored up I want to kill some things. Early game we're in agreement! I suppose not everybody makes a base right at world spawn.

 

21 minutes ago, LadyWYT said:

Tagging this from earlier...if it's fast enough that it can't be blocked, it shouldn't be able to be dodged either

Well, say a huge boulder hurling towards you. Your shield won't do squat, but a dodge might save you. 

 

Or like, melting acid. Definitely don't want it eating away at your shield. 

 

23 minutes ago, LadyWYT said:

Ironically, there actually is a pretty cool "dodge mechanic" that comes in chapter two, which is tied to the unique qualities of seraphs. That's something we could certainly see utilized more in the future, though it requires extremely specific conditions to achieve that kind of mechanic. So I wouldn't expect to see that kind of thing outside of select story locations, unless

Can't wait! Haven't gotten to any of the chapters yet. Still in late copper age with my uncle. 

[LadyWYT]

1 hour ago, Josiah Gibbonson said:

Well, say a huge boulder hurling towards you. Your shield won't do squat, but a dodge might save you. 

1 hour ago, Josiah Gibbonson said:

Or like, melting acid. Definitely don't want it eating away at your shield. 

Both fair points I hadn't considered. Regarding boulders, we kinda have that, I suppose, in the form of the cave-in mechanic, and the first boss fight. I don't know that I would make boulders much of a mechanic outside of specific story locations though, outside of the pure decoration that we already have, that is. Of course, in the instance of a boulder hurtling at you, it's not the speed that's the problem as much as it is the mass. The boulder will be moving slowly enough for you to be able to dodge, and attempting to block it makes no sense given that it has enough mass to easily crush you underneath.

As for the acid, I would also chalk that up to a boss ability or other rare location-specific enemy. I'd also note that if the stuff eats through armor, you definitely do not want it touching your skin either, so wearing armor is still likely better than going nude. Maybe you could have some sort of counterplay with an alchemy system, and simply drink a potion to render yourself immune to the effects for a short time, but I'm not sure that really fits the style of the game. The other drawback to burning through a player's gear durability like that is that it limits how much they can really accomplish on that outing. For a one-time boss fight it's fine, since they'll be having a relatively uneventful trip back to base to rest and plan their next moves, but for more mundane enemies it likely ends up being a frustrating slog with more than one trip to repair and resupply, unless they sacrificed inventory space to bring repair materials with them.

In contrast, with the current system, armor has enough durability to last a comfortable time for an adventure, provided that you equipped the right tier for the enemy tier that you expect to be facing. Lower tier armors can defend against higher tier attacks, of course--it's better than nothing. But they won't protect you as much and won't last nearly as long as you might need them to.

1 hour ago, Josiah Gibbonson said:

Can't wait! Haven't gotten to any of the chapters yet. Still in late copper age with my uncle. 

I think you'll have fun with the story content. And I'd wager the combat will be a bit more interesting in the story locations, even if you're just facing "basic" monsters. Environment makes a pretty big impact on how easy or difficult a fight is, and if the setting is not in your favor even the most basic of enemies can be dangerous.

Edited March 31, 2025 by LadyWYT
inventory

[Broccoli Clock]

19 hours ago, Josiah Gibbonson said:

On the contrary, wouldn't it make more sense to overhaul combat early so all new mobs and ai added could revolve around that, instead of making everything dated the moment it enters the fray, by extension creating more work with how much would need to be changed? 

There are two answers to this, a very long and detailed one relating to development methodologies and resource management, while the other is a simpler broader concept. I'll go for the latter just now, but happy to drop into the former.

In short, if you update certain things piecemeal, without the intended game functionality being added, is only going to add to the development process when you need to come back and amend it. Say, for example, you introduced an improved way to cover terrain. That's nothing to do with combat right? Well, yes, it does, as player movement would be one of the key elements within the algorithm. It would make more sense to create a generic combat "class" apply it to all mob/animals, then once the systems are fully fleshed out you then re-evaluate how those changes affect the combat and apply those findings to all mob/animals.

Just to clarify, this comes from my own experience, both of developing games (many years ago, btw!) and managing large code base projects that have been developed over years. I have no specific "in the know" knowledge. I've not spoken, as far as I am aware, with any of the devs so I know as much as you do when it comes to the development process they are undergoing.

 

Edited March 31, 2025 by Broccoli Clock

[TFT]

13 hours ago, Josiah Gibbonson said:

I Just can't wrap my head around all the complex systems in this game, and combat is where we're like "oh no, can't make that complex, new players wouldn't like it" . . .like come on, you think new players like the incredibly long, and detailed task of getting their first copper tools? Or even making a single piece of leather??

 

"If you only do what is easy, your life will be hard..." 

 

I don't mind combat being simple...I just wish it was more in depth so we can have more weapon variety. (Like weaknesses/resistances at the very LEAST) 

Simplicity isn't a bad thing, but it needs to feel good to play.

The issue with making combat more "complex" is that it's not a system that you can just make like any other of the game's complex systems. When combat begins, it takes your full undivided attention until you deal with the problem either by fighting, running away, or dying. Dying in itself is incredibly punishing: your HP gets slashed making dying even easier and you've likely lost a ton of gear. It feels much worse when you've died to a cheap shot like stealth bears, getting pelted by drifters throwing stones willy nilly, a shiver janking into you at full speed, or a bowtorn shot out the dark. "Punishing" cannot be said for other systems. If you mess up smithing you're at worst wasting an ingot, if your crops died from cold you still get the seeds back, or if your food spoils you've lost some easily regainable resources and you can still do stuff with the rot.

Non-combat systems, while complex, have "reward" too. You feel rewarded for finally getting your first metal tools, and getting a saw and chisel opens up the world of building for you. Making leather is also an incredible stepping stone as you can finally have breathing room in your inventory and lets you make the best armors. Combat's reward is… a few flax fibers for a dozen drifters and maaybe a temporal gear once in a blue moon.

Overhauling combat is not as simple as adding fancy moves and extra weapons either, there's a lot of extra variables involved like terrain, movement, visibility, and enemy quantity and variety. The player is only half of the equation and the enemies we face aren't up to snuff for anything grander. I get that combat feels like you're just statchecking each other, but adding "complexity" onto jank is just going to create more unfun jank.

As it is now, this just isn't the game for a bigger focus on a combat system. It's focus is on being a survival block game and the dungeons/story locations we do have make up such a small percentile of what we do in the game there's not a lot you're adding with expanded combat mechanics. As opposed to something like Hytale (release never ever) or Valheim where combat and exploration takes a larger focus and there is value in creating complexity.

The place to start is making what we have not feel so clunky, then you can look towards expanding combat related content. Personally, I'd like a system that works well for both PvP and PvE with a high skill ceiling, but first I'd rather have something that isn't a chore at the best of times and frustrating at the worst.

[Josiah Gibbonson]

48 minutes ago, TFT said:

The place to start is making what we have not feel so clunky, then you can look towards expanding combat related content. Personally, I'd like a system that works well for both PvP and PvE with a high skill ceiling, but first I'd rather have something that isn't a chore at the best of times and frustrating at the worst.

I suppose so. With improved hitboxes and AI, and a few new drifter subclasses to diversify it, combat currently really wouldn't be all that bad. At bare minumim though, I wish there were resistances and weaknesses. . .maybe even parts of hitboxes being "weakpoints" to reward more calculated hunting. 

 

Currently the three monsters we see most are:

 

Drifters, the regular derpy bois. Melee and ranged (please for the love of gears improve their ai so they just lunge or something, not grab a stone FROM MY WOODEN FLOOR and spam chuck it at me)

 

Shivers: The fast, spider-gollum bois. Somehow too fat for going through a 1x2 entrance. Would be cool if they could squeeeeze through

 

Bowtorn: Generic long-ranged boi

 

Numbers, speed, and ranged have all been covered by these (if the locusts count, they come by numbers AND climb walls )

 

I wonder what gameplay mechanics new variants would cover!

 

 

 

 

 

[Thorfinn]

Combat has been improving piecemeal for a while. 1.17 brought bears and, I think, 1.18, drifters with inerrant rock throwing. 1.20 both shivers and bowtorn. As you note, archetypes. Until this very version, running around buck naked with spears was a perfectly viable strategy to deal with even late game temporal storms.

The same is true of other systems still with just archetypes, like crops. But some look pretty well fleshed out, like clay and smithing. Oh, and goats.

I have a similar background to @Broccoli Clock, at least in my early career, and concur with what he said. Archetypes are common at certain stages of development, which makes me believe that, though the word "combat" has disappeared from the roadmap, there might still be some modest changes in the works, but probably nothing on the scale you seem to want. In particular, I'd doubt "critical hit boxes" are in the pipe, because hitting those are mostly luck, not skill anyway, because of your accuracy variability. That would not improve the game, just make it more of a crap shoot that can only make that part easier.

What I would expect at this stage is not a plethora of variants, but rather a blending of the existing ones, with the intent of coming up with a good mix that achieves complexity of combined arms. Figuring out ratios of the three existing archetypes such that they cancel out the tactics that work perfectly well when facing just one type at a time.

[Josiah Gibbonson]

9 minutes ago, Thorfinn said:

because hitting those are mostly luck, not skill anyway, because of your accuracy variability. That would not improve the game, just make it more of a crap shoot that can only make that part easier.

I was mostly imagining how most hunting games do it, where you should aim for the vitals for "more damage" per-se. Would only really be noticeable for hunting and boss fights. It appears "critical hit" boxes are only really useful for people using a bow, or maaaaybe a spear.

[Maelstrom]

On 3/30/2025 at 11:07 AM, Josiah Gibbonson said:

Like, ask yourself, if combat is lacking, why do YOU play other games for their combat aspect? Because combat in THIS game sucks! Compared to how detailed everything in this game is, the combat is for toddlers. 

I don't play other games for combat.  I don't like combat heavy games, but don't mind combat in a game like VS.  I think Tyron will tweak combat a bit, but I don't think he wants VS to be combat intensive.  As you said, want better combat?  Then play a different game.  Why does VS combat have to be better than it currently is?

There are a LOT of players who would probably stop playing VS if the combat was more like other combat intensive games.  I don't think that's what Tyron and the devs have envisioned for VS.

[cjc813]

After playing a little bit more today, I kind of agree with the folks who say combat feels janky.

I think it's a combination of factors.

1) weapon animations take quite a while, and 2) the mobs jitter all over the place, even the slow ones like drifters. This results in a lot of swinging and, during the swing animation, the mob will zag and you'll miss and have to adjust. It's not *awful,* but honestly, swinging and missing and swinging and missing while a drifter just derps about aimlessly feels kinda bad.

I honestly think it's working as intended with shivers. They're obviously meant to dodge your attacks and run and ambush and stuff, and it makes them interesting to fight. But, with drifters and bowtorn at least, having them jitter and derp around while you swing at them doesn't feel great.

I honestly think 3 things could be tweaked.

First, make the mobs less erratic. The ai/pathfinding seems to just go in random directions and change directions for no apparent reason. They just feel weird and spastic and not really aggressive enough. Lotta times they just end up jittering in a corner while you try to connect.

Second, I think melee animations could be a bit faster. Also make the second half of the animation cancelable, so you can switch to a ranged weapon if the most recent hit makes the mob run.

Third, implement a collision-based system where if your weapon's hitbox connects at the right time, you've landed a hit.

These changes, especially the first two, would probably make the combat feel more fluid and less janky without changing the overall mechanics.

[Josiah Gibbonson]

1 hour ago, Maelstrom said:

Why does VS combat have to be better than it currently is?

Opens up more little branching paths, if you ask me. At the very least enemies should have weaknesses and resistances so there can be melee weapon variety outside the silly-looking sickle thing we get or spears.

[LadyWYT]

4 hours ago, Thorfinn said:

In particular, I'd doubt "critical hit boxes" are in the pipe, because hitting those are mostly luck, not skill anyway, because of your accuracy variability.

4 hours ago, Josiah Gibbonson said:

I was mostly imagining how most hunting games do it, where you should aim for the vitals for "more damage" per-se. Would only really be noticeable for hunting and boss fights. It appears "critical hit" boxes are only really useful for people using a bow, or maaaaybe a spear.

One game that has a feature like that is Mount & Blade: Warband. If you manage to get a headshot on your opponent, it's almost guaranteed to be an instant kill(same applies if they land one on you!). While headshots are very satisfying to land, they're also incredibly difficult to do in the chaos of battle, even if your character is built specifically for ranged combat. Most of the time, headshots end up being left to lucky shots, rather than actual skill.

I could see specific "vulnerable areas" being a mechanic for a boss fight, but boss fights are a different beast than standard combat. As for hunting...the main problem I see applying it to hunting is that it ends up giving Blackguards more power with less drawback. One of the big drawbacks to the Blackguard class is the ranged combat penalty, as it makes them ineffective hunters in the early game(it takes two spears to kill a rabbit). That paired with the increased hunger rate means they have a harder time keeping themselves fed. I suppose you could simply switch the ranged penalty for something else(though I'm not sure what, maybe increased range of detection by creatures?) if a mechanic like that were added. Definitely something to consider when adding new mechanics though.

[Josiah Gibbonson]

6 minutes ago, LadyWYT said:

Most of the time, headshots end up being left to lucky shots, rather than actual skill.

Surprisingly in TheHunter: COTW most of my headshots never kill...skull is too thick. I aim for the heart. But, if it was an insta-kill, it'd make sense why it'd be hard to hit.

 

But yeah, in the chaos of battle, it'd be a rather useless mechanic- why I mentioned beforehand it'd mostly just be something to reward good aim during stealth, like on hunts.

[Broccoli Clock]

While I wouldn't expect a root and branch update to the combat either (a) ever, or (b) for some time, the one thing that would be nice at this moment is the "sweeping mechanic" for the falx. It may be in the game, but I've not managed to achieve it.

I imagine most people understand how a sweeping mechanic works, but for those unsure it calculates the swing of a weapon and its hit radius, then it calculates which (if any) enemies within that calculated area are damaged. Those closer and more central will get more damage, those either to the periphery or at the start or end of the swing will be damaged less.

 

[Thorfinn]

Presumably the drop rate for creatures was intentional, by which I mean intentionally low. Let's say a sweep mechanic were implemented that made things 8 times easier.   Would you really be OK dropping things from 1 fiber every 5 drifters to 1 in 40 to keep that balance? Bears dropping 2 bushmeat and less than half of a huge hide?

[Josiah Gibbonson]

21 minutes ago, Thorfinn said:

Presumably the drop rate for creatures was intentional, by which I mean intentionally low. Let's say a sweep mechanic were implemented that made things 8 times easier.   Would you really be OK dropping things from 1 fiber every 5 drifters to 1 in 40 to keep that balance? Bears dropping 2 bushmeat and less than half of a huge hide?

Obviously if a sweep mechanic was implemented creature AI would have to get a boost to counterbalance it

[Thorfinn]

And equally obviously, now bows and spears and slings also have to be rebalanced. And we are back to a major rework for the sake of,... what, exactly? Those who prefer a more advanced combat system can easily add one.

The problem with interrelated systems is that they are interrelated. The more complex the system, the less ability there is to make a "simple" change.

[EDIT]

What I'm getting at is that I suspect that as the game evolves into its final form, we will get more archetype reskins, mostly cosmetic, in the name of diversity. If a major rework were in the plans, and the current weapons and enemies and systems merely placeholders, I'd expect "Rework Combat" on the roadmap.

So a halberd is just a spear that might possibly be a different tier, which would only come into effect in PvP. There may be special attacks, like a bola's chance to entangle or any of several weapon's disarm chance, which would be tied into the status effects system in the works.

Edited April 1, 2025 by Thorfinn

[Teh Pizza Lady]

On 3/30/2025 at 7:44 PM, Josiah Gibbonson said:

 

Because some of us would argue pressing "A or D" while sprinting is still too slow if one wanted to add faster enemy projectiles. 

then find a different way to fight? Use a shield maybe? Maybe don't fight! This isn't a horror combat game, afterall... it's a survival crafting game.

We're lucky there's any combat at all.